Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Constantinopolis]

So, the fact that the Communist Party of Ukraine, which has clearly shown to be a puppet of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, is almost being banned by the government of Ukraine, is suddenly A Bad Thing (TM)?

Yeah, what could possibly be wrong with banning political parties for the sole reason that you don't like their ideology, while at the same time claiming to be a totally spotless liberal democracy with no fascist tendencies whatsoever?

And regarding the "puppet of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation" claim - do you think Sinn Fein should be banned in the United Kingdom? Because, you know, it advocates loss of national territory, and is a puppet of the exact same party as Sinn Fein in the Republic of Ireland.

Or what about Bloc Québécois in Canada? A bunch of traitors to the fatherland, amirite? Lock them all up in the name of freedom and democracy!

The point being, actual democratic countries allow even OPEN SEPARATIST PARTIES to operate freely. Sometimes even parties that supported armed insurrection in the past (such as Sinn Fein). So no, Ukraine doesn't get to ban a party on suspicion that it may sympathize with Russia and call itself democratic.

[Germanic Templars]

Yes.

Hmm.. It's tempting.

Would join up if I had 30 days of leave, and my Chain of Command was okay with me doing this... Which they won't be so I am stuck where I am at.

[Slavonian kingdom]

Yeah, what could possibly be wrong with banning political parties for the sole reason that you don't like their ideology, while at the same time claiming to be a totally spotless liberal democracy with no fascist tendencies whatsoever?

The CP of Ukraine is facing charges of collaborating the Rebels. So the ban would be more than valid as it is unconstitutional to support the people who are fighting your government.

[Kelinfort]

If Russia is truly concerned about the rise of Svoboda, why do they continue to make comments and actions that are aggressive or could be construed as aggressive?

[Constantinopolis]

Yeah, what could possibly be wrong with banning political parties for the sole reason that you don't like their ideology, while at the same time claiming to be a totally spotless liberal democracy with no fascist tendencies whatsoever?

The CP of Ukraine is facing charges of collaborating the Rebels. So the ban would be more than valid as it is unconstitutional to support the people who are fighting your government.

The Kiev government openly talked of banning the CP of Ukraine within a few weeks after the fall of Yanukovych, long before there was any rebellion. They've tried to use several different excuses and made-up charges in the time since then.

Meanwhile, the CP of Ukraine has made every effort to publicly distance itself from the rebels. It's pretty clear the government doesn't care, and wants to destroy them for ideological reasons.

[Arglorand]

Yeah, what could possibly be wrong with banning political parties for the sole reason that you don't like their ideology, while at the same time claiming to be a totally spotless liberal democracy with no fascist tendencies whatsoever?

The CP of Ukraine is facing charges of collaborating the Rebels. So the ban would be more than valid as it is unconstitutional to support the people who are fighting your government.

Aye.

None of you would be up in arms about this if it was Svoboda which was facing charges of separatism. The CPU is a Russian fascist party, is what it is. There's no denying Svoboda is also at the very least quasifascist, but unlike the CPU, Svoboda exists as a reaction to and not as an arm of the Russian aggression. Both of these endanger Ukrainian democracy, except the only way to deal with Svoboda, unlike the CPU, is not to ban it, but to make it irrelevant by rendering the source of its popularity - Russia - irrelevant.

[Occupied Deutschland]

If Russia is truly concerned about the rise of Svoboda, why do they continue to make comments and actions that are aggressive or could be construed as aggressive?

Because, as wonderfully portrayed by the election 'observers' they brought in to Crimea and the subsequent neo-nazi conference party there, they don't give a good goddamn about the rise of neo-nazis in Europe.

Svoboda and Pravy Sektor are nothing but convenient smokescreens.

[Constantinopolis]

None of you would be up in arms about this if it was Svoboda which was facing charges of separatism.

Yes I would, actually. I am vehemently opposed to banning any party, anywhere, including Svoboda.

Besides, I would actually support Western Ukrainian separatism, if there was such a thing. It would be great if they had their own country, joined the EU, and left the rest of Ukraine alone.

