Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Shofercia]

Seriously? The Circassians? Why not the Native Americans? When are the Native Americans getting Long Island back? Don't you find it fucking stunning that businesses, which sometimes work to short Native American casinos, are built on the bones of Native American ancestors? Let's tear down Wall Street, who's with me? /sarcasm

I really question if you read anything I write, or if you just skim over it.

Oh no, I remember you and your posts: viewtopic.php?p=21213263#p21213263

In that gem of a post, you proceed to claim that I brought up Odessa to distract from the MH-17 tragedy, whereas, in reality, I brought up Odessa in response to your query, and Odessa was mentioned before MH-17. After seeing that utterly pathetic attack of yours discredited, I thought you'd leave.

I'm not American, I don't support the treatment of the Native Americans, and I think that a separate native nation should exist. Are you pleased now? Alright, now that we've accomplished burning your strawman down, next part.

Did you miss the "/sarcasm" tag? Because it was there, in black and white. I was using the Native Americans as an example of how phenomenally stupid that criticism was. You don't get to claim that all construction must be stopped because it's on your "Holy Grounds" or whatever, especially if there was already existing infrastructure in the area. Also, no major power is going to go along with those insane proposals, not Russia, not America, not China.

At least in Canada and the US natives can still live in the land, but Russia didn't even give them that luxury.

Wow, there's another completely clueless line by Dalcaria. So you're saying that no land for Circassians/Adyghe exists in Russia, right? Is that why they have their very own Republic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adygea

Dalcaria, this is bad. A Republic in Russia is much more autonomous than a Reservation in the US. And you just claimed that a Republic of 2,900 square miles, with a population of 440,000, doesn't exist. Dalcaria, I love telling you this: the facts are beating the living shit out of you. They're pounding you. They're mercilessly punching you in the face and kicking you in the groin. I strongly recommend that you stop fighting the facts. They have a tendency to win. I'm on their side. I'm not on your side. But this is just too much of a slaughter for me to enjoy.

Since you mentioned refugee statistics, let's look at those: http://news.yahoo.com/russia-struggles- ... 11404.html

Yeah, the 300'000 or so. I do wonder where they would be if Pro-Russian fighters had, oh I don't know, not started fighting?

Yes, yes, in Dalcaria's World everything is Russia's fault. Personally, I wonder if they would've rebelled had Odessa not occurred, and if Taruta and Kolomoiski were not superimposed as governors. Speaking of democracy, when are gubernatorial elections taking place? Oh, and the number that the article had was over 500,000. You do comprehend that you trimming that to 300,000 or so, when the number's right there, in source, just makes your posts look stupid, right?

And I assume you're aware of the refugees who've gone to other parts of the Ukraine as well then, correct?

Yes. I'm also aware that it's a lesser number, but that's besides the point, since I've stated that all refugees should be allowed to return before a self-determination vote takes place.

So hundreds of thousands of refugees are indeed fleeing, to Russia. There have generally been less refugees fleeing to Ukraine than to Russia. But hey, Dalcaria, you did have lots of pathos in your post though, I mean you got all of your facts wrong, but the pathos was good. So, how about a 1/10?

Yeah, and where do you think people in Kiev would flee to if they were under attack? Russia, or maybe, hmm, I don't know, Ukraine?

It's a bit hard to flee from Ukraine to Ukraine. You probably meant "other parts of Ukraine".

I'm not surprised that Russian's are going to Russia,

Have you an actual source that all of the refugees going to Russia are Russians, or is this even more bullshit that you just pulled out of your ass?

And remember everyone, DO NOT forget Odessa!

I don't see how wanting to punish thugs who burned their fellow citizens alive is a bad thing, so I don't understand why you're making fun of that.

And all my facts were wrong? What facts did I even provide? I seriously think you don't even read my posts at this point, you just kind of wing it. lulz

So you're accusing me of not reading you posts after you cannot remember the facts that you provided? I'm not going to bother looking up your previous post, but in this one, you did provide a "fact" that's actually a lie, contradicted by facts that exist in reality: At least in Canada and the US natives can still live in the land, but Russia didn't even give them that luxury.

Republics of "natives" in Russia:

Adyghea, Bashkortostan, Buryatia, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, Kalmykia, Karachay–Cherkessia, Sakha (Yakutia), North Ossetia–Alania, Tatarstan...

