Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Lalaki]

Which is wrong. But really, Russia isn't exactly politically free. I side with the EU over Russia, simply because they have a better track record with human rights/political freedom. Not a perfect record, but a better record.

You should never choose sides in international politics purely based on their respective internal politics.

(although internal politics can be one of several factors to consider)

Well, I support what the people of Ukraine want. No country should force their will on another. If the people in Crimea wanted to be with Russia, that is their right. But why are other parts of Ukraine in danger?

[Lalaki]

Why not?

Because just because a government does X at home that doesn't necessarily mean that when they win an international conflict, this will promote X in the world.

For example: The United States has democracy at home, and in the 1980s they were involved in a proxy war in Afghanistan against the Soviets. The pro-American side eventually won that war. Did this help to promote democracy in the world? Hell no, it helped to promote Islamism in the world. So if you had lived in the 1980s and had supported the pro-American side in Afghanistan because you like democracy (i.e. American internal politics), that would have been a pretty serious mistake on your part.

That is actually very true. While I am a much bigger fan of the US political system, America had no place in that war. I actually used that when writing a paper in favor of a non-interventionist foreign policy.

[Costa Fierro]

How can anyone observe current events in Wall Street, Ferguson and Detroit and claim that the US is a democracy at home? The US is an oligarchy of corporate interests where economic policy is dictated by a small cadre of bankers and industrialists, people are being denied access to water and the police can shoot unarmed people without consequences.

Protests are consequences and how is shooting people related to democracy at home? The US elects (most of) it's politicians in fair democratic elections. That is essentially what a democracy is. That is essentially what the concept of democracy is. Being able to make the choice between two candidates in a fair and transparent manner.

The US lack of regard for democracy, human rights and civilian deaths in places like Ukraine and Syria is completely in line with those exact same policies at home.

The US hasn't done anything in Syria or Ukraine. It tried to do something in Syria but your best friend Russia stepped in and prevented the Americans from doing something to protect Assad and ensuring that Assad's murderous regime lasts a few months longer. The only country that blatantly disregards democracy, human rights and civilian deaths in Syria and Ukraine is Russia. The former for backing a regime with one of the worst human rights records in the region (and given that the region also includes gems like Saudi Arabia, that's saying something) and being actively involved in the subversion of Ukrainian sovereignty. When you have regular soldiers from active military units fighting on the ground there, that's not sitting back and staying out.

[Jinwoy]

Of your entire post, I noticed one thing:
1) He won't source RT unless they source someone reliable, like Gallup. Which is exactly what they did.
Nice strawman.

Gallup is a POLL company! A POLL COMPANY! Not news, not journalism, POLLS! Meaning OPINIONS! They could be sourcing a UN poll and it would still mean NOTHING in the grand scheme of things! And for the record, I'm fairly certain he HAS sourced RT a few times where a poll wasn't done, though I don't remember exactly because I barely get past the title of each RT editorial before I laugh off back to BBC. Come get me when RT starts sourcing BBC, Reuters, and Vice on a regular basis.

Strawman? Please, do yourself a favor and google that!

In this case, the Gallup poll proved a point.
And yes, it was a strawman. You attacked his argument on no other basis than "IT WAS DER RT" even though the link was about the Crimean referendum and drawed its sources from, uh oh, gallup. Despite this, its still inaccurate and you must point this out to everyone, misrepresenting what the argument's point was.
Oh, pro-western logic never fails.

[Costa Fierro]

CNN (which IMO is the ultimate epitome of what IS Western Media) even has a gallery with photos of destructions.

Does this mean that I can regard all Russian media with the same disapproval as I have of Russia Today?

[Malgrave]

CNN (which IMO is the ultimate epitome of what IS Western Media) even has a gallery with photos of destructions.

Does this mean that I can regard all Russian media with the same disapproval as I have of Russia Today?

*ramble about the lies of the western media and the holy truth of everything coming from Russian media*

[Lalaki]

How can anyone observe current events in Wall Street, Ferguson and Detroit and claim that the US is a democracy at home? The US is an oligarchy of corporate interests where economic policy is dictated by a small cadre of bankers and industrialists, people are being denied access to water and the police can shoot unarmed people without consequences. The US lack of regard for democracy, human rights and civilian deaths in places like Ukraine and Syria is completely in line with those exact same policies at home.

