Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Greed and Death]

The Russians did have a Spot in California, Fort Ross.
Using Putin's understanding of International law San Francisco is Russian Territory.

Some gay people or going to be might upset tomorrow.

They did, but the first colonizers were the Spanish.

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

[Natalia Poklonskaya]

They did, but the first colonizers were the Spanish.

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

[European Socialist Republic]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

It's hard to understand a piece of land.

[Aterna]

They did, but the first colonizers were the Spanish.

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

[Aterna]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

Not surprising? Oh, wait, let me guess "We are Western, and therefore do not understand countries not Western!" Did I win a vowel?



What we are saying is how silly this whole "land claim" argument is. In fact, it really does not matter who "owned" it first, does it? No, it's all about which world power can sit on top of the pile for the longest time. It's like Manifest Destiny for the Americans or "Doing Good" for the British-all excuses to take land that is supposedly theirs, for various reasons.

Of course, it's all for the good of Mother Russia, right? Of course right.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

We understand international borders.
That seems to be something Russia didn't get the memo on...If we ignore all the treaties they signed with Ukraine recognizing Crimea as part of Ukraine. So they did get the memo on it, they just ignored it because "Nobody else understands!! NONE OF YOU UNDERSTAND! None of you understand!" And then proceed to shed crocodile tears whilst moving their military into a foreign country.

But yes, WE'RE clearly the ones lacking in understanding here. Because Russia is special.

Edit: Also, good news from the Eastern front! More detente and deescalation!
Wait. No. I mean military exercises by Russian forces in Transdniestria. Because detente and deescelation isn't for stronk Russian leaders like Putin.

[Aeken]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

Because you obviously know so much more.

[Baltenstein]

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

We understand international borders.
That seems to be something Russia didn't get the memo on...If we ignore all the treaties they signed with Ukraine recognizing Crimea as part of Ukraine. So they did get the memo on it, they just ignored it because "Nobody else understands!! NONE OF YOU UNDERSTAND! None of you understand!" And then proceed to shed crocodile tears whilst moving their military into a foreign country.

Being a supporter of the Russian government must be so hard these days...

[Baltenstein]

The Crimean Tatars have announced that they are considering to hold their own referendum on wether they want to be part of the Russian Federation or not.

(Reuters) - Crimea's indigenous Tatars are considering their own referendum on whether to be part of Ukraine or Russia, the leader of the Muslim minority said on Tuesday, in a challenge to Moscow that could further destabilize the region.

Refat Chubarov, the head of the Crimean Tatars' main assembly, told Reuters that the body's 250 members would meet on Saturday to debate the future of the 300,000-strong community in the wake of Russia's annexation of Crimea.

"In the space of three weeks we've found ourselves in a completely different de facto situation," Chubarov said in an interview. "The Crimean Tatars should determine their fate themselves."

"Nobody asked us, the Crimean Tatars ... in what conditions we want to live," he said. "Should the question feature prominently during the meeting, we will seek options of holding our own referendum."

Crimean Tatars are deeply suspicious of Russian rule following the mass deportation of their ancestors to Central Asia by Soviet authorities in 1944.

Sunni Muslims of Turkic origin, the Tatars began returning to Crimea some two decades ago and now make up less than 15 percent of the peninsula's roughly 2 million people, pledging loyalty to Ukraine.

The new Moscow-backed authorities of Crimea, which has a narrow ethnic Russian majority, are unlikely to look favourably on any challenge from within to the peninsula's vote this month to join Russia.

Chubarov dismissed the hastily organised March 16 referendum, largely boycotted by Tatars, saying it was held at gunpoint under the gaze of Russian soldiers.

In annexing Crimea, Moscow cited the right of its people to self-determination. Chubarov, a historian by education, said the same should apply to the Tatars.

Seated next to the light blue flag of the Crimean Tatars, a yellow emblem depicting scales as the symbol of justice, Chubarov, 57, repeatedly referred to Ukraine as "our country".

Moscow has portrayed its seizure of Crimea as rectifying an historic injustice when Crimea, gifted to Ukraine in 1954 by Soviet leader and ethnic Ukrainian Nikita Khrushchev under the Soviet Union, was lost to Moscow when Ukraine became independent in 1991.

The Tatars, however, view things differently.

"We are fewer than ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians, but this is our land, we do not have any other place outside of Crimea," Chubarov said.

He was born in Uzbekistan, where his parents were deported to as children. Chubarov's family returned to Crimea in 1968 as part of a small group of Tatars allowed back by Soviet authorities under international pressure.

