[ARCHIVED DEBATE] A Civilized Debate on Religion

[Sun Wukong]

What a fatuous thing to say. Why is it when the subject turns to religion people feel the need to relentlessly point out that difference of opinion is possible, as though that were being argued?

On the atheistic side:
In response to the hell argument
On the theist side:
In response to the "theists are insane" argument

Yay! Let's all equivocate and strawman.

[New Zreuche]

Exactly.

It would be a bit difficult, considering how I harbour no beliefs.

I know you're going to play some word games, but how do you what no beliefs?

No religious beliefs I think he means

[Coexisting Republics]

Yeah well, Matthew Mark Luke and John are individual books. The quar'an or however you spell it also lists it I think.

Still, aside from said book(s), any proof he did such things?

There are four logical possibilities:
1: Jesus was not a historical figure, and was invented by the apostles.
2: Jesus was a historical figure, but the apostles lied about his Godhood.
3: Jesus was a historical figure, and the apostles believed he was God, but they were insane.
4: Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.
We pick off the options 1 by 1:
1: Jesus was clearly a historical figure, as he is referenced many times in contemporary documents. (The amount of non-Christian documents from the time mentioning Jesus exceeds the amount of documents from the time mentioning the Roman emperor during Jesus' lifetime. Do you doubt Tiberius' existence?)
2: If the apostles lied about his Godhood, why on earth would they go to death for their statements? The Romans, though not believing in the Jewish God, would have let them go had they recanted, as they merely viewed the Jews as a political problem. The Pharisees back at home would not have been so merciful, but I believe the apostles were executed in Rome, and so could have escaped the Sanhedrin for the few years until it was broken up by Rome. Therefore, the apostles believed Jesus was god.
3: If the apostles were insane, the problem of Jesus' body being missing is not solved. Roman records clearly show a man claiming to be the messiah being arrested and executed near Passover under Pilate, so Jesus was killed. Had Jesus' body still been present on Sunday, the Jews may have had qualms about digging it up, but the Romans, who also had stakes in the matter, would have had no problem parading the corpse around Jerusalem. None of the non-apostle figures close to Jesus (and there weren't many) would have stolen the body: they would have been too few to overpower the guards OR move the stone, and they wouldn't have tried in the first place, considering their feelings of hopelessness, and, in particular, Mary's despair. The public had turned against Jesus, and they also feared the Romans, so they didn't steal the body. Barring a conspiracy by the guards themselves, the only option left is the one most frequently pulled: that the apostles stole the body. Had they stolen the body, however, they would have been aware that Jesus hadn't risen from the dead, and so contradicts what we established earlier: that they believed Jesus was God. This only leaves one option:
Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.

[Conscentia]

Still, aside from said book(s), any proof he did such things?

There are four logical possibilities:
1: Jesus was not a historical figure, and was invented by the apostles.
2: Jesus was a historical figure, but the apostles lied about his Godhood.
3: Jesus was a historical figure, and the apostles believed he was God, but they were insane.
4: Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.
We pick off the options 1 by 1:
1: Jesus was clearly a historical figure, as he is referenced many times in contemporary documents. (The amount of non-Christian documents from the time mentioning Jesus exceeds the amount of documents from the time mentioning the Roman emperor during Jesus' lifetime. Do you doubt Tiberius' existence?)
2: If the apostles lied about his Godhood, why on earth would they go to death for their statements? The Romans, though not believing in the Jewish God, would have let them go had they recanted, as they merely viewed the Jews as a political problem. The Pharisees back at home would not have been so merciful, but I believe the apostles were executed in Rome, and so could have escaped the Sanhedrin for the few years until it was broken up by Rome. Therefore, the apostles believed Jesus was god.
3: If the apostles were insane, the problem of Jesus' body being missing is not solved. Roman records clearly show a man claiming to be the messiah being arrested and executed near Passover under Pilate, so Jesus was killed. Had Jesus' body still been present on Sunday, the Jews may have had qualms about digging it up, but the Romans, who also had stakes in the matter, would have had no problem parading the corpse around Jerusalem. None of the non-apostle figures close to Jesus (and there weren't many) would have stolen the body: they would have been too few to overpower the guards OR move the stone, and they wouldn't have tried in the first place, considering their feelings of hopelessness, and, in particular, Mary's despair. The public had turned against Jesus, and they also feared the Romans, so they didn't steal the body. Barring a conspiracy by the guards themselves, the only option left is the one most frequently pulled: that the apostles stole the body. Had they stolen the body, however, they would have been aware that Jesus hadn't risen from the dead, and so contradicts what we established earlier: that they believed Jesus was God. This only leaves one option:
Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.

