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Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:27 pm

Lemanrussland wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:There needs to be negotiation, and a referendum for autonomy should definitely be a part of the settlement.

Chocolate king is apparently willing to give them a measure of autonomy, including protection of the use of the Russian language. He also proposed a jobs program, constitutional reform, and early parliamentary elections.

Hopefully, the violence does largely end by the end of the week, it should unless Russia decides that it wants to attack Ukraine. :meh:

I was kind of hoping for something similar for a "state within a state" kind of settlement, if only because that would mean the KPU would have more power, due to the majority of their voting block being in the East (that is, more power within the autonomous government).

EDIT: I'm betting it will be a bit more than a week, but the Donbass Militia doesn't sound too optimistic.
Last edited by United Marxist Nations on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:30 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Lemanrussland wrote:Poroshenko claimed today (or it might have been yesterday) that he hopes to have the fighting in the Donbass mostly under control by the end of the week.

He's apparently willing to negotiate with them and offer them amnesty, if they give in and "don't have blood on their hands".

There needs to be negotiation, and a referendum for autonomy should definitely be a part of the settlement.

I agree, but it needs to be a referendum organized by the government and carefully monitored by legitimate international observers.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:31 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:There needs to be negotiation, and a referendum for autonomy should definitely be a part of the settlement.

I agree, but it needs to be a referendum organized by the government and carefully monitored by legitimate international observers.

I'm not sure how much the government can really be trusted; I'd prefer if the UN organized it.
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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:31 pm

Lemanrussland wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:There needs to be negotiation, and a referendum for autonomy should definitely be a part of the settlement.

Chocolate king is apparently willing to give them a measure of autonomy, including protection of the use of the Russian language. He also proposed a jobs program, constitutional reform, and early parliamentary elections.

Hopefully, the violence does largely end by the end of the week, it should unless Russia decides that it wants to attack Ukraine. :meh:

I don't think it would at this point. Losing all of the gas money from European sales would absolutely destroy its economy.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:33 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:
Lemanrussland wrote:Chocolate king is apparently willing to give them a measure of autonomy, including protection of the use of the Russian language. He also proposed a jobs program, constitutional reform, and early parliamentary elections.

Hopefully, the violence does largely end by the end of the week, it should unless Russia decides that it wants to attack Ukraine. :meh:

I don't think it would at this point. Losing all of the gas money from European sales would absolutely destroy its economy.

Can Europe really afford to stop buying Russian gas?
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Jinwoy
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Postby Jinwoy » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:08 pm

Dalcaria wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Russia's not exactly close to being fascist, and I don't think he meant that the Ukrainian government is fascist, so much as that it is collaborating with fascists, which is true.

Banning swearing? Arresting people for talking to teens about homosexuality? Sending political activists to Siberia? Annexing another place illegally? Winning a third term as President when he was only meant to have two, plus the President that came between his terms (Medvedev) was a political ally and part of his party? Not to mention the rumors of the election being rigged? Maybe that isn't Fascist, but it is DEFINITELY totalitarian. Also, they were "collaborating" with all of 3 Fascists at most? And REGARDLESS, why is he so far totally silent about the neo-Nazis in Greece, or France, or any other country? Plus, this "collaboration" lead to a legitimate election, more than I can say for Russians collaborating with a man who has stirred up ethnic tensions to achieve his goal of expanding his borders. For the record, I don't recall what he had said specifically about Ukraine and the Fascists, but he was dancing very close to saying the Ukrainian government was a Nazi government. And again, Greece has MORE Fascists in their own government and Putin doesn't say a peep, because he doesn't care about Fascism, he cares about justifying an invasion of Ukraine's sovereign territory. Again, hilarious that the man who tries to ban swearing tries to elude to Ukraine slipping close to a new Nazi country.


I think it might have something to do to protect the massive Russian minority in Ukraine, considering that the ones in other countries aren't really threatened by the rise of Ukrainian Slavic ultranationalism (evidenced by the interim government).

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:I agree, but it needs to be a referendum organized by the government and carefully monitored by legitimate international observers.

I'm not sure how much the government can really be trusted; I'd prefer if the UN organized it.


I think we can trust the Ukraine government on this one, considering how close everyone will be watching.

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:I don't think it would at this point. Losing all of the gas money from European sales would absolutely destroy its economy.

Can Europe really afford to stop buying Russian gas?