[Slavonian kingdom]

The Kiev government openly talked of banning the CP of Ukraine within a few weeks after the fall of Yanukovych, long before there was any rebellion. They've tried to use several different excuses and made-up charges in the time since then.

Meanwhile, the CP of Ukraine has made every effort to publicly distance itself from the rebels. It's pretty clear the government doesn't care, and wants to destroy them for ideological reasons.

As I remeber correctly the pro-Russian separatists started to arming to so long after the fall of Yanukovich so even if that argument of your is valid, the Kiev government could not have banned it as it had no charges of which it could have banned it.

Now, there are evidence that the CPU is supporting the Rebels so the ban would be ok.

[Kelinfort]

If Russia is truly concerned about the rise of Svoboda, why do they continue to make comments and actions that are aggressive or could be construed as aggressive?

Because, as wonderfully portrayed by the election 'observers' they brought in to Crimea and the subsequent neo-nazi conference party there, they don't give a good goddamn about the rise of neo-nazis in Europe.

Svoboda and Pravy Sektor are nothing but convenient smokescreens.

Which is why I said, "truly".

[Slavonian kingdom]

Aye.

None of you would be up in arms about this if it was Svoboda which was facing charges of separatism. The CPU is a Russian fascist party, is what it is. There's no denying Svoboda is also at the very least quasifascist, but unlike the CPU, Svoboda exists as a reaction to and not as an arm of the Russian aggression. Both of these endanger Ukrainian democracy, except the only way to deal with Svoboda, unlike the CPU, is not to ban it, but to make it irrelevant by rendering the source of its popularity - Russia - irrelevant.

Banning Svoboda is not the same as banning the CPU. CPU is a foreign imported element in the Ukraine.

[Yorkopolis]

None of you would be up in arms about this if it was Svoboda which was facing charges of separatism.

Yes I would, actually. I am vehemently opposed to banning any party, anywhere, including Svoboda.

Besides, I would actually support Western Ukrainian separatism, if there was such a thing. It would be great if they had their own country, joined the EU, and left the rest of Ukraine alone.

Oh, yes, I do definitely support Western Ukrainian separatism as well. That is, Ukraine in its current de jure borders, so it can leave the republic of Eastern Ukraine alone. That is, the territories under temporary occupation by Russia, Voronezh, Rostov, and Kuban.

Thank you very much for supporting this great cause!

[Arglorand]

Western Ukrainians have their own country. Ukraine. As do Eastern Ukrainians, whose country is Ukraine. There is no other country in Ukraine, like there is no letter B in the word "counterproductive".

Those who would divide it into anything other than regional divisions literally do not know what they're talking about and probably have never spoken to an actual Ukrainian.

I would, however, gladly support the independence of Eastern Ukraine. By which I mean the Ukrainian Far Eastern Republic of Zeleny Klyn, currently sadly under the 100-year-long occupation of the Mordorian Empire.

[Constantinopolis]

You know what you're stating? You're stating that a nation that's simply fighting for its own god damned independence is worse than a nation that's looking to oppress and virtually assimilate the nation that's trying to fight for its own independence? You're saying that a nation fighting for its independence, is worse than a nation that has people like Igor "Strelkov" Girkin in its ranks? People who have been linked to massacres of at least 3000 Bosnian Muslims? You'd rather support a nation that has, on numerous occasions, invaded other nations for the pure cause of territorial gain and its own ultranationalist dick, than a nation that's trying to avoid that dick being slapped all across its face?

Nation nation nation nation nation. You sure love to talk about nations a lot, as if every nation is a kind of hive mind that must be judged by "the kinds of people it has in its ranks". As if nations are the actors of history, not individuals or social classes or interest groups or political parties. As if having "bad guys" in your nation makes the entire nation somehow polluted and evil, or as if having "good guys" in your nation makes the entire nation somehow noble and heroic.

You've literally said that some nations are better than others, and the better nations deserve to beat the worse nations in war.

"Better" nations. "Worse" nations. "Superior" nations. "Inferior" nations. You do realize what kind of worldview you're endorsing here, right?

Treating nations as the actors of history and judging people based on which nation they belong to (or support) is LITERALLY one of the foundations of the fascist worldview.

