Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Except Crimean union with Russia has already been recognized by other states. Syria, Armenia, Venezuela, Kazakhstan... hell even Afghanistan recognizes it.

So its not the same at all.

Close Russian allies and associates recognizing their seizure of Crimea? I never would have imagined that, I guess it's legal and legitimate after all.

Don't move the goal posts. North Cyprus is not recognized by anyone other than Turkey. I have thus proved the comparison to be a false one. Whether such other states are Russian allies is irrelevant.

[Baltenstein]

Really Afghanistan? I didn't really expect that. I know relations have been steadily developing over recent years, but didn't think it would be that much.

Sooner or later, NATO will move out of Afghanistan, and Karzai will need somebody else to provide him with military equipment and training.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Really Afghanistan? I didn't really expect that. I know relations have been steadily developing over recent years, but didn't think it would be that much.

Sooner or later, NATO will move out of Afghanistan, and Karzai will need somebody else to provide him with military equipment and training.

I suspect the US will keep the funding up, lest they make Afghanistan look like a total abject disaster from start to finish.

[Scholmeria]

Looks like its over. Russia gets crimea. anyone else think different?

As long no weteen or other country recognise the so-called Republic of Crimea or its referendun the Russian annexation has nevee happened. Crimea is still part of Ukraine.

[Lemanrussland]

Close Russian allies and associates recognizing their seizure of Crimea? I never would have imagined that, I guess it's legal and legitimate after all.

Don't move the goal posts. North Cyprus is not recognized by anyone other than Turkey. I have thus proved the comparison to be a false one. Whether such other states are Russian allies is irrelevant.

The comparison is still apt, despite your priggish objections. Crimea will remain a partially recognized territory, with Russia and her close friends recognizing the annexation, and the rest of the world not.

If you want another example, it's also similar to Abkhazia or Transnistria, which are also partially recognized Russian puppet states.

[Costa Fierro]

I was asking what would happen in case of unthinkable - when any politician calls for the nuclear extermination of millions and uses racist (like totally not politically correct) expression. According to your answer "in the West" this is just unthinkable.

Yeah, judging by your posting history, I'm assuming said quotes are either heresay or pure bullshit. And it's not "unthinkable", because expressing views and then carrying them out are two totally different things.

Meet Yulia Timoshenko - beloved by the West politician!

The West's relationship with Timoshenko is ambiguous. Much like it's relationship with Ukraine as a whole. It's really only in the interests of Europe because of the gas pipelines that pass through it, not because "the West" as if it's some sort of hivemind, approves of whatever kind of "democracy" Ukraine has. The Ukraine and Russia are to democracy what North Korea and Saudi Arabia are to human rights.

There are basically two types of reaction to Tymosheko's words 1) "It's all fake! Our lovely Julia loves democracy and human rights!" or 2) "She is totally justified! Common rules do not apply here!". So I ask - is this kind of behavior excusable in the West? Judging the reaction of some NSGers here - yeah, double standards are real, alive and kicking.

I really want to know exactly how you came to that conclusion.

Oh, so for your unenlightened eye (because such comments show rour totall ignorance in the history of the region) the situation in Palestina and Donbass is the same, right?

No. I don't even know why you're even saying that. I used Israel as an analogy. I wasn't trying to compare the two together,

It is not "just being angry".

Yes it is. You are angry that "the West" is displeased about a country invading, occupying and annexing the internationally recognized territory of another sovereign state.

We are talking about politicians who (surprise-surprise) have a responsobility. They have not such luxery as acting according to emotions or even call for "questionable" actions out of spite.

What the actual fuck are you rambling on about?

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Really Afghanistan? I didn't really expect that. I know relations have been steadily developing over recent years, but didn't think it would be that much.

Sooner or later, NATO will move out of Afghanistan, and Karzai will need somebody else to provide him with military equipment and training.

That's true. Defense cooperation between the two has increased and with Afghanistan is right at the CSTO's doorstep, with saw increased Russian troops sent to Tajikistan for the very reason that NATO is leaving.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Except Crimean union with Russia has already been recognized by other states. Syria, Armenia, Venezuela, Kazakhstan... hell even Afghanistan recognizes it.

So its not the same at all.

Obviously Russia has a list of client states that Turkey hasn't, but other than that, it's the same.

So, like how USA convinced it's client states to recognize Kosovo? Face it, Russia is a great power and has allies around the world who will support their stance. Turkey is a regional power with an erratic leader and few real friends.

