Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Constantinopolis]

No one is "correct". There are no good guys and bad guys in international politics. Only competing interests.

No, there are good guys and bad guys. The classification is just situation dependent.
Invading a sovereign country because of targeted genocides isn't a bad guy move.
Invading a sovereign country because 'my country needs more clay!' and you need a bump in domestic political opinion polls is a bad guy move.

All supposed instances of the former are really just instances of a government doing the latter and coming up with a convenient excuse.

Or, like I said earlier, I do not believe in such a thing as benevolence (when it comes to international relations).

[Germanic Templars]

You do know I can't read Russian or anything Cyrillic.

So then you're going to have very little idea what's going on in this conflict, since most sources on the ground are in Russian or Ukrainian, seeing as those are the languages spoken where the conflict is occurring.

Meh, Vice News does a good enough job for me. Reuters does good work too.

Mostly Vice because it is better to watch the event then read it. Watch dispatch 70 from Vice News in YouTube.

[Occupied Deutschland]

No, there are good guys and bad guys. The classification is just situation dependent.
Invading a sovereign country because of targeted genocides isn't a bad guy move.
Invading a sovereign country because 'my country needs more clay!' and you need a bump in domestic political opinion polls is a bad guy move.

All supposed instances of the former are really just instances of a government doing the latter and coming up with a convenient excuse.

Or, like I said earlier, I do not believe in such a thing as benevolence (when it comes to international relations).

There you go folks, UN peacekeeping is all just imperialistic desire for more land couched in terms of stopping genocide actually conducted for the sole purpose of winning political advantage for the local Lizard-men parties in the participating countries.

[Geilinor]

No, there are good guys and bad guys. The classification is just situation dependent.
Invading a sovereign country because of targeted genocides isn't a bad guy move.
Invading a sovereign country because 'my country needs more clay!' and you need a bump in domestic political opinion polls is a bad guy move.

All supposed instances of the former are really just instances of a government doing the latter and coming up with a convenient excuse.

Or, like I said earlier, I do not believe in such a thing as benevolence (when it comes to international relations).

The former doesn't usually result in annexation.

[Thellonya]

You believe the crap that you spew? And so we get to be liberated by Russia, because we dare join the EU? Are you fucking serious? And so what if we choose to join the most powerful alliance/economy thing, that is OUR choice, and for what the fuck ever reason Russia seems to go, lolnope sorry ukraine, we is of taking land from you, AND you cant join the EU! so fuck off what that nonsense

You speak for Ukraine as if you're the leader of some national hivemind. You really think EU integration is the aspiration of the majority of Ukrainians? You really think the current Kiev government, which shells and injures and kills its own civilians and oppresses its own people, represents the will of the entire populace? If that were the case, then Yanukovych, the president that HALF the country voted for, wouldn't needed to have been illegally removed in an undemocratic coup. Ukrainian apologists and nationalists scream about "freedom" and "democracy", but they have risen to power through the exact opposite of these ideals. The hypocrisy is unfathomable.

As a Rusyn, I will not let Kiev and western Ukraine send my family and friends to be slaughtered for some rabid nationalistic fantasies.

Undemocratic? Last time i checked that fucker had Berkut gunning people down in the streets because they dare voice their opinion. So yeah, fuck you and Yankovich. That ass had it coming to him when he started the shooting.

[Germanic Templars]

You speak for Ukraine as if you're the leader of some national hivemind. You really think EU integration is the aspiration of the majority of Ukrainians? You really think the current Kiev government, which shells and injures and kills its own civilians and oppresses its own people, represents the will of the entire populace? If that were the case, then Yanukovych, the president that HALF the country voted for, wouldn't needed to have been illegally removed in an undemocratic coup. Ukrainian apologists and nationalists scream about "freedom" and "democracy", but they have risen to power through the exact opposite of these ideals. The hypocrisy is unfathomable.

As a Rusyn, I will not let Kiev and western Ukraine send my family and friends to be slaughtered for some rabid nationalistic fantasies.

Undemocratic? Last time i checked that fucker had Berkut gunning people down in the streets because they dare voice their opinion. So yeah, fuck you and Yankovich. That ass had it coming to him when he started the shooting.

Hey now, we don't need that language projected towards other people now. Good way to get the mods on yer booty.

[Mefpan]

All supposed instances of the former are really just instances of a government doing the latter and coming up with a convenient excuse.

Or, like I said earlier, I do not believe in such a thing as benevolence (when it comes to international relations).

The former doesn't usually result in annexation.

Well, I do have those friends who insist that Germany really is just another State of the United States of America, except that it's permitted to pretend to be independent.

[Constantinopolis]

All supposed instances of the former are really just instances of a government doing the latter and coming up with a convenient excuse.

Or, like I said earlier, I do not believe in such a thing as benevolence (when it comes to international relations).