[Constantinopolis]

Banning Svoboda is not the same as banning the CPU. CPU is a foreign imported element in the Ukraine.

Ooooh, "foreign imported element"! I haven't heard that one in a while. Yes, let us cleanse our glorious pure Ukrainian nation of foreign elements! 'Cause that's totally liberal and democratic and stuff, and doesn't sound similar to the f-word at all.

(besides, those commies are all a bunch of Jews, right? )

[Constantinopolis]

Oh, yes, I do definitely support Western Ukrainian separatism as well. That is, Ukraine in its current de jure borders, so it can leave the republic of Eastern Ukraine alone. That is, the territories under temporary occupation by Russia, Voronezh, Rostov, and Kuban.

Psst - your Russophobia is showing. You shouldn't wave it around in polite company like that.

Those who would divide it into anything other than regional divisions literally do not know what they're talking about and probably have never spoken to an actual Ukrainian.

...which is why I said that I would actually support Western Ukrainian separatism, "if there was such a thing". I know that it does not exist.

[Yorkopolis]

You know what you're stating? You're stating that a nation that's simply fighting for its own god damned independence is worse than a nation that's looking to oppress and virtually assimilate the nation that's trying to fight for its own independence? You're saying that a nation fighting for its independence, is worse than a nation that has people like Igor "Strelkov" Girkin in its ranks? People who have been linked to massacres of at least 3000 Bosnian Muslims? You'd rather support a nation that has, on numerous occasions, invaded other nations for the pure cause of territorial gain and its own ultranationalist dick, than a nation that's trying to avoid that dick being slapped all across its face?

Nation nation nation nation nation. You sure love to talk about nations a lot, as if every nation is a kind of hive mind that must be judged by "the kinds of people it has in its ranks". As if nations are the actors of history, not individuals or social classes or interest groups or political parties. As if having "bad guys" in your nation makes the entire nation somehow polluted and evil, or as if having "good guys" in your nation makes the entire nation somehow noble and heroic.

You've literally said that some nations are better than others, and the better nations deserve to beat the worse nations in war.

"Better" nations. "Worse" nations. "Superior" nations. "Inferior" nations. You do realize what kind of worldview you're endorsing here, right?

Treating nations as the actors of history and judging people based on which nation they belong to (or support) is LITERALLY one of the foundations of the fascist worldview.

You're not even refuting my point here. Gotta love it though, I am being accused of fascism, when I'm supporting a nation struggling for independence. I am judging here, a nation, on the basis of its government, and on the people in its government. And I am not saying that having "bad guys" in your nation somehow makes your entire nation polluted or evil. The only one who's done so, so far so good, is you. You've accused Ukraine of fascism on the basis that Ukrainian fascists exist. Way to turn the tables bro!

[Germanic Templars]

Oh, yes, I do definitely support Western Ukrainian separatism as well. That is, Ukraine in its current de jure borders, so it can leave the republic of Eastern Ukraine alone. That is, the territories under temporary occupation by Russia, Voronezh, Rostov, and Kuban.

Psst - your Russophobia is showing. You shouldn't wave it around in polite company like that.

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

For all you l know he could like Russian people but hate the damn man in charge (Putin). I know I do.

[Yorkopolis]

Psst - your Russophobia is showing. You shouldn't wave it around in polite company like that.

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

For all you l know he could like Russian people but hate the damn man in charge (Putin). I know I do.

You, my friend. You've nailed it right here. I am extremely interested in Russian culture and have even defended Russians on many an occasion. With Putin, however, I feel I can not have any mercy on criticising the actions that Russians have committed in Ukraine. Nowhere have I stated I hate Russians, and nowhere have I stated I want the Russians dead or genocided. By claiming that I am a Russophobe, you (Constantinopolis) have effectively ran out of arguments and can now resort solely to accusations of Russophobia whenever your point is actually legitimately countered, just like all the other pro-Russia people do.

[Arglorand]

Psst - your Russophobia is showing. You shouldn't wave it around in polite company like that.

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

For all you l know he could like Russian people but hate the damn man in charge (Putin). I know I do.