In the United States, all adult citizens are free to vote in public elections. They are also free to voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country, etc. We are not completely free, and you bring up real problems. But to dismiss the US entirely is not right.

And Russia? Russia has a worse track record with democracy. And the United States was actually going to intervene in Syria before an international accord was reached. Plus, the EU is opposed to Russian policies towards Ukraine. The US is aligned with the EU. And I'd say they have better track records with human rights.

[Malgrave]

Mistreated? How? That they are shown houses they've bombed? That they were made to stand near civillians that they've bombed and apologise for their actions? This is "mistreatmnet"?

Or, what, you have trouble that they were made "jump"? Previously they were jumping all the time just to prove that they are not "Moscals". Besides, the context of them jumping - it's quite obvious, that they are doing their morning exercises under the guard of DPRs militiamen. Morning exercises, you know, are routine way for any military (and, probably, even for the National Guard of the Ukraine) to keep troopers in shape. And what you've expected? That they would be fed hamburgers and diet Coke?

I expect them to be treated according to international law not paraded around like some sort of trophy. DPR forcing POW's against their will to visit these sites, march on parade and stand around while being harassed is disgusting and not something that should be celebrated or appplauded.

Now, specially for user Malgrave, and all denialists, who still beleive in "2000 dead since April" number plus for Westerner followers of perverse logic, that states - "rebels are to blame for all those civillian deaths - not the Ukrainians who actually kill them" - your own propganda Free and Objective media is reporting it!

Photos of a besieged city draining of life

(CNN) -- Bodies torn apart by the weapons of war. The bloody corpse of a man hit by shelling as he walked under trees, a shopkeeper's mutilated body in front of her store, a broom lying nearby.

Some three months after pro-Russian rebels declared an independent "Donetsk People's Republic," Ukrainian government forces are encircling the city of Donetsk.

Photojournalist Jonathan Alpeyrie was in the city in May and returned two weeks ago to find it battle-scarred and slowly draining of life as its people flee.

The images he has captured show the anguish of the immediate aftermath of shelling -- the relatives of victims, people left homeless, the dead. Others depict those left behind sheltering in Soviet or WWII-era cellars and boarded-up buildings as their homes are engulfed by the conflict.

The photographs, many too graphic to show here, leave no doubt about the true horror of the destructive conflict.

"If you go north of the city towards the airport you have entire areas that are no-man's land -- they are not controlled by anybody and they are being shelled daily ... with mortars and tanks," Alpeyrie tells CNN.

"You see some families that have remained there -- mostly elders and a lot of people that don't really have any money, they have to stay. You also get people who stay because they don't want to leave their homes. It's been their family home for a long time and they have their belongings inside, so they want to stay close to that. "You do have a lot of elders who are pretty tough and they're very pro-Russian, so for them that's also their struggle but a lot of them are hoping that this will end quickly."

The center of Donetsk, in peacetime much like any other modern city, is less damaged, though suffering from water shortages and largely shut down, he says, abandoned by an estimated half of Donetsk's population of around one million. "People do get killed. If you're walking down the street it's like a lottery, you just don't know," Alpeyrie says.

The day before Alpeyrie spoke to CNN, the group he was with -- fellow photographers and a local driver/translator -- had almost been killed in the town of Marynivka. Four people died nearby.

"It's always hard when we see people getting killed where you are, that's tough, because they're just regular people and they're not really involved in the war," he says.

The team's driver was one of the residents trying to earn a living while it was still possible. Many of those still facing the dangers of Donetsk have sent their children away, Alpeyrie says. The trains have stopped running from Donetsk, so the refugees travel by bus, many making the perilous journey through fighting in Luhansk region to reach Russia.

Others go south to Mariupol, traveling through the conflict's front line to safety, Alpeyrie says.

There, where the fighting is at its most intense, photography is not welcomed by the rebels.

"You can hang out with them if you want, but since just they get hit all the time and as you can't take pictures or photos there's no reason to hang out with them," Alpeyrie says.

However, recently Alpeyrie and some colleagues got lucky -- obtaining rare images of a rebel funeral.

CNN (which IMO is the ultimate epitome of what IS Western Media) even has a gallery with photos of destructions.

I've never said that the Ukrainian government is not responsible for deaths and other human rights violations in the East of the country so don't assume thing about me. I do love how you spout on about the "propaganda" of the Western media like that is meant to mean something, all while spouting general Pro-Russian talking points though.