That's actually the short list. But you're right about one thing Dalcaria, you're much better off not making any factual claims.

Pfft! Yeah, and they did a brilliant job in Chechnya and Dagestan too didn't they?

They prevented Genocide in Dagestan and took out an Al Qaeda like group in Chechnya. In reality we know those as successes. Any sane individual would rather have the Russians in Chechnya than Al Qaeda in Chechnya. It really is a no brainer.

[Shofercia]

If they were building an attack force, I'd support them 100%. We need to end this conflict already. If it won't resolve by itself, Russia must resolve it by force.

No, Russia just needs to shut up, sit down and let the Adults handle the situation.

Would these be the same "adults" that left a giant mess in Iraq and Libya? Why don't these "adults" handle those messes first, eh?

Wow, just listen to yourself!

Sound advice, I suggest that you take it.

Actually, let me put it in perspective! "We need to end WW2 already. If it won't resolve itself, Nazi Germany must resolve it by force."

You really should stop posting that hyborle material. Comparing modern Russia to Nazi Germany was discredited many times, and it's just so passe. It's like a really, really, really bad, piss poor, utterly nonsensical remake of McCarthyism.

Am I comparing Putin to Hitler? You be I am!

Of course you are. Because you're not here for facts, you're here to make hyberbolic posts about how ubah-ebul Putin is. It's a phenomenally idiotic comparison, it's so bad that I think drinking a bottle of vodka would still kill less brain cells than reading that narrow minded statement.

But that's not what matters, what matters is the horrendously narrow-mindedness to this statement!

Oh, the irony!

A Russian victory is justified because it ends a war, even if millions get killed for it

Is there a specific hyperbole quota that your posts must present?

You know, this war WOULD have resolved itself is Russia had stayed out of Ukraine's business in the FIRST PLACE.

This war would actually be over if Poroshenko withdraws the Ukrainian Army from the DonBass Republic, aka the Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts, and let's them hold a UN monitored, democratic referendum on self-determination. That would end the war and bring democracy to Ukraine.

[Shofercia]

Oh look..

"Dissolution of the Soviet Union"

Get with the fucking times.

Wait, are you just salty because Russia lacks the power to actually intervene around the world?

Russia lacks said power?

LOL! The amount of ignorance in this post is just wow.

NATO won't need it because they won't engage Russia in battle. Hopefully they aren't that stupid.
M.A.D.

You really don't understand M.A.D. do you? It exists to prevent NUCLEAR war, not all wars! The only reason M.A.D. would ever come up is if it looked like NATO was going to march all the way to Moscow. Really, the only one who would be stupid for even CONSIDERING using nukes for anything outside of that would probably be Putin. Why, why exactly would anyone put their nation's existence at risk over just Ukraine? No, M.A.D. would not come into play at all, and I'm bewildered anyone is still thinking that.

So a Russia-NATO engagement is going to be small?

It;s you, who haven't read Russian history, as was demonstrated repeatedly in this very thread.

- "Golodomor" affected all USSR, not only UkSSR. Stop this really pointless whining "Ebul Russians genociding good Ukrainians with famine". This was adressed so many times on this forum.

- There are still Ciracassians living in Russia. Even near Sochi. Oh, by the way, when Russian Empire conquered Siberia and the Far Eeast it, strangely enough, didn't employed such "high-tech" and "progrssive" methods, that were employed dutring the colonization of both of Americs by much more "civilized" westerners. Thanks to that, all that native people still live in their Autonomous Republics. Now, in the RF lives more than 180 ethnicities, the vast majority of them - native to that land. Can "The Citadel of Freedom and the Bastion of Democracy" say the same about itself?

- Russia didn't "stole" Crimea from Tartars. Russian Empire conquered it in the second half of th 18th century. Before that, Crimean Khanate (vassals of the Ottoman Empire) existed as in that area, which primary "buiseness" consisted in raiding, pillaging, burning, killing and taking slaves of all its neighbours. Not to mention, that they came to that area with mongols in 13th century.

P.S.

And you, as Her Majestie's Subject, should perhaps, remember all the gory and nasty fact about your own Empire, before which "Russian crimes" simply pale.

And this justified the deportation how? Fuck it, lets deport the tatars for no fucking reason!

