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Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Geilinor
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Founded: Feb 20, 2010
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:23 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Geilinor wrote:No. Why?


Then why are you answering with a question?

Why are you asking me about the IDF? Are you going to accuse me of war crimes against the Palestinians and using that experience against Russians?
Last edited by Geilinor on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:23 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:They are not a Russian nationalist organisation, and even if they were, it is extremely undemocratic to suppress the nationalist organisations of a minority ethnic group (such as the Russians in Ukraine). As I said before, in a real democracy, parties don't get banned even when they openly advocate separatism (which the CPU does not actually advocate).


Nazi and neo-Nazi parties are banned in Germany. Does that make it "not a real democracy"?

Do any of those have large support in large parts of the country?
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:24 pm

Nazi and neo-Nazi parties are banned in Germany. Does that make it "not a real democracy"?


I certainly regard that as an undemocratic decision.
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Lyttenburg
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:24 pm

Germanic Templars wrote:
He's killing his country by further isolating it. Restricting himself to only his eastern allies. Speaking of allies, why the hell has he refused to help Assad out? He was so eager in preventing US involvement back in 2011, but when ISIS began crawling over the country, he doesn't even turn an eye towards it. Hell he even did some work with North Korea.

Putin is showing his true colors, unfortunately it is not in favor of communists or Russians but rather in his own.


1) Prove that a) Putin is isolating his country. b) Putin is killing his country.

2) Russia lacks "allies" in the American sense of the word, i.e. "vassals". Instead we have partners.

3) What kind of nonsense about Assad are you talking about?
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

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Yorkopolis
Minister
 
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Founded: Jul 28, 2011
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Postby Yorkopolis » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:24 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:
Germanic Templars wrote:Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

I only brought it up because he was literally talking about the destruction of the Russian state. What else am I supposed to call that?

Yorkopolis wrote:By claiming that I am a Russophobe, you (Constantinopolis) have effectively ran out of arguments and can now resort solely to accusations of Russophobia whenever your point is actually legitimately countered, just like all the other pro-Russia people do.

...says the guy who is offended at being accused of Russophobia after referring to Voronezh, Rostov, and Kuban as "the republic of Eastern Ukraine under temporary occupation by Russia".

Nowhere, my friend, did I call for the destruction of the Russian state. I call for the destruction of the Putin government and its replacement with a democratic government, and I'm totally okay with a Russian state. That is...one located solely in the Moscow Oblast and with all the other oblasts and republics being independent states and self-ruling confederations not in the slightest related to eachother in government or economy. If they do good, I might even decide to include the Moscow city itself.

Also, I am not offended in the least by being accused of Russophobia. If I were offended as such, I would react with rage and anger. The only thing I can react with now, isn't even remotely close to rage or anger. I'm actually quite enjoying myself, at how I made such a massively absurdist joke clearly sarcastically, and am now being mistaken for actually serious about wanting Kuban, Rostov and Voronezh to be part of Ukraine. I'd love to see Kuban, Rostov and Voronezh a part of Ukraine, honestly, but to think I am being serious in such an absurdist joke?

Windows, about a minute ago wrote:Error 404: Humour Not Found, Directory C:\Program Files\Constantinopolis does not contain file called Humour.exe. Would you like to download it from the internet or search such a file on this device?


Geilinor wrote:
Lyttenburg wrote:
It is not "Ministry". Its a channel.

I see you didn't get the joke.

They're not getting it here. Trust me on that one.
Last edited by Yorkopolis on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:25 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Lyttenburg wrote:
I'm not surprised in the slightest that you a) Hate CPU and CPRF so much and b) is so well versed in all things fascist, given where are you from.

Ooh, ooh. Now the Russia-supporters accuse Lithuania of fascism. Is "fascism" the only thing you people can come up with?

My friend, this is Eastern Europe we're talking about. Trust me, fascism really is everywhere - you may have noticed that the main question is which side has MORE fascist influence than the other, because all sides have at least one or two fascist groups supporting them. That's usually how it goes.