The United Nations have concluded that human rights violations are being enacted by both sides but the Pro-Russian rebels are using the civilians in these population centres as human shields.

rebels have prevented people from leaving cities that caught up in the fighting, he said. "They are in a sense using whole towns and cities as human shields."

Pro-Russian groups in Eastern Ukraine have been accused of using human shields

[Lyttenburg]

In the United States, all adult citizens are free to vote in public elections. They are also free to voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country, etc. We are not completely free, and you bring up real problems. But to dismiss the US entirely is not right.

And Russia? Russia has a worse track record with democracy. And the United States was actually going to intervene in Syria before an international accord was reached. Plus, the EU is opposed to Russian policies towards Ukraine. The US is aligned with the EU. And I'd say they have better track records with human rights.

Are you seriously saying then, that in Russia adult citizens can't vote in public elections, they can't voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country?

[Respawn]

*ramble about the lies of the western media and the holy truth of everything coming from Russian media*

This is what I find hilarious. I see people getting so riled up against "western media" (as if there is only one kind of "western media", hue) because it's supposedly propaganda, yet they listen to Russian media as if it were the literal word of God. Is this cognitive dissonance or are they just extremely gullible?

To be fair, this works both ways.

e: why the fuck am i still posting in this cancerous thread

[Lyttenburg]

I expect them to be treated according to international law not paraded around like some sort of trophy. DPR forcing POW's against their will to visit these sites, march on parade and stand around while being harassed is disgusting and not something that should be celebrated or appplauded.

But killing civillians and destorying their houses is not disgusting? Gee, always glad to know more about Liberal Free West and its citizens outlooks!

Pro-Russian groups in Eastern Ukraine have been accused of using human shields

And pro-Kiev forces use them as well - look at the part of my mega-post about Ukrainian armour and BMPs placed in the middle of the village, to prevent people militiamen from using the artillery.

Look - you didn't beleive in my claims, now you got it. And still ypu try to find something to place all the blame of "pro-Russian separatists"

[Lyttenburg]

*ramble about the lies of the western media and the holy truth of everything coming from Russian media*

Where did I say that Russian media produces nothing but truth?

[Costa Fierro]

Are you seriously saying then, that in Russia adult citizens can't vote in public elections, they can't voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country?

I don't doubt that Russia now has the freedom of travel and worship that didn't exist under the Soviets but modern Russia hasn't quite grasp the concept of democratic elections. Yes, Russians can vote and yes, there are multiple political parties. But Russian politics is very much dominated by United Russia and by Putin. As for voicing their opinions, I would imagine it would be difficult for people to voice open criticisms of the Russian government, it's policies and of Putin. People here (I don't live in the US) can freely (and do) criticize the government for a number of reasons.

[Lalaki]

In the United States, all adult citizens are free to vote in public elections. They are also free to voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country, etc. We are not completely free, and you bring up real problems. But to dismiss the US entirely is not right.

And Russia? Russia has a worse track record with democracy. And the United States was actually going to intervene in Syria before an international accord was reached. Plus, the EU is opposed to Russian policies towards Ukraine. The US is aligned with the EU. And I'd say they have better track records with human rights.

Are you seriously saying then, that in Russia adult citizens can't vote in public elections, they can't voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country?

That's not what I'm saying. But I would say that the EU and US have better human rights track records.

[Lalaki]

Are you seriously saying then, that in Russia adult citizens can't vote in public elections, they can't voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country?

I don't doubt that Russia now has the freedom of travel and worship that didn't exist under the Soviets but modern Russia hasn't quite grasp the concept of democratic elections. Yes, Russians can vote and yes, there are multiple political parties. But Russian politics is very much dominated by United Russia and by Putin. As for voicing their opinions, I would imagine it would be difficult for people to voice open criticisms of the Russian government, it's policies and of Putin. People here (I don't live in the US) can freely (and do) criticize the government for a number of reasons.

Exactly. For all the faults of the United States, at least we can speak our minds freely without any fear whatsoever.

[Lyttenburg]

That's not what I'm saying. But I would say that the EU and US have better human rights track records.

So, what is you saying with your "They have better human rights track" approach, that so called "Western democracies" can smart-bomb into democracies other countries with much murkier track record, as long as the allow gay-prides and very critical TV-shows?