What Lyt actually said is that Stalin was wrong to deport the Crimean Tatars the second time, but the first time was acceptable, because said Crimean Tatars were raiding Russian lands and kidnapping Russians as slaves. If Ukraine tried that today, they'd be wiped off the map as a country. Thankfully, even Poroshenko is not that insane, but Yarosh is getting ideas. Raiding, and/or otherwise attacking Russia, can make one's country disappear. Also: http://jordantimes.com/vladimir-putin-s ... ean-tatars

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday he had signed a decree rehabilitating Crimea’s Tatars, native inhabitants of the peninsula who were deported under Stalin over accusations of Nazi collaboration and who fiercely oppose the region’s new Moscow-backed authorities. “I have signed a decree to rehabilitate the Crimean Tatar population of Crimea, the Armenian population, Germans, Greeks, all those who suffered during Stalin’s purges,” Putin told a government meeting. Crimea’s 300,000 Tatars, who make up around 12 per cent of the peninsula’s population, largely boycotted a disputed referendum last month in which nearly 97 per cent of voters chose to split from Ukraine and join Russia. The decree calls for “historical justice [and] a political, social and spiritual revival” for the Crimean Tatars and other groups deported under Stalin.

[Lyttenburg]

And this justified the deportation how? Fuck it, lets deport the tatars for no fucking reason!

You in your much more Free and Liberal countries can do anythig you want. Surely, even in WW2 said cauntries remained the paragon of Democracy and Respect of Human Rights, that you Value so High.

Oh, wait.

But surely, you can find some excuse, why this was totally okay to strip an enormous number of citizens if the Glorious US of A of their constitution given rights, while Stalin's treatment of Tatar (some of whom, indeed, collaborated with Nazi's forces) is despicable and savage.

[starts to eat семки]

[Estruia]

And this justified the deportation how? Fuck it, lets deport the tatars for no fucking reason!

You in your much more Free and Liberal countries can do anythig you want. Surely, even in WW2 said cauntries remained the paragon of Democracy and Respect of Human Rights, that you Value so High.

Oh, wait.

But surely, you can find some excuse, why this was totally okay to strip an enormous number of citizens if the Glorious US of A of their constitution given rights, while Stalin's treatment of Tatar (some of whom, indeed, collaborated with Nazi's forces) is despicable and savage.

[pulls out and statrts to eat семки]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

Most of the pro Russian people I've seen seem to use the "Well you did it!" argument like it's a good thing. It really isn't.

[Estruia]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

Most of the pro Russian people I've seen seem to use the "Well you did it!" argument like it's a good thing. It really isn't.

Lyttenburg seems incapable of using anything BUT the "Well you did it!" argument.

[Aeken]

And this justified the deportation how? Fuck it, lets deport the tatars for no fucking reason!

You in your much more Free and Liberal countries can do anythig you want. Surely, even in WW2 said cauntries remained the paragon of Democracy and Respect of Human Rights, that you Value so High.

Oh, wait.

But surely, you can find some excuse, why this was totally okay to strip an enormous number of citizens if the Glorious US of A of their constitution given rights, while Stalin's treatment of Tatar (some of whom, indeed, collaborated with Nazi's forces) is despicable and savage.

[pulls out and statrts to eat семки]

Heh, "pulls out". Heh heh heh.

[Lyttenburg]

Before adressing your answer, here is a short version.

Now point-by-point:

And your point is? Russians went into Ukraine and starved out millions because they didn't want to share with Russia. So maybe it's you that needs to stop whining about the "ebul Ukrainians not sharing wid Russia".

Ahem. May I see some proof that, indeed, "Russians went into Ukraine" and then "starved out millions because they didn't want to share with Russia" (by working dark communistic magic, I presume?). You know anything about that period, besides the official propaganda, that you are supplied daily by the newest Western iteration of the "Ministry of Truth" ?(Now privately owned)

Uh, fantastic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Circassians According to this nearly 90% of the people affected were deported, so I don't see how some Ciracassians living in Russia justifies this any more.

I find it extremely hypocritical when Western media, public and governments SUDDENLY become very concerned about the so called "Circassians ethnic cleansing", while their respective rulers at that time had already spilled an entire seas of blood in their colonial pursuits. Currently in Russia (2010 Census) lives 718 727 Circassians. How many natives that encountered merciful grip of the Western colonization can boast such number? No, better to ask - how many can't?