As much as I love my home region, there is no denying that ultra-nationalism hangs upon it like a plague.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:25 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Germanic Templars wrote:
He's killing his country by further isolating it. Restricting himself to only his eastern allies. Speaking of allies, why the hell has he refused to help Assad out? He was so eager in preventing US involvement back in 2011, but when ISIS began crawling over the country, he doesn't even turn an eye towards it. Hell he even did some work with North Korea.

Putin is showing his true colors, unfortunately it is not in favor of communists or Russians but rather in his own.


3) What kind of nonsense about Assad are you talking about?

If Putin cares so much about his "partners", why does he let ISIS overrun Syria?
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Lyttenburg
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Founded: Jun 09, 2014
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:25 pm

Estruia wrote:
You ARE aware that the actions of a Regional power do have adverse effects and consequences throughout the world as a whole, right?


Such as? Prove, please, that what is happening in the Ukraine is incredibly influencing for the inner politicks in, say, Paraguay?
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

Lyttenburgh. Founded: Thu Sep 1 2011. Deleted: Sun Jun 8 2014. Population: 5.201 billion.
Never Forgive. Never Forget

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:26 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:No, he's gone around invading other nations[2] and taking their territory while arming and prolonging a conflict that's costing lives. So I'll say what most every person here agrees with, fuck Putin.


2 in fact. Although, in case of Gerogia it was a counter-invasion and Russia gained no territory from that, but, due to your constant brainwashing by Western Media, I can understand why are you so easily confused and made beleive in the myth of Big Bad Vlad.

And how many countries did USA invade since 2000, which resulted in hom many deaths, hmm?

And I'll say what every person in Russia agrees with - fuck USA!


That was in no way directed at the events in Georgia, so again you go off on something completely unrelated to what was being discussed, good job.

America has invaded two nations since 2000, and shocker most of us oppose it! Also, not every Russian is scared of the West like you are. I've met a number of Russian's who dislike Putin and are pro-US, I think we even have some on NSG.
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Lyttenburg
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Founded: Jun 09, 2014
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:27 pm

Geilinor wrote:Why are you asking me about the IDF? Are you going to accuse me of war crimes against the Palestinians and using that experience against Russians?


No. Why are you so suddenly and agressively strawmanning?
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

Lyttenburgh. Founded: Thu Sep 1 2011. Deleted: Sun Jun 8 2014. Population: 5.201 billion.
Never Forgive. Never Forget

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Slavonian kingdom
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Founded: Aug 30, 2014
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Postby Slavonian kingdom » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:28 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:They are not a Russian nationalist organisation, and even if they were, it is extremely undemocratic to suppress the nationalist organisations of a minority ethnic group (such as the Russians in Ukraine). As I said before, in a real democracy, parties don't get banned even when they openly advocate separatism (whichthe CPU does not actually advocate).

You logical fallacy. Nobody has a problem with the ideology it is just that since the CPU wants to participate according to democratic rules they should stop supporting the rebel. That is why they will get banned.

Banning parties is not something unsuall if they dont follow the constitutional framework. Even elected parties got banned in some countries.

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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:28 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Geilinor wrote:Why are you asking me about the IDF? Are you going to accuse me of war crimes against the Palestinians and using that experience against Russians?


No. Why are you so suddenly and agressively strawmanning?

I'm just matching your aggression. Now tell me, what does the IDF have to do with this?
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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:29 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:They are not a Russian nationalist organisation, and even if they were, it is extremely undemocratic to suppress the nationalist organisations of a minority ethnic group (such as the Russians in Ukraine). As I said before, in a real democracy, parties don't get banned even when they openly advocate separatism (which the CPU does not actually advocate).


Nazi and neo-Nazi parties are banned in Germany. Does that make it "not a real democracy"?

If they actually enforced the ban in a serious fashion, then yes, that would make Germany at least somewhat authoritarian and undemocratic.

But, in practice, Nazi parties do exist in Germany, one of them even has a few seats in regional parliaments, and the only thing the ban does is prevent them from actually using the name "National Socialist" for themselves.
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________________Communist. Leninist. Orthodox Christian.________________
Communism is the logical conclusion of Christian morality. "Whoever loves his neighbor as himself owns no more than his neighbor does", in the words of St. Basil the Great. The anti-theism of past Leninists was a tragic mistake, and the Church should be an ally of the working class.
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Estruia
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Founded: Mar 29, 2010
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Postby Estruia » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:30 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Estruia wrote:
You ARE aware that the actions of a Regional power do have adverse effects and consequences throughout the world as a whole, right?