My paternal side of the family is Russian Orthodox.

Poles by ethnicity, but Russian Orthodox and probably more invested in Russian culture than Polish. And that culture was something that always interested me and I always thought that Russians as people really aren't bad and I still do.

But nah, fuck it, at this point Russophobe has been screamed wolf so many times I honestly stopped being offended at false accusations of Russophobia. At some point, people's opinions of actual Russian people who aren't Putin became entirely irrelevant, and nowadays, if you would openly announce that you would like the Russian government to sink into the Marianas - which I, by god, would love - you're a bloody Russophobe who is practically WORSE THAN HITLER, apparently.

You know what? I'm a bloody Banderite Russophobe Jew Gayist Enabler. Let me wear that badge with pride. На Вкраїні хай пощезне враг.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Psst - your Russophobia is showing. You shouldn't wave it around in polite company like that.

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

For all you l know he could like Russian people but hate the damn man in charge (Putin). I know I do.

How can you not like the Dear Leader? Why he's the greatest man to ever live, he saves the poor Russian's from the evil banderist neo-Nazi Jew westerners and opposes HATO!

[Constantinopolis]

Nation nation nation nation nation. You sure love to talk about nations a lot, as if every nation is a kind of hive mind that must be judged by "the kinds of people it has in its ranks". As if nations are the actors of history, not individuals or social classes or interest groups or political parties. As if having "bad guys" in your nation makes the entire nation somehow polluted and evil, or as if having "good guys" in your nation makes the entire nation somehow noble and heroic.

You've literally said that some nations are better than others, and the better nations deserve to beat the worse nations in war.

"Better" nations. "Worse" nations. "Superior" nations. "Inferior" nations. You do realize what kind of worldview you're endorsing here, right?

Treating nations as the actors of history and judging people based on which nation they belong to (or support) is LITERALLY one of the foundations of the fascist worldview.

You're not even refuting my point here. Gotta love it though, I am being accused of fascism, when I'm supporting a nation struggling for independence. I am judging here, a nation, on the basis of its government, and on the people in its government. And I am not saying that having "bad guys" in your nation somehow makes your entire nation polluted or evil. The only one who's done so, so far so good, is you. You've accused Ukraine of fascism on the basis that Ukrainian fascists exist. Way to turn the tables bro!

I'm not accusing Ukraine - the nation - of anything. I have repeatedly used the phrase "the Kiev government", and other similar ones, to emphasize that I am talking about the current government ruling Ukraine, not the people of Ukraine. And certainly not some mystical hive-minded "Ukrainian nation".

Nations do not have agency. Nations do not act. Groups and individuals within them do. Ukraine is neither good nor bad. Russia is neither good nor bad.

Oh, and struggles for national independence can most certainly be linked to fascism. Remember the Yugoslav wars in the 1990s? There were several instances of pro-independence forces being run by fascists.

And finally, I am not accusing you of being an actual fascist, I am accusing you of embracing the same nation-based worldview that ultimately leads to fascism. I am saying you are on the wrong path.

[Constantinopolis]

Psst - your Russophobia is showing. You shouldn't wave it around in polite company like that.

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

I only brought it up because he was literally talking about the destruction of the Russian state. What else am I supposed to call that?

By claiming that I am a Russophobe, you (Constantinopolis) have effectively ran out of arguments and can now resort solely to accusations of Russophobia whenever your point is actually legitimately countered, just like all the other pro-Russia people do.

...says the guy who is offended at being accused of Russophobia after referring to Voronezh, Rostov, and Kuban as "the republic of Eastern Ukraine under temporary occupation by Russia".

[Geilinor]

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

I only brought it up because he was literally talking about the destruction of the Russian state. What else am I supposed to call that?

He already said that his problem is with Putin and not Russians as a group.

[Germanic Templars]

Seriously, it seems to me Russophobia is the damn rallying cry for every pro Russian here.

I only brought it up because he was literally talking about the destruction of the Russian state. What else am I supposed to call that?

It is not just you, lad.

It was a rather common observation when I sat back and stalked the thread for a while.