No. There was talk of a 'short-term crisis' if Russian gas exports were blocked in Europe. But I also remember that they said something to the power of it being the 'best outcome'.
So in short, nooooooooooooo...ooooooo.
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Postby Oaledonia » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:10 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:I don't think it would at this point. Losing all of the gas money from European sales would absolutely destroy its economy.

Can Europe really afford to stop buying Russian gas?

When the US overtakes Russia in gas exports, yes. In the short term, no.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:58 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:Can Europe really afford to stop buying Russian gas?


That depends. Countries west of Germany can, as the only countries that buy Russian gas are Italy, Belgium and France and this largely represents about 27%, 8% and 14% of the total gas supply respectively. Countries east of Germany are more dependent but are working towards becoming less dependent and countries aligned with Germany (Austria, Switzerland and the Czech Republic) are about half. 49% of Austria's supply comes from Russia, 36% for Germany and 12% for Switzerland.
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:32 am

Dalcaria wrote:Hey, everyone remember how Putin was scaring everyone into thinking that the Ukraine was going to become a Nazi nation?


Oh, goody-goody! I expect, this post will make my day, especially after you admitting in your another post that:

Dalcaria wrote:For the record, I don't recall what he had said specifically about Ukraine and the Fascists, but he was dancing very close to saying the Ukrainian government was a Nazi government.


and all without any links and sources!

So, what we have here:
Dalcaria wrote:I just find that hilarious coming from the nation that is trying to ban swearing in the media.


But of course! Banning swearing in media is 100500% true evidence of being a fascist! No - nazis!


Dalcaria wrote: Also worth noting, how come it is that Ukraine had all of 1-3 Fascist party members in it's parliament


If we are talking about Tiagnibok's "Svoboda" party, then you are dead wrong. Svoboda has 38 deputies, plus, if we are counting rabid nationalist, let's include "Radical Party's" 1 deputy, that makes 39. Yes, just one, but its mega homo sapiens Oleh Lyashko! So, nope, it's more then "1-3". Where did you get that numbers, anyway? Imagined? 'Cause I get a feeling, that your emotion-driven posts are based not on the facts, but on what you have imagined as the "truth". And you want us to believe you, while you fail even to do a basic Google-search before posting? Boy, you are optimist!


Dalcaria wrote: and there are rumors floating around about prisons for homosexuals.


:palm:

Actually, I'm not surprised, that such kind of rumors would SUDDENLY began to float in the Blessed Valinor(tm), Enlightened West, where its freedom loving citizens don't know a thing about Russia, where nearly everything reported about Russia is either distorted, or abridged (and media really love to concentrate on everything bad), so yeah - now we have "rumors" about "prisons for homosexuals".

Hey, Dalcaria, psst! You know, there are rumors floating around, that American Moon landing of 1969 was a fake - a film made by Stanly Kubrik right here on Earth, in Hollywood studio. And all Moon landings are fake, says the same rumor. 'Cause Moon is made of cheese. True story 110%!

P.S. I think it's beyond any hope, that you can provide any links to such "rumor"? By the way, you are the only one who have even mentioned it. Aren't you, perchance, the only person who "floats it around"?

Dalcaria wrote: Anyways, just reminded of all this because I watched "Red Dawn" last night.


:blink:

Willingly? Errrm... may I dare to make a presumption that you are... American?

Now, let's discuss your other funny assumptions that you make in your second post:

Dalcaria wrote:Arresting people for talking to teens about homosexuality?


Aaah! This one! No matter what you say, no matter what arguments you provide - the Enlightened Western Society is absolutely sure in this myth (despite having, like, practically no adequate knowledge of the modern Russia). User Dalcaria (and others equally свiдомые Westerners)! In Russia, nobody is "arrested for talking to teens about homosexuality". The people who break Russian law, that forbids "homosexual propaganda among children and teenagers" are detained, then fined, then released. Nobody is arrested. Got it?

Sending political activists to Siberia?


And another one persisting Westerner myth! "Hurr durr! Russia was always miserable and oppressive! It's rulers have always being sending dissidents to the worst place we, enlightened Westerners, think of because of our honest, clever, well informed media - SIBERIA! OMG!"

I will just ask you to provide a list of said "political activists" sent "to Siberia". I already expecting a huge fun. Don't disappoint me!

Winning a third term as President when he was only meant to have two, plus the President that came between his terms (Medvedev) was a political ally and part of his party?


Alright, alright, Dalcaria, get ready for this, take a deeeeeep breath... ... ... Ready? Sure? Ok, then. Here is a newsflash for you:

RUSSIA HAS DIFFERENT SET OF LAWS THEN USA!