[Lalaki]

That's not what I'm saying. But I would say that the EU and US have better human rights track records.

So, what is you saying with your "They have better human rights track" approach, that so called "Western democracies" can smart-bomb into democracies other countries with much murkier track record, as long as the allow gay-prides and very critical TV-shows?

No. I am a military non-interventionist who disagrees with US foreign policies. But I stand by my statement that the US and the EU have better human rights records than Russia. Plus, I also respectfully disagree with Russia's foreign policy.

[Respawn]

*ramble about the lies of the western media and the holy truth of everything coming from Russian media*

Where did I say that Russian media produces nothing but truth?

Not you. It's usually western hipsters butthurt about perceived American imperialism who act like that.
I mean, I don't mind RT for stories which don't concern Russia's interests, but the minute Russia is involved, it's full shill mode for them!

[Lalaki]

In the United States, all adult citizens are free to vote in public elections. They are also free to voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country, etc. We are not completely free, and you bring up real problems. But to dismiss the US entirely is not right.

And Russia? Russia has a worse track record with democracy. And the United States was actually going to intervene in Syria before an international accord was reached. Plus, the EU is opposed to Russian policies towards Ukraine. The US is aligned with the EU. And I'd say they have better track records with human rights.

Are you seriously saying then, that in Russia adult citizens can't vote in public elections, they can't voice their opinion, worship or not to worship, move in and out of the country?

I was more responding to a post that said the US has a disregard for democracy. I wasn't making any statements about Russia in the first section of my post. I'm sorry for the misconception, that was my fault. I think I will humbly agree to disagree at this point. Thank you for the discussion.

[Cartalucci]

How can anyone observe current events in Wall Street, Ferguson and Detroit and claim that the US is a democracy at home? The US is an oligarchy of corporate interests where economic policy is dictated by a small cadre of bankers and industrialists, people are being denied access to water and the police can shoot unarmed people without consequences.

Protests are consequences and how is shooting people related to democracy at home? The US elects (most of) it's politicians in fair democratic elections. That is essentially what a democracy is. That is essentially what the concept of democracy is. Being able to make the choice between two candidates in a fair and transparent manner.

Of course, I forgot that American voters are free to choose whether it is a Republican or a Democrat that follows the orders of the corporate oligarchy. At least, that's the truth that academic research supports, where "economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy" and "mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence." Not that you would ever discover this following corporate media.

The US lack of regard for democracy, human rights and civilian deaths in places like Ukraine and Syria is completely in line with those exact same policies at home.

The US hasn't done anything in Syria or Ukraine. It tried to do something in Syria but your best friend Russia stepped in and prevented the Americans from doing something to protect Assad and ensuring that Assad's murderous regime lasts a few months longer. The only country that blatantly disregards democracy, human rights and civilian deaths in Syria and Ukraine is Russia. The former for backing a regime with one of the worst human rights records in the region (and given that the region also includes gems like Saudi Arabia, that's saying something) and being actively involved in the subversion of Ukrainian sovereignty. When you have regular soldiers from active military units fighting on the ground there, that's not sitting back and staying out.

Hasn't done anything? The US state department is responsible for the fascist coup that brought the current Ukrainian government to power. They have paid the coup governments billions of dollars to arm neo-Nazi militias to attack ethnic Russians and deployed who knows how many CIA organised mercenaries.

In Syria it is the US and it's proxies like Saudi arabia that are arming terrorists like al-Nusra and IS and buying oil that they steal from the Syrian people to fund attacks on pro-Iranian governments in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon and justify US intervention. This has already toppled the Iraqi PM who had Iran's backing.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Snip

You have no idea what fascism is do you?

[Organized States]

Snip

You have no idea what fascism is do you?

I so agree. Accusing the West of "Fascism" is quite laughable actually.

[Murkwood]

Have you guys seen this site? It's a live map of the conflict in Ukraine. Very interesting.

[United Marxist Nations]

Have you guys seen this site? It's a live map of the conflict in Ukraine. Very interesting.

I just use Wiki's map.

[Murkwood]

Have you guys seen this site? It's a live map of the conflict in Ukraine. Very interesting.

I just use Wiki's map.

Eh, I like this one better. It's got a nice timeline on the side, and is updated live.