I'm not really sure how Russia being (according to you) nice to the Siberians makes their treatment of Ciracassians, Jews, Tartars, etc. justified. Care to explain the logic there? Also, if by Bastion of Democracy you mean the British, you actually can say that in many ways. Ever heard of Tecumseh's Confederation? Yeah, that was the British. Also, the natives chose sides in a lot of the wars between France and Britain, probably over matters of trade and, believe it or not, per-existing tribal tensions.

No, I was talking about the US of A. Nowadays GB is their faithful vassal. Also, I find your logic "Natives would killed themselves even without Western powers meddling" really charming and perverse.

And so the Tartars continued this into the second half of the 18th century too?

No. Steps were taken to prevent it once and for all.

I'm pretty sure they stopped quite a while before that, and no, Russia didn't invade for revenge, they did it to expand their territory, so don't even try to blame this on "the Tartars started it!"

Oh, so you, who was so snarly and sure of knowledge about Russian history don't really know the facts - just "sure". How would be life easier for the uncountable number of lazy schoolchildren, if instead of studying and leaning something new, they could just say "I'm sure of it!" and teachers just agreed. There were numerous raids even in the 18 century. The last big (70 000 strong) slave-taking raid of the Crimean Tatars happened in 1769, during the Russo-Turkish war of 1768-1774. And after that war Crimean Khanate was annexed by the Russian empire.

But you are "pretty sure" of what you believe in, kid, so you can just ignore this nasty facts and live your life of "sureness".

By the way, just because Russians killed millions of Ukrainians in the Ukrainian famine, does that mean they are justified in killing Russians today?

As you you build your argument on the "sureness" in some things - why are you so "sure" that only "Russians" are killed by the Ukrainian today? Or, what, you follow the logic of the rabid Ukrainian Nationalist groups, that postulate that - "if someone is killed in the East by the pro-Kiev forces, it makes said killed person Russian by default". Charming logic!

Kiev used to be the Capital of Russia at one point.

There was not "Russia" at that time period. Saying that Kiev was some sort of capital even in the mid 12 century is like saying that Aachen in the same period was still the capital of the "Germany".

And, again, it is YOU who need basic education in the matters of Russian history, Golodomor and the instances when "unjustly deported" by Stalin's nation indeed collaborated with Hitler's forces.

[Lyttenburg]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

Most of the pro Russian people I've seen seem to use the "Well you did it!" argument like it's a good thing. It really isn't.

No, just pointing out West's (and the Westerners) hypocricy when it comes to crtitisize Russia. Funny thing - I can't remember Western public, pundits and the government officials paying so much attention to the "crimes" of the Russians when good ol' Drunken Boris (big friend of the West) was in power. But now! Oh, the fury! Oh, the indignation!

[Washington Resistance Army]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

Most of the pro Russian people I've seen seem to use the "Well you did it!" argument like it's a good thing. It really isn't.

No, just pointing out West's (and the Westerners) hypocricy when it comes to crtitisize Russia. Funny thing - I can't remember Western public, pundits and the government officials paying so much attention to the "crimes" of the Russians when good ol' Drunken Boris (big friend of the West) was in power. But now! Oh, the fury! Oh, the indignation!

You do know most every person on this forum has agreed Yeltsin was pure shit in every sense of the word right? I think you'd be hard pressed to find one person who says otherwise.

[Lyttenburg]

You do know most every person on this forum has agreed Yeltsin was pure shit in every sense of the word right? I think you'd be hard pressed to find one person who says otherwise.

No sweat! Easily.

Yeltsin!? How was he good in any way?

For fighting the communists in the Duma, and moving Russia towards a free market. Granted, there were some problems with implementation; too much of it went to the mob. But that would have eventually sorted itself out.

See, there is this forum function called "Search".

[Costa Fierro]

So one person is apparently representative of millions.

[Estruia]

You do know most every person on this forum has agreed Yeltsin was pure shit in every sense of the word right? I think you'd be hard pressed to find one person who says otherwise.

No sweat! Easily.

For fighting the communists in the Duma, and moving Russia towards a free market. Granted, there were some problems with implementation; too much of it went to the mob. But that would have eventually sorted itself out.

See, there is this forum function called "Search".

One forum-goer =/= The West.

[Lyttenburg]

So one person is apparently representative of millions.