What do you by "when he was only meant to have two"? Russian law only forbids the same person to be elected president 3 times in the row. And no, it wasn't amended by Putin - this was since the Western's darling Ol' Drunk Boris got the power. As for "same party person" argument, well, surely, it was totally unknown in the American history, when President was succeeded by the man from his own party. Oh, wait...

Not to mention the rumors of the election being rigged?


I will gladly examine your, undoubtedly, vast, expansive and totally accurate sources, that proves that every time Putin was elected president only because of election rigging and, therefore, the rightful president of the Russian Federation should be the candidate that got the 2nd biggest number of the votes. You know, the leader of the Communistic Party of the Russian Federation, Gennady Zyuganov.

As for "rumors" that elections in Russia are often rigged, no matter where and when - it's sad, but true. Actually, only thanks to vote rigging, bribes and all around bribery Boris Yeltsyn was re-elected in 1996, beating, you know who - Gennady Zyuganov. The West, what is really strange thing - mystifying, said that elections were totally honest. Strange, huh?

Maybe that isn't Fascist, but it is DEFINITELY totalitarian.


May I have another guess, judging by your propensity to use CAPITAL LETTERS TO MEKE YOUR POINT? You are teenager, right? The blood is hot, and you don't want be stopped by such silly notions like "facts", or "definition of the terms". I suggest that you learn definition of words "fascism" and "Nazism", plus definition of the words "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" (the last one maybe completely new for you).

Also, I have for you such question. You take great lengths to describe a country that a) Annexes foreign territories b) Bans swearing in media c) Has quite murky electoral process as "Fascist". The question: was the Victorian Britain "fascist"?
Last edited by Lyttenburg on Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Scholmeria
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Postby Scholmeria » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:15 am

Lyttenburg wrote:
As for the LARPing of "The Planet of Apes" near the Russian embassy in Kiev, well, the Ukranian Foreign Minister Deshchytsia has called Putin "khuylo" (I'm really not sure, how better to translate it in English - maybe, "fuckwit"?), to the great satisfaction of gathered mob. What would be considered a serious reason for firing state minister, was, actually, supported by the USA ambassador in Kiev G. Pyatt, who have previously called Deshchytsia "able diplomat".


It become a meme and a hit.

https://youtube.com/results?q=putin%20h ... ix%20&sm=1
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Scholmeria
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Postby Scholmeria » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:26 am

Shofercia wrote:
Alien Space Bats wrote:It's called rabid nationalism, and it smells pretty much the same as jock itch.


Like when the US Ambassador to Ukraine tweets "great job" to Ukraine's FM who participated in the attack on Russia's Embassy in Kiev, while the US blocks Russia's Resolution to bring those responsible for the Embassy Attack to Justice?

The Ukrainian embassy in Moscow was also attacked by gas bombs.
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Knask
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Postby Knask » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:52 am

Shofercia wrote:And the Russian Embassy in Kiev was attacked. So, like civilized nations, Russia went to the UNSC and proposed a resolution saying that attacking embassies is bad. The US/UK/France "heroically" vetoed the resolution. Hmm, I wonder, if the American/British/French Embassies were attacked in Russia and Russia vetoed a resolution saying that embassies is bad, what would the American/British/French reaction be?

Preach it! It's amazing how Voice of Russia and RT are the only ones willing to tell the truth about this. Have you seen the insane spin by the rabid russophobe Vitaly Churkin? In his idiotic mind, the US, the UK and France never vetoed the resolution!! Can you believe that??

And he tries to justify this outright lie by saying that there weren't actually any resolution on the table, but only a "press statement". And he blames Lithuania, which, as we all know, is simply a EU puppet of the US/UK/France.

See how the liberal western news media spins this:
In the latest example of the divisions in the council, [Russia's U.N. Ambassador] Churkin said Russia is "disappointed" that the council didn't support a press statement condemning Saturday's attack on the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital.

Press statements require support from all 15 council members and Churkin blamed Lithuania. It was "the only country" that objected, he said.

Lithuania's U.N. Ambassador Raimonda Murmokaite told The Associated Press that all countries supported a condemnation of the embassy attack, but some wanted a parallel or separate condemnation of the downing of a Ukrainian military transport plane by pro-Russia separatists early Saturday which killed all 49 crew and troops aboard.

"Russia called this an unacceptable condition and canceled the statement," she said. "We were not the ones who blocked. It was taken off the table by Russia."