Such as? Prove, please, that what is happening in the Ukraine is incredibly influencing for the inner politicks in, say, Paraguay?


The fact that Putin is forcing a rift between Russia and the West, will cause irreversible changes to the Geopolitical landscape of the world. It has nothing to do with the inner politics. It has everything to do with the World politics, but I don't genuinely expect you to realize that.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:30 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Estruia wrote:
You ARE aware that the actions of a Regional power do have adverse effects and consequences throughout the world as a whole, right?


Such as? Prove, please, that what is happening in the Ukraine is incredibly influencing for the inner politicks in, say, Paraguay?

What's happening in Ukraine hasn't influenced every country, but it has influenced politics within NATO and sanctions have gone both ways.
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Lyttenburg
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:32 pm

Yorkopolis wrote:[
Nowhere, my friend, did I call for the destruction of the Russian state. I call for the destruction of the Putin government and its replacement with a democratic government, and I'm totally okay with a Russian state. That is...one located solely in the Moscow Oblast and with all the other oblasts and republics being independent states and self-ruling confederations not in the slightest related to eachother in government or economy. If they do good, I might even decide to include the Moscow city itself.


And that's why any sane Russian (i.e. not a "liberal") would consider you a Russophobe - for wanting to overthrov Russian government (that said people support) and replacing it with some "democratic government" (drawn from whom? You know nothing about the Russian poliical scene) AND severely de-centralizing the whole state. If you would tell this stuff to ordinary Russians, here, in Russia, you, probably, would be beaten. Mind you - I wouldn't be the one who threw the first punch - there will be enough people more angrier than me.[/quote]
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

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Arglorand
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Founded: Jan 08, 2013
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Postby Arglorand » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:32 pm

You know, Lyttenburg, it's very typically Putinist of you to resort to condemning your enemies as Nazis even when they're behaving much less Nazilike than yourself. I'm well versed in all things fascist, you say? Maybe that's because my country was once occupied by them, genocided by them, and I know their stench? Maybe it's because we were liberated from those fascists by a red brand of fascism that your country now proclaims its honourable contribution to mankind and glorious history, whose crimes your government still refuses to admit? Lithuania is very typically attacked by Russians who have barely ever ventured out their borders, accusing us of fascism because of god knows what. Is fascism why we defied the Germans to never form an SS batallion, unlike your people, who have collaborated in extents absurd to destroy their own country? Is fascism why we went out into the forests to fight them, while you kept decrying mythological Lithuanian collaborationists and deporting random members of this nation to Siberia for no reason? Is fascism why we decry your imperialism and your aggression, while you people continue invading sovereign nations that you have NO RIGHT to touch? Lyttenburg, you're the fascist. I'm sorry. I can't wake you up to the fact until you wake up one day and realise what your lying government, your lying Putin, has did to you. But I'm going to say it anyway: you live in a fascist state expanding its imperial arm across Europe. And that fascist state, unless its people wake up to the lies they've been taught, is on a roadmap to self-destruction.

Good luck and have fun on that road. Ourselves in Lithuania, we're going to behave in OH SO TYPICAL fascist ways, such as permit LGBT civil unions, build a working welfare state, and relax our immigration laws.
Last edited by Arglorand on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lyttenburg
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Founded: Jun 09, 2014
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:32 pm

Geilinor wrote:If Putin cares so much about his "partners", why does he let ISIS overrun Syria?


Did ISIS overrun Syria?
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

Lyttenburgh. Founded: Thu Sep 1 2011. Deleted: Sun Jun 8 2014. Population: 5.201 billion.
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Lyttenburg
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Founded: Jun 09, 2014
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:33 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
That was in no way directed at the events in Georgia, so again you go off on something completely unrelated to what was being discussed, good job.

America has invaded two nations since 2000, and shocker most of us oppose it! Also, not every Russian is scared of the West like you are. I've met a number of Russian's who dislike Putin and are pro-US, I think we even have some on NSG.