There you go folks, UN peacekeeping is all just imperialistic desire for more land couched in terms of stopping genocide actually conducted for the sole purpose of winning political advantage for the local Lizard-men parties in the participating countries.

You're the one who believes in fairy tales about heroic governments sending their armies to help unfortunate souls out of the goodness of their big fluffy politician hearts, without any self-interest at all, and you mock me with jokes about lizard-men?

There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. A. Benevolent. Armed. Operation.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go back to kindergarten.

[Geilinor]

Undemocratic? Last time i checked that fucker had Berkut gunning people down in the streets because they dare voice their opinion. So yeah, fuck you and Yankovich. That ass had it coming to him when he started the shooting.

Good way to get the mods on yer booty.

"Fuck" is not against site rules.

[Geilinor]

There you go folks, UN peacekeeping is all just imperialistic desire for more land couched in terms of stopping genocide actually conducted for the sole purpose of winning political advantage for the local Lizard-men parties in the participating countries.

You're the one who believes in fairy tales about heroic governments sending their armies to help unfortunate souls out of the goodness of their big fluffy politician hearts, without any self-interest at all, and you mock me with jokes about lizard-men?

There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. A. Benevolent. Armed. Operation.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go back to kindergarten.

So are UN peacekeepers imperialist?

[Occupied Deutschland]

There you go folks, UN peacekeeping is all just imperialistic desire for more land couched in terms of stopping genocide actually conducted for the sole purpose of winning political advantage for the local Lizard-men parties in the participating countries.

You're the one who believes in fairy tales about heroic governments sending their armies to help unfortunate souls out of the goodness of their big fluffy politician hearts, without any self-interest at all, and you mock me with jokes about lizard-men?

There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. A. Benevolent. Armed. Operation.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go back to kindergarten.

All just neocolonialist imperialist land-grabs conducted by self-interested parties, right bro?
You're so edgy I think you might just be a circle.

[Constantinopolis]

All supposed instances of the former are really just instances of a government doing the latter and coming up with a convenient excuse.

Or, like I said earlier, I do not believe in such a thing as benevolence (when it comes to international relations).

The former doesn't usually result in annexation.

Overthrowing the existing government of a country and replacing it with one hand-picked by yourself can be just as good as annexation.

The former doesn't usually result in annexation.

Well, I do have those friends who insist that Germany really is just another State of the United States of America, except that it's permitted to pretend to be independent.

I hope you do realize that if it hadn't been for the Cold War, and the (perceived or real) need to set up an independent state in the Western occupation zones of Germany as a bulwark against the Soviets, post-WW2 Germany would have looked very different. Before 1945 there were serious talks about forcibly de-industrializing Germany, or splitting it up into several states on a permanent basis, etc.

[Neoconstantius]

You speak for Ukraine as if you're the leader of some national hivemind. You really think EU integration is the aspiration of the majority of Ukrainians? You really think the current Kiev government, which shells and injures and kills its own civilians and oppresses its own people, represents the will of the entire populace? If that were the case, then Yanukovych, the president that HALF the country voted for, wouldn't needed to have been illegally removed in an undemocratic coup. Ukrainian apologists and nationalists scream about "freedom" and "democracy", but they have risen to power through the exact opposite of these ideals. The hypocrisy is unfathomable.

As a Rusyn, I will not let Kiev and western Ukraine send my family and friends to be slaughtered for some rabid nationalistic fantasies.

Undemocratic? Last time i checked that fucker had Berkut gunning people down in the streets because they dare voice their opinion. So yeah, fuck you and Yankovich. That ass had it coming to him when he started the shooting.

I'll just ignore that bit of flaming.

Last I checked, Berkut was deployed to keep order during rampant rioting, looting, and violence, as any government would do. I never cared much for Yanukovych myself, but the fact remains that he was democratically elected in internationally monitored elections by the majority of Ukrainians, and his removal was unconstitutional and illegal. So for nationalists to hide behind "democracy" when they themselves showed utter disregard for the democratic process is simply laughable.

[Neoconstantius]

Good way to get the mods on yer booty.

"Fuck" is not against site rules.

No, but "fuck you" is.

[Germanic Templars]

Good way to get the mods on yer booty.

"Fuck" is not against site rules.

I was more concern about him saying "fuck you" to the other person.

[Thellonya]

lel
so apparently people get their feeling hurt over fuck you?

boohoo
whatevs, im out for now, gonna rethink why the hell i even thought it was a good idea to post back in here in the first place.

[Constantinopolis]

You're the one who believes in fairy tales about heroic governments sending their armies to help unfortunate souls out of the goodness of their big fluffy politician hearts, without any self-interest at all, and you mock me with jokes about lizard-men?

There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. A. Benevolent. Armed. Operation.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go back to kindergarten.

So are UN peacekeepers imperialist?

No. They are self-interested. That doesn't mean they're out to grab land or anything else. Often they really are just trying to stop a conflict before it gets out of hand, because the interests of the governments sending those peacekeepers would be threatened if the conflict got out of hand.