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/russia-circulates-new-un-resolution-ukraine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/17/russia-un-resolution-ceasefire-talks-ukraine
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-to-rally-u-n-support-behind-resolution-on-ukraine/

See the outrageous spin? Compare it to the truthful Russian media:
Meanwhile, the draft resolution condemning the assault on the Russian embassy was blocked by the Lithuanian delegation, Churkin revealed.

http://rt.com/news/166376-churkin-unsc-resolution-ukraine/

Clear evidence of the US/UK/France using the power of veto in a despicable manner! Boo! Hiss!
Last edited by Knask on Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:02 am

Knask wrote:
Shofercia wrote:And the Russian Embassy in Kiev was attacked. So, like civilized nations, Russia went to the UNSC and proposed a resolution saying that attacking embassies is bad. The US/UK/France "heroically" vetoed the resolution. Hmm, I wonder, if the American/British/French Embassies were attacked in Russia and Russia vetoed a resolution saying that embassies is bad, what would the American/British/French reaction be?

Preach it! It's amazing how Voice of Russia and RT are the only ones willing to tell the truth about this. Have you seen the insane spin by the rabid russophobe Vitaly Churkin? In his idiotic mind, the US, the UK and France never vetoed the resolution!! Can you believe that??

And he tries to justify this outright lie by saying that there weren't actually any resolution on the table, but only a "press statement". And he blames Lithuania, which, as we all know, is simply a EU puppet of the US/UK/France.

See how the liberal western news media spins this:
In the latest example of the divisions in the council, [Russia's U.N. Ambassador] Churkin said Russia is "disappointed" that the council didn't support a press statement condemning Saturday's attack on the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital.

Press statements require support from all 15 council members and Churkin blamed Lithuania. It was "the only country" that objected, he said.

Lithuania's U.N. Ambassador Raimonda Murmokaite told The Associated Press that all countries supported a condemnation of the embassy attack, but some wanted a parallel or separate condemnation of the downing of a Ukrainian military transport plane by pro-Russia separatists early Saturday which killed all 49 crew and troops aboard.

"Russia called this an unacceptable condition and canceled the statement," she said. "We were not the ones who blocked. It was taken off the table by Russia."

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/russia-circulates-new-un-resolution-ukraine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/17/russia-un-resolution-ceasefire-talks-ukraine
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-to-rally-u-n-support-behind-resolution-on-ukraine/

See the outrageous spin? Compare it to the truthful Russian media:
Meanwhile, the draft resolution condemning the assault on the Russian embassy was blocked by the Lithuanian delegation, Churkin revealed.

http://rt.com/news/166376-churkin-unsc-resolution-ukraine/

Clear evidence of the US/UK/France using the power of veto in a despicable manner! Boo! Hiss!

I wasn't aware that Lithuania was a shared province of the US, the UK and France. This is not a resolution, it's a press release. All 15 countries on the Security Council have to sign off on press releases. The Lithuanian objections are reasonable: condemn the downing of the Ukrainian transport and we'll condemn the attack on the embassy.
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Knask
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Postby Knask » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:36 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Knask wrote:Preach it! It's amazing how Voice of Russia and RT are the only ones willing to tell the truth about this. Have you seen the insane spin by the rabid russophobe Vitaly Churkin? In his idiotic mind, the US, the UK and France never vetoed the resolution!! Can you believe that??

And he tries to justify this outright lie by saying that there weren't actually any resolution on the table, but only a "press statement". And he blames Lithuania, which, as we all know, is simply a EU puppet of the US/UK/France.

See how the liberal western news media spins this:
In the latest example of the divisions in the council, [Russia's U.N. Ambassador] Churkin said Russia is "disappointed" that the council didn't support a press statement condemning Saturday's attack on the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital.

Press statements require support from all 15 council members and Churkin blamed Lithuania. It was "the only country" that objected, he said.

Lithuania's U.N. Ambassador Raimonda Murmokaite told The Associated Press that all countries supported a condemnation of the embassy attack, but some wanted a parallel or separate condemnation of the downing of a Ukrainian military transport plane by pro-Russia separatists early Saturday which killed all 49 crew and troops aboard.

"Russia called this an unacceptable condition and canceled the statement," she said. "We were not the ones who blocked. It was taken off the table by Russia."

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/russia-circulates-new-un-resolution-ukraine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/17/russia-un-resolution-ceasefire-talks-ukraine
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-to-rally-u-n-support-behind-resolution-on-ukraine/

See the outrageous spin? Compare it to the truthful Russian media:
Meanwhile, the draft resolution condemning the assault on the Russian embassy was blocked by the Lithuanian delegation, Churkin revealed.

http://rt.com/news/166376-churkin-unsc-resolution-ukraine/

Clear evidence of the US/UK/France using the power of veto in a despicable manner! Boo! Hiss!