Crimean Tatars are spread out across the Black Sea peninsula with larger concentration in the historic town of Bakhchisaray and some districts in Simferopol, the provincial capital.

Chubarov said he feared the Tatars may have to seek Russian passports to avoid administrative difficulties, even though Ukrainian law does not allow dual citizenship.

"The people may be forced to become citizens of the country that forced this situation on them, as well as being citizens of the country that was unable to defend them," he said.

Good for them. Hopefully they push it through.

[Greed and Death]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

Images from Russian San Francisco's pride parade.

[Salvageville]

Nobody would understand a little bit about, "we see that note. Stroke known, according to the agreement, which the Ukrainian Crimea, Ukraine rejected ... " Don't buy it.

But clearly, we have a misunderstanding here.

[Lyttenburgh]

Ukrainian Interior Ministry reports - Sashko Beliy shot himself during the detention. Yeaaaaah. 2 times in the heart. Pinned to the ground. With handcuffed hands.

[Alien Space Bats]

You need to realise that the reason your countries are limiting their response to whining and slap on the wrist sanctions is that both Europe and the US cannot stop the Russian armed forces steam rolling across Europe or America any time we choose to do so. This is has been greatly helped by your foolish military actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and other parts of Africa where your strength was sapped by bogged down military operations that also wiped out your economies which are now so dependent on mother Russia that serious sanctions on Russia would destroy the economies of all Europe.

As the Americans say, you have check mated.

Cool story, bro.

[European Socialist Republic]

:palm:

Ukrainian Interior Ministry repirts - Sashko Beliy shot himself during the detention. Yeaaaaah. 2 times in the heart. Pinned to the ground. With handcuffed hands.

Sounds plausible.

[Aterna]

:palm:

Ukrainian Interior Ministry repirts - Sashko Beliy shot himself during the detention. Yeaaaaah. 2 times in the heart. Pinned to the ground. With handcuffed hands.

Just like all those Russian soldiers are "self-defense forces" and not actual soldiers, hu?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... NF20140305

[Alien Space Bats]

I think the occupation of Kiev by Russian forces and the forcible establishment of a Russian puppet government there is inevitable.

Ok, ok - "challenge accepted!" (c). And what if your "prophecy" won't come to life? Would you in that case put in your signature "I'm a paranoid Cold War relict proved wrong"?

If it DOES happen, will you put "I'm a shameless Putin sycophant and mindless Russian propaganda tool?" in yours?

[Pilotto]

You need to realise that the reason your countries are limiting their response to whining and slap on the wrist sanctions is that both Europe and the US cannot stop the Russian armed forces steam rolling across Europe or America any time we choose to do so. This is has been greatly helped by your foolish military actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and other parts of Africa where your strength was sapped by bogged down military operations that also wiped out your economies which are now so dependent on mother Russia that serious sanctions on Russia would destroy the economies of all Europe.

As the Americans say, you have check mated.

You seem to be ludicrously overconfident of the capabilities of the Russian military.

[Tahar Joblis]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

I think I understand the people of Crimea better than you do. Which is why I don't buy the post-Anschluss referendum as legitimate, nor Putin's claims about Crimean public opinion.

I also think I understand the history of Crimea better than you do. I'm aware that a majority of ethnic Russians living in Crimea voted to separate from the USSR in the first place, just like virtually every other geographic and ethnic segment of the Ukranian SSR. I'm aware that the Stalinist period in which Crimea was part of the Russian SSR is the anomalous one, and that in the rest of Russian history, Crimea was part of larger Ukrainian administrative units.

I'm aware that the Crimean parliament has been acting at gunpoint. I'm aware that Russian troops seem to have been involved with military action in Crimea from the moment it started happening, using soldiers in unmarked uniforms. I'm aware that the prime minister installed at gunpoint while the Russians took over Crimea was from a party that got 4% of the vote last election.

[Priory Academy USSR]

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

I think I understand the people of Crimea better than you do. Which is why I don't buy the post-Anschluss referendum as legitimate, nor Putin's claims about Crimean public opinion.

That was from before Yanukovych's deposition, though. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever find out fairly what effect it actually had on support for Russia.

[Beta Test]

Anything interesting happening?

[Scholmeria]

No. Spanish.

The Russians did have a Spot in California, Fort Ross.
Using Putin's understanding of International law San Francisco is Russian Territory.

Some gay people or going to be might upset tomorrow.

"Although the settlement was sold for $30,000 to Sutter, Russian historians assert the sum was never paid; therefore, legal title of the settlement was never transferred to Sutter and still belongs to the Russian people"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ross, ... enterprise

[Lemanrussland]

Anything interesting happening?