One forum-goer =/= The West.

User WRA asked me to find one - I found one, while he beleived that I won't find any.

[Estruia]

So one person is apparently representative of millions.

One forum-goer =/= The West.

User WRA asked me to find one - I found one, while he beleived that I won't find any.

Congrats, you wasted your time on something that has absolutely no relevancy! Woohoo!

[Lyttenburg]

User WRA asked me to find one - I found one, while he beleived that I won't find any.

Congrats, you wasted your time on something that has absolutely no relevancy! Woohoo!

Oh, you are so right! When some people are so indoctrinated in their "oh so superior" Western Truths, no matter what facts they are presented with - nothing can shake their ignorance.

Now. have you anything else useful to add, or all counter-arguments I will hear from you Westerners would be tried and tested playgorund's "Neh-neh-neh-neh-na! It doesn't count!"ones ?

[Estruia]

Congrats, you wasted your time on something that has absolutely no relevancy! Woohoo!

Oh, you are so right! When some people are so indoctrinated in their "oh so superior" Western Truths, no matter what facts they are presented with - nothing can shake their ignorance.

The only one I see here, who consistently acts superior to others, is you. You, on many occasions, ridicule the West for no reason other than your own hatred for the West. You try to belittle Western posters, and you do nothing but use silly little monikers when you reference anything that has to do with the West.

You may want to step back a moment, reevaluate yourself, and your interactions on this thread, then come back.

[Washington Resistance Army]

So one person is apparently representative of millions.

One forum-goer =/= The West.

User WRA asked me to find one - I found one, while he beleived that I won't find any.

You did find one, so I am admittedly kinda shocked about that.

[Lyttenburg]

The only one I see here, who consistently acts superior to others, is you. You, on many occasions, ridicule the West for no reason other than your own hatred for the West. You try to belittle Western posters, and you do nothing but use silly little monikers when you reference anything that has to do with the West.

You may want to step back a moment, reevaluate yourself, and your interactions on this thread, then come back.

Pfft! I don't "hate" the West. It doesn't deserve that.

I actually pity it.

[Oaledonia]

Pfft! I don't "hate" the West. It doesn't deserve that.

I actually pity it.

Good. Because Russia is ran by the barbarian hordes and needs to embrace the west as it's savior!

[Corumm]

Dalcaria is getting pounded on from all corners.

There's no coming back from such a beating.

[The New Lowlands]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

Most of the pro Russian people I've seen seem to use the "Well you did it!" argument like it's a good thing. It really isn't.

No, just pointing out West's (and the Westerners) hypocricy when it comes to crtitisize Russia. Funny thing - I can't remember Western public, pundits and the government officials paying so much attention to the "crimes" of the Russians when good ol' Drunken Boris (big friend of the West) was in power. But now! Oh, the fury! Oh, the indignation!

CNN seemed to have no problem reporting on it.

[Tahar Joblis]

Haha... So, the Internment camps excuse everything Russia has ever done against her own people? Good to know.

Most of the pro Russian people I've seen seem to use the "Well you did it!" argument like it's a good thing. It really isn't.

No, just pointing out West's (and the Westerners) hypocricy when it comes to crtitisize Russia. Funny thing - I can't remember Western public, pundits and the government officials paying so much attention to the "crimes" of the Russians when good ol' Drunken Boris (big friend of the West) was in power. But now! Oh, the fury! Oh, the indignation!

Bullshit. The Western public never stopped paying attention to the past crimes of Russia, and even Yeltsin was viewed with some skepticism... especially when he was busily invading Chechnya. It wasn't until 2001 and the famous War on Ebil Muslims Terror that the US public could even be viewed as having lukewarm support for Russian actions in Chechnya.

Really, is screaming that the West is hypocritical (largely by ignoring or fabricating context) the best that you can do?

Face basic facts:

Russia has invaded another sovereign country.
Russia has inflamed ethnic tensions in Crimea.
Russia has provided arms, funding, and personnel to create a civil war out of whole cloth. It never would have even started without the Russians sending "tourists" in to march in protests and an assortment of FSB-affiliated organizers - Borodai, Strelkov, and the like.

Russia, and in particular Putin's administration thereof, is in the wrong here. End of story.

[Costa Fierro]

Pfft! I don't "hate" the West. It doesn't deserve that.

I actually pity it.

Why?