I wasn't aware that Lithuania was a shared province of the US, the UK and France. This is not a resolution, it's a press release. All 15 countries on the Security Council have to sign off on press releases. The Lithuanian objections are reasonable: condemn the downing of the Ukrainian transport and we'll condemn the attack on the embassy.

You share the view of the rabidly Russophobic Russian UN ambassador? That makes me sad...

And no, Lithuania is not a shared province of the US, the UK and France, it's a part of Russia currently occupied by CIA, FBI and NATO forces. That should be obvious!

(More obvious than sarcasm...)

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Rabopari
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Postby Rabopari » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:08 pm

in ten years, if ukraine joins the EU and the euro i can guarentee you they'll come back crying to daddy russia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:00 pm

Farnhamia wrote:The Lithuanian objections are reasonable: condemn the downing of the Ukrainian transport and we'll condemn the attack on the embassy.


An attack on a military transport plane carrying soldiers into combat during the Civil War is equivalent to an attack on an embassy? :blink:
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:12 pm

Alien Space Bats wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:I don't know much about the natural has industry, but that sounds like a lot of gas for very little money.

Natural gas runs just over $8 per 1,000 cubic feet (i.e., around $280 per 1,000 cubic meters) on the U.S. market.


What about the transport costs? In Eurasia, the market price ranges from $385-$400 per 1,000 cubic meters. The contract price that Yanukovich had was $485 per 1,000 cubic meters. After conditional discounts, the price was dropped to $268.5. Since Ukraine no longer met the conditions after February 22nd, the conditional discounts were withdrawn. The lowest market price that a country with Ukraine's credit rating can get is $385, which is what Russia's offering. Does anyone here actually think that Russia will sell to Poroshenko's government below market price? In Capitalism, you do not have to sell your goods below market price. Ukraine - you wanted EU integration, welcome to Capitalism, it's the first step.
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:16 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Alien Space Bats wrote:Natural gas runs just over $8 per 1,000 cubic feet (i.e., around $280 per 1,000 cubic meters) on the U.S. market.


What about the transport costs? In Eurasia, the market price ranges from $385-$400 per 1,000 cubic meters. The contract price that Yanukovich had was $485 per 1,000 cubic meters. After conditional discounts, the price was dropped to $268.5. Since Ukraine no longer met the conditions after February 22nd, the conditional discounts were withdrawn. The lowest market price that a country with Ukraine's credit rating can get is $385, which is what Russia's offering. Does anyone here actually think that Russia will sell to Poroshenko's government below market price? In Capitalism, you do not have to sell your goods below market price. Ukraine - you wanted EU integration, welcome to Capitalism, it's the first step.

I think Ukraine understands what capitalism is. I'm sure Poroshenko will appreciate your lesson, though. :roll:
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:35 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
What about the transport costs? In Eurasia, the market price ranges from $385-$400 per 1,000 cubic meters. The contract price that Yanukovich had was $485 per 1,000 cubic meters. After conditional discounts, the price was dropped to $268.5. Since Ukraine no longer met the conditions after February 22nd, the conditional discounts were withdrawn. The lowest market price that a country with Ukraine's credit rating can get is $385, which is what Russia's offering. Does anyone here actually think that Russia will sell to Poroshenko's government below market price? In Capitalism, you do not have to sell your goods below market price. Ukraine - you wanted EU integration, welcome to Capitalism, it's the first step.

I think Ukraine understands what capitalism is. I'm sure Poroshenko will appreciate your lesson, though. :roll:


If he stays in power for the rest of his term, it'll be impressive. Austerity hasn't really hit Western Ukraine yet, but that's inevitable. When Western Ukraine's economy ends up being even more in the shitter than it already is, well, it'll be interesting if Poroshenko can ride out the wave of hatred. Simply passing that off on Putin won't work, since Putin's in Russia. Not much they can do there. However Poroshenko can be targeted by these groups and I highly doubt that he'll get the help he needs to counter them. Maybe Timoshenko wasn't kidding about that Third Maidan...
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OMGeverynameistaken
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Postby OMGeverynameistaken » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:38 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The Lithuanian objections are reasonable: condemn the downing of the Ukrainian transport and we'll condemn the attack on the embassy.