The two nations are very different, as is the situation of Cyprus and Crimea.

[Costa Fierro]

Don't move the goal posts. North Cyprus is not recognized by anyone other than Turkey. I have thus proved the comparison to be a false one. Whether such other states are Russian allies is irrelevant.

The comparison is still apt, despite your priggish objections. Crimea will remain a partially recognized territory, with Russia and her close friends recognizing the annexation, and the rest of the world not.

If you want another example, it's also similar to Abkhazia or Transnistria, which are also partially recognized Russian puppet states.

Transnistria isn't recognized by anyone at all. Not even Russia.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Looks like its over. Russia gets crimea. anyone else think different?

As long no weteen or other country recognise the so-called Republic of Crimea or its referendun the Russian annexation has nevee happened. Crimea is still part of Ukraine.

That is false. Regardless it doesn't matter if zero countries recognize or one hundred do, the reality is Crimea is not part of Ukraine anymore...it has zero control over it. Just like countries who do not recognize places like Kosovo or South Ossetia, doesn't change the reality that they are not part of Serbia or Georgia today.

[Lemanrussland]

Obviously Russia has a list of client states that Turkey hasn't, but other than that, it's the same.

So, like how USA convinced it's client states to recognize Kosovo? Face it, Russia is a great power and has allies around the world who will support their stance. Turkey is a regional power with an erratic leader and few real friends.

The two nations are very different, as is the situation of Cyprus and Crimea.

Most of the states which have recognized Kosovo cannot accurately be called "client states". Finland is not a client state of the US. Germany is not either. Allies, yes.

[Lemanrussland]

The comparison is still apt, despite your priggish objections. Crimea will remain a partially recognized territory, with Russia and her close friends recognizing the annexation, and the rest of the world not.

If you want another example, it's also similar to Abkhazia or Transnistria, which are also partially recognized Russian puppet states.

Transnistria isn't recognized by anyone at all. Not even Russia.

Transnistria isn't recognized by any fully (or even mostly) recognized states, but is recognized by Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and South Ossetia.

[Aterna]

Transnistria isn't recognized by anyone at all. Not even Russia.

Transnistria isn't recognized by any fully (or even mostly) recognized states, but is recognized by Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and South Ossetia.

That's just total wannabe states recognizing other wannabe states. I wonder if each have an embassy in Sealand.

[Costa Fierro]

Transnistria isn't recognized by anyone at all. Not even Russia.

Transnistria isn't recognized by any fully (or even mostly) recognized states, but is recognized by Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and South Ossetia.

I don't think "recognition" by states that aren't even widely recognized themselves is legitimate in this case. Recognition in an international sense is probably legit if it's recognized by a UN member state.

[Costa Fierro]

So, like how USA convinced it's client states to recognize Kosovo?

Like Israel, who current do not recognize Kosovo as an independent state?

[European Socialist Republic]

So, like how USA convinced it's client states to recognize Kosovo?

Like Israel, who current do not recognize Kosovo as an independent state?

Ah, but Israel is not one of the USA's client states. The USA is a client state of Israel. *nods*

[Magna Libero]

Looks like its over. Russia gets crimea. anyone else think different?

Then there is this thing called 'Transnistria', which is a part of Moldova.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Looks like its over. Russia gets crimea. anyone else think different?

Then there is this thing called 'Transnistria', which is a part of Moldova.

Crimea is vital and very useful to Russia, worth the associated costs of taking it. Unlike Transnistria, which controlling and holding would be a nightmare considering it's position. Transnistria will remain how it is.

[Scholmeria]

As long no weteen or other country recognise the so-called Republic of Crimea or its referendun the Russian annexation has nevee happened. Crimea is still part of Ukraine.

That is false. Regardless it doesn't matter if zero countries recognize or one hundred do, the reality is Crimea is not part of Ukraine anymore...it has zero control over it. Just like countries who do not recognize places like Kosovo or South Ossetia, doesn't change the reality that they are not part of Serbia or Georgia today.

Crimea could easily declare itself to be part of the Klingon empire or the center of the Milky way but without a de iure recognition from the international community it has not a legal weight. The situation with Crimea is as if a person starts to claim that he is a giraffe and wants that other people acknowledge that, but the people are sane and know exactly that he is a human and not a girrafe. so the people refuse to accept the "reality" of that person.

The situation between Republic of Kosova and "South Ossetia" is not the same. The former is recognised by the most UN members with a tendecy of even more recognising it. Kosova was also born according to International law. "South Ossetia" in other hand is a phantom country recognised by 3 or 4 UN members. It was also not born according to international law nor does it has any legal basis like Kosova in the Yugoslav Constitution of 1974. Also, I cannot find "South Ossetia" in any reliable world map.