I said there is no such thing as benevolence in international relations. That doesn't mean governments are being dicks just for the lolz.

All just neocolonialist imperialist land-grabs conducted by self-interested parties, right bro?
You're so edgy I think you might just be a circle.

Who said anything about land-grabs? There is more to a government's self-interest than just land. Or resources, for that matter.

The purpose of UN peacekeeping operations is usually more or less what it says on the box: to keep the peace. But they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they're doing it because they want to stop a conflict that threatens their interests. And sometimes they do it to curry favor with the electorate back home, or with other governments.

[Germanic Templars]

lel
so apparently people get their feeling hurt over fuck you?

boohoo
whatevs, im out for now, gonna rethink why the hell i even thought it was a good idea to post back in here in the first place.

It's not about hurt feelings, mate. Fuck I could care less. It is about following the site's rules. Saying "fuck you" to someone can be seen as flaming.

[Neoconstantius]

lel
so apparently people get their feeling hurt over fuck you?

boohoo
whatevs, im out for now, gonna rethink why the hell i even thought it was a good idea to post back in here in the first place.

Doesn't bother me much, but there are rules of civility for this forum. Can't engage in any type of mature, rational discussion if one party is merely flinging juvenile, angry insults at the other.

[Constantinopolis]

You believe the crap that you spew? And so we get to be liberated by Russia, because we dare join the EU? Are you fucking serious? And so what if we choose to join the most powerful alliance/economy thing, that is OUR choice, and for what the fuck ever reason Russia seems to go, lolnope sorry ukraine, we is of taking land from you, AND you cant join the EU! so fuck off what that nonsense

You speak for Ukraine as if you're the leader of some national hivemind. You really think EU integration is the aspiration of the majority of Ukrainians? You really think the current Kiev government, which shells and injures and kills its own civilians and oppresses its own people, represents the will of the entire populace? If that were the case, then Yanukovych, the president that HALF the country voted for, wouldn't needed to have been illegally removed in an undemocratic coup. Ukrainian apologists and nationalists scream about "freedom" and "democracy", but they have risen to power through the exact opposite of these ideals. The hypocrisy is unfathomable.

As a Rusyn, I will not let Kiev and western Ukraine send my family and friends to be slaughtered for some rabid nationalistic fantasies.

I just wanted to say, THANK YOU for this post. I agree with you completely. And I wish all the best for you and your family.

Even without the war, the Kiev government would be ruining the country with brutal austerity. They are delusional, and, one way or another, their regime will not last long. The only question is what comes after.

[Lyttenburg]

unn.com.ua, with "Єдина Країна. Единая Страна." as a tagline. Oh yeah, sounds real Russian biased.

You do know I can't read Russian or anything Cyrillic.

But this is not stopping you from calling even the Ukrainian sources "pro-Russian"? Gee, ignorance is such a wonderful excuse!

[Senkaku]

It may already have been posted, but two Russian armored columns, preceded by a barrage of Grad missiles, have crossed into Ukraine, although Moscow denies this.

[Germanic Templars]

You do know I can't read Russian or anything Cyrillic.

But this is not stopping you from calling even the Ukrainian sources "pro-Russian"? Gee, ignorance is such a wonderful excuse!

From people who are Pro-Russian? Yup. [Sarcasm] is ignorance right there not pointing out obvious fact.[/sarcasm]

[Senkaku]

It may already have been posted, but two Russian armored columns, preceded by a barrage of Grad missiles, have crossed into Ukraine, although Moscow denies this.

Here's another source.


NATO and the US have confirmed the allegations, and Obama is about to release a statement.

[Tahar Joblis]

Who said anything about land-grabs? There is more to a government's self-interest than just land. Or resources, for that matter.

The purpose of UN peacekeeping operations is usually more or less what it says on the box: to keep the peace. But they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they're doing it because they want to stop a conflict that threatens their interests. And sometimes they do it to curry favor with the electorate back home, or with other governments.

More specifically, the UN (and a number of civilized countries) view any aggressive land-grabs as a threat to world peace, and therefore to all nations' interests.

See, some people learned from the Great War. This is why Wilson came up with the idea of the League of Nations; he identified that the practice of unchecked exercise of national interests by individual nations was itself something that wasn't in the interest of most nations. So nations could and should band together to declare peace and prevent violations of the peace.

But the League of Nations wasn't very effective, and so Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Fascist Italy, and Soviet Russia all went a-conquering and started a second Great War, soon known as "World War 2." So then the winners of that war sat down and said "Look, this really isn't working. How can we try to fix it?" and formed the modern UN, with substantially more teeth than the League of Nations.

It didn't work perfectly, but UN peacekeeping today is largely aligned with the principles hammered out then: Self-determination, respect for national sovereignty, etc. And Russia's present actions violate international law precisely because they're the sort of actions that led up to WWII and were identified as problematic afterwards.