An attack on a military transport plane carrying soldiers into combat during the Civil War is equivalent to an attack on an embassy? :blink:

I want to make a snarky comment illustrating how farcical this whole situation is, nicely encompassing the failings of Russia while pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'west,' but after a while it just starts to feel hollow.

Ukraine needs to sort its shit out and tell both sides to fuck off.
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:42 pm

OMGeverynameistaken wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
An attack on a military transport plane carrying soldiers into combat during the Civil War is equivalent to an attack on an embassy? :blink:

I want to make a snarky comment illustrating how farcical this whole situation is, nicely encompassing the failings of Russia while pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'west,' but after a while it just starts to feel hollow.

Ukraine needs to sort its shit out and tell both sides to fuck off.


Ukraine can't. No functioning economy, no control over local idiots and Oligarch Feudal Battalions are in command of certain areas. Staging Maidan when it could've led to these conditions was idiotic on the part of Kiev. When austerity hits Western Ukraine the Maidaners will be enjoying the fruits of their labor.
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:51 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The Lithuanian objections are reasonable: condemn the downing of the Ukrainian transport and we'll condemn the attack on the embassy.


An attack on a military transport plane carrying soldiers into combat during the Civil War is equivalent to an attack on an embassy? :blink:

The Civil War was an actual, declared war. Which declared war is this and who declared it?
Last edited by Geilinor on Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:04 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
An attack on a military transport plane carrying soldiers into combat during the Civil War is equivalent to an attack on an embassy? :blink:

The Civil War was an actual, declared war. Which declared war is this and who declared it?


You don't need an actual declaration to have an actual war. You can have a de facto declaration. As for the de facto declaration, Kiev argues that said war was declared by the rebels, when they seized administrative buildings and refused to evacuate them and rebels argue that said war was declared by Kiev, when Kiev started their military assault against the rebels.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

Postby Alien Space Bats » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:52 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Alien Space Bats wrote:Natural gas runs just over $8 per 1,000 cubic feet (i.e., around $280 per 1,000 cubic meters) on the U.S. market.


What about the transport costs? In Eurasia, the market price ranges from $385-$400 per 1,000 cubic meters. The contract price that Yanukovich had was $485 per 1,000 cubic meters. After conditional discounts, the price was dropped to $268.5. Since Ukraine no longer met the conditions after February 22nd, the conditional discounts were withdrawn. The lowest market price that a country with Ukraine's credit rating can get is $385, which is what Russia's offering. Does anyone here actually think that Russia will sell to Poroshenko's government below market price? In Capitalism, you do not have to sell your goods below market price. Ukraine - you wanted EU integration, welcome to Capitalism, it's the first step.

My post was not intended to suggest that Russia is gouging the Ukraine; it was simply offered as a comparative price, albeit in a different market.

In the way of further comparison, pipeline delivery in the North American Market doesn't add more than $3-$5 per 1,000 cubic meters; I would assume that the Eurasian market is similar, given that pipeline technology is fairly global in nature. That said, gas markets are continental in scope, rather than global (like oil markets, by way of example); thus we can't make direct comparisons between gas markets on different continents, although we can VERY roughly say that the Eurasian price is generally in the right ball park for natural gas market prices worldwide.
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Postby Dalcaria » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:00 am

Jinwoy wrote:I think it might have something to do to protect the massive Russian minority in Ukraine, considering that the ones in other countries aren't really threatened by the rise of Ukrainian Slavic ultranationalism (evidenced by the interim government).


A lovely claim who's only substantiation is 3 fascist members of parliament (Russia has 238, called the "United Russia" party :lol2: ), and "violence" against Russians that probably was only committed as a form of counter-protest to Pro-Russians trying to annex off land that wasn't there's. Also, again, Greece has more Fascists in it than Ukraine, you cannot, in any way, justify this pathetic claim of the "rise" of Fascism in the Ukraine, or ultra-nationalism. I understand that the point they are making is Ukrainian "ultra-nationalism" poses some great threat to Russians in the Ukraine, but it simply is either A) a pretty vague and inaccurate claim, or B) it is the result of Russia's aggressiveness and imperialist policies towards Ukraine. From what I can tell of the past few years, Ukrainian ultra-nationalists were more focused on white-supremacy and Islamophobia, Russians were almost never a significant target. One other thing, it was Tartars claiming RUSSIAN ultra-nationalists were marking up the doors of their homes in Crimea (in other words, letting people know who the Tartar families were. Russian homes had been left untouched). If I was being totally honest though, I'd say it's Russian ultra-nationalism that is on the rise, and I've been seeing this trend for a few years now, not just due to this Ukraine issue.
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