[Magna Libero]

Then there is this thing called 'Transnistria', which is a part of Moldova.

Crimea is vital and very useful to Russia, worth the associated costs of taking it. Unlike Transnistria, which controlling and holding would be a nightmare considering it's position. Transnistria will remain how it is.

Russia would probably have to steal more land from Ukraine in order to annex parts of Moldova also known as Transnistria.

[Baltenstein]

Crimea is vital and very useful to Russia, worth the associated costs of taking it. Unlike Transnistria, which controlling and holding would be a nightmare considering it's position. Transnistria will remain how it is.

Russia would probably have to steal more land from Ukraine in order to annex parts of Moldova also known as Transnistria.

They won't, since Transnistria has no economic or strategic value whatsoever.

[Scholmeria]

Russia would probably have to steal more land from Ukraine in order to annex parts of Moldova also known as Transnistria.

They won't, since Transnistria has no economic or strategic value whatsoever.

Transnistria could easily be a perfect off-shore zone but its leaders are not aware of that.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Russia would probably have to steal more land from Ukraine in order to annex parts of Moldova also known as Transnistria.

They won't, since Transnistria has no economic or strategic value whatsoever.

And we've already been over the logistical difficulties involved in invading a landlocked country with poor infrastructure which is surrounded on both sides by a NATO nation and Ukraine.

Because Russia is really desperate to get their hands on Moldova's strategically vital sunflower seed reserves.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Crimea could easily declare itself to be part of the Klingon empire or the center of the Milky way but a de iure recognition from the international community it has not a legal weight. The situation with Crimea is as if a person starts to claim that he is a giraffe and wants that other people acknowledge that, but the people are sane and not exactly that he is a human and not a girrafe.

The situation between Republic of Kosova and "South Ossetia" is not the same. The former is recognised by the most UN members with a tendecy of even more recognising it. Kosova was also born according to International law. "South Ossetia" in other hand is a phantom country recognised by 3 or 4 UN members. It was also not born according to international law nor does it has any legal basis like Kosova in the Yugoslav Constitution of 1974.

Way to miss the point, the point isn't the legal status of various nations being right or wrong. Which is irrelevant to the fact Crimea isn't apart Ukraine anymore in any meaningful sense. Ukraine has zero control over it, regardless if it should be legally part of it or not, dose not change the fact currently it is not part of Ukraine. Laws themselves are meaningless when those whom make them or are suppose to upheld do not have the power to enforce them with. Crimea is part of Russia now, morally/legally right or wrong, the fact is it is Russia who controls it again and that is not going to change since no one has the power and willing to prevent that at this time.

[Alien Space Bats]

It seems Tymoshenko did confirm the conversation took place (though she said the latter part of it was edited). Color me a bit surprised.

But yes, I don't exactly see how it isn't understandable. She's been a large proponent of friendly ties with Russia/Putin in the past, having part of the country conquered by them/him must be a rather brutal wakeup call. Not exactly prone to inspire a fawning attitude for the Russian Federation.

In fact, it's almost like having your country invaded can cause an outbreak of nationalist fervor that can even dip into extremism focused against the invaders. Who ever would have guessed (Besides me, like four hundred pages ago, in this thread's predecessor)? Great job breaking it, Putin/Russia. It's perfectly plausible, hell it's downright likely, Svoboda and Pravy Sektor become much more powerful forces in the country (hell, Tymoshenko's admission of the leak as being legit could even be viewed as her VOLUNTARILY associating herself with anti-Russia nationalist Ukrainian sentiment) now that Russia's carved out a chunk of their opposition and proved them entirely correct in their sentiments and concerns over Russian influence in government and designs on Ukrainian territory.

If anti-Russia sentiment takes off to a greater extent in Ukraine than it already had, Russia has no one to blame but themselves.

What makes you think that wasn't intentional? Ukrainian anger at Russia plays right into Russian hands.

I'm calling it right now: Russia's next move will come shortly after May 25th, after the coming elections result in substantial gains by the anti-Russian right. The election of a "fascist" anti-Russian government whose leadership has expressed the desire to hurt Russia for its actions in the Crimea will be used by Russia as casus belli for invading and occupying the rest of the Ukraine, on the grounds that the Ukrainian regime is a threat to Russians, both within its borders and in Russia proper.