I'm not scared of the West. I pity it.
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

Lyttenburgh. Founded: Thu Sep 1 2011. Deleted: Sun Jun 8 2014. Population: 5.201 billion.
Never Forgive. Never Forget

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Geilinor
Post Czar
 
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Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:34 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Yorkopolis wrote:Nowhere, my friend, did I call for the destruction of the Russian state. I call for the destruction of the Putin government and its replacement with a democratic government, and I'm totally okay with a Russian state. That is...one located solely in the Moscow Oblast and with all the other oblasts and republics being independent states and self-ruling confederations not in the slightest related to eachother in government or economy. If they do good, I might even decide to include the Moscow city itself.


And that's why any sane Russian (i.e. not a "liberal") would consider you a Russophobe - for wanting to overthrov Russian government (that said people support) and replacing it with some "democratic government" (drawn from whom? You know nothing about the Russian poliical scene) AND severely de-centralizing the whole state. If you would tell this stuff to ordinary Russians, here, in Russia, you, probably, would be beaten. Mind you - I wouldn't be the one who threw the first punch - there will be enough people more angrier than me.

We aren't going to Russia and saying what we're posting here. You probably wouldn't dare go around accusing random people in Western Europe and North America of intolerance.
Last edited by Geilinor on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Slavonian kingdom
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 199
Founded: Aug 30, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Slavonian kingdom » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:34 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Slavonian kingdom wrote:You know what I meant. I would support the CPU if they were a true Ukranian party and not a Russian nationalist organisation.

For the Jews. Please, it is you side that is pointing out how most oligarchs in Russia and Ukraine are of Jewish descendant. I heard even stories from pro-Russian where they accused Igor Kolomorsky, Poroshenko, Jatsenuk for being of jewish descendant as that is something bad.

In what way is it foreign? What, are Ukrainians not allowed to be pro-Soviet, because in that case, lots of Ukrainians need to be kicked out:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

That is unfortunately a result of long year pro-Russian Soviet totalitarian rule. Once the Eastern Ukrainians adapt the democratic political culture the adorance for the Russian Soviet rule will be gone. In that way the CPU is a remnant of foreign rule.

It is like having a British unionist party in the Republic of Ireland. Since the CPU is nit a friend of democracy it gives more reasons to bann it.

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45232
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:34 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Geilinor wrote:If Putin cares so much about his "partners", why does he let ISIS overrun Syria?


Did ISIS overrun Syria?


They control something like a third of Syria.
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Kouralia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15068
Founded: Oct 30, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kouralia » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:34 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
That was in no way directed at the events in Georgia, so again you go off on something completely unrelated to what was being discussed, good job.

America has invaded two nations since 2000, and shocker most of us oppose it! Also, not every Russian is scared of the West like you are. I've met a number of Russian's who dislike Putin and are pro-US, I think we even have some on NSG.


I'm not scared of the West. I pity it.

*pats gently*

There there.
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Lyttenburg
Diplomat
 
Posts: 891
Founded: Jun 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:35 pm

Geilinor wrote:I'm just matching your aggression. Now tell me, what does the IDF have to do with this?


There is an old anecdote, that even in IDF Israeli soldiers are answering with questions. But what is more interesting, why did you attempted to answer my question (directed not at you) by ascking, if the Ukrainians killed my kitten?
“In an hour of Darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity, look to the madman to show the way.”
Fight for Peace. Live for War. Die for Nothing
I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
Кто не скачет - того Крым!
The ultimate fate of all Russophobes.

Lyttenburgh. Founded: Thu Sep 1 2011. Deleted: Sun Jun 8 2014. Population: 5.201 billion.
Never Forgive. Never Forget

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45232
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:35 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
That was in no way directed at the events in Georgia, so again you go off on something completely unrelated to what was being discussed, good job.

America has invaded two nations since 2000, and shocker most of us oppose it! Also, not every Russian is scared of the West like you are. I've met a number of Russian's who dislike Putin and are pro-US, I think we even have some on NSG.


I'm not scared of the West. I pity it.


Yes, because our trillions of dollars of wealth, civil rights and all that evil fascist stuff needs pitying. Give it a break, you just have a phobia of anything western.
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