Stratfor: "Acting Ukrainian Minister for Foreign Affairs Andrei Deschytsya met with Russian Minister for Foreign Affairs Sergei Lavrov, a report on the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry website said March 25."

Will have to be on the lookout for news on the contents of that meeting.

[Salvageville]

I understand that you have a better understanding of the people in the Crimea. I have a referendum and public protests in Asia and North America, Putin is not a crime.

I have a better understanding of the history of the Crimea I would like to know, first of all, the Soviet Union, as well as other segments of the national vote the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Crimea's ethnic Russians life leave. Territorial units, the Crimea, the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic, part of it is that I know the Stalin period, not the exception, in Russia, in the rest of the Crimea, Ukraine was part of a large office.

I know that targeted the Crimea, the Crimean parliament of the Russian troops participating in military actions in the light of the troops started to happen, I think. When you play the Russians in the Crimea, the install was caught with guns 4% - in the last election.

[Alien Space Bats]

You are hopeless Cold War relict, do you? Ukraine HAS NO MONEY! It's military is a joke! But instead of trying to rebuild it's economy to pay off debts (just for the 2014-15 ut needs $ 35 billions) you want to further bankrupt that poor country by hysterically crying "Wolf" shouting "Russians are coming!" on the top of your lungs? You really want Ukrainians to die for your and other Westerners delusion? And what if they don't want to become "partisans", but just live their own life, go to work and take care of their families? What makes you sure that Ukrainian people nowadays will put up any serious resistance in the improbable case of "Russian occupation" and not just behave like Danes in WW2?

If the Ukrainians don't want their independence, but simply want to be another Russian province, then they'll just roll over and accept foreign domination, the way you want them too.

I interpreted the question to mean: "What can the Ukraine do to preserve its sovereignty at this point?" To that, I provided the only possible answer: That in the face of overwhelming Russian military superiority, the only way that the Ukraine can home to preserve its independence is through asymmetrical resistance. Threatening to answer a Russian invasion with protracted guerrilla war has the dual advantage of being the only strategy that has a snowball's chance in Hell of working; it is also the only strategy that has a snowball's chance in Hell of DETERRING any Russian invasion, since the prospect of being caught in the PR quagmire of a guerilla war in the Ukraine should give even the most rabidly nationalistic Russian fool pause to reconsider his country's actions.

Then, too, threatening guerrilla war is a fairly inexpensive way of securing one's country; if the deterrent threat of guerrilla resistance succeeds, it won't have cost the Ukraine all that much money, and will thus leave the country with more resources (and time) to get their national act together.

Of course, I'm sure that YOU think that the Ukraineians should just drop their drawers and invite the Russians in; indeed, you'd probably like to see the whole of the former Soviet Empire to invite the Russian back in. The thing is, that's not what people in Eastern Europe want to do, so I;m answering that desire with the best advice I can. Surrender is not very good advice; in fact it's never very good advice.

Let me close with this comment from the Wikipedia article on Denmark's experience in the Second World War:

The policy of the government, called samarbejdspolitikken (cooperation policy) is one of the most controversial issues in Danish history.^[42] Some historians argue that the relatively accommodating policy which did not actively resist the occupation was the only realistic way of safeguarding Danish democracy and people.^[43] However, others argue that accommodation was taken too far, was uniquely compliant when compared to other democratic governments in Europe, and can not be seen as part of a coherent long-term strategy to protect democracy in Denmark or Europe. ^[42] In 2003 Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen characterised the cooperation as "morally unjustifiable," the first time a Danish leader had condemned the war-era leadership.^[44]

— Wikipedia Article on "Denmark in World War II"

I'm not equating Russia with Nazi Germany; after all, YOU were the one who chose to offer the example of Denmark's response to Nazi occupation as a model for what YOU see as Ukraine's ideal behavior going forward. In a court of law, your objections would be met by the judge's observation that it was YOU, counsellor, who chose to open the door to THIS particular line of inquiry.

So, given that this is YOUR door — the one YOU'VE opened — consider what you're asking these people to do: To compromise their morals and beliefs on behalf of their own comfort and survival, and at cost to their neighbors to boot.

Given the ethics of the Russian position here, I can't say I'm surprised at the level of moral bankruptcy inherent in your advice.

[Belzia]

I do not think the Russians were the first in the Crimea either.

So San Francisco welcome to Russia. Please remember Putin's rules about not advocating gayness.

You guys really don't understand Crimea do you? Not surprising.

You mean that disputed territory? yeah, I don't understand it either.