What nonsense.
Have you considered that the entire story about the tomb being opened might be a lie or an unsubstantiated myth? Why would the Romans put executed criminals in a fancy tomb closed with a big stone? They most likely chucked all the bodies in a ditch.
Pilate would have most likely ensured that Jesus did not receive an honourable tomb burial. It is in Pilate's best interest to make certain that Jesus would have been buried in obscurity.

People have also died for Islam, and Buddhism, are you going to convert then?

Jesus is obviously not the Messiah.

[Mavorpen]

1: Jesus was clearly a historical figure, as he is referenced many times in contemporary documents. (The amount of non-Christian documents from the time mentioning Jesus exceeds the amount of documents from the time mentioning the Roman emperor during Jesus' lifetime. Do you doubt Tiberius' existence?)

Oh good, no sources. Why in the world would we doubt Tiberius' existence? We have extensive records from Roman historians including the Annals. It would help your point to give evidence on par with those of Tiberius existing.

2: If the apostles lied about his Godhood, why on earth would they go to death for their statements?

This is a silly straw man. No one's saying they lied. They could have actually believed what they were saying. This doesn't make it true, and it's your duty to actually provide evidence it is true.

3: If the apostles were insane, the problem of Jesus' body being missing is not solved.

There is no "problem" in the first place.

Roman records clearly show a man claiming to be the messiah being arrested and executed near Passover under Pilate, so Jesus was killed.

Uh, no. There were literally hundreds of people claiming to be messiahs including Simon of Peraea and Anthronges. You need to actually prove this individual was actually Jesus.

This only leaves one option:
Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.

No, that's only if you assume it was Jesus or that the story is true in the first place. Since you haven't given us any reason to believe that though...

[Shaggai]

As a follower of Buddhadharma, the existence (or non-existence) of a creator is irrelevant to my decision-making.

Sun Wukong is over there. Go up behind him and say "Boo!"

[New Colorado Republic]

And not everyone has to believe in what you believe.

What a fatuous thing to say. Why is it when the subject turns to religion people feel the need to relentlessly point out that difference of opinion is possible, as though that were being argued?

Religious people, and you should have known this, have a tendency to push their beliefs on everyone. More specifically, Christians, like to push their beliefs.

[Sun Wukong]

As a follower of Buddhadharma, the existence (or non-existence) of a creator is irrelevant to my decision-making.

Sun Wukong is over there. Go up behind him and say "Boo!"

Buddhism is my Kryptonite.

[Sun Wukong]

What a fatuous thing to say. Why is it when the subject turns to religion people feel the need to relentlessly point out that difference of opinion is possible, as though that were being argued?

Religious people, and you should have known this, have a tendency to push their beliefs on everyone. More specifically, Christians, like to push their beliefs.

It was rhetorical, and I think you seem to have misunderstood the situation anyway.

[New Zreuche]

Still, aside from said book(s), any proof he did such things?

There are four logical possibilities:
1: Jesus was not a historical figure, and was invented by the apostles.
2: Jesus was a historical figure, but the apostles lied about his Godhood.
3: Jesus was a historical figure, and the apostles believed he was God, but they were insane.
4: Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.
We pick off the options 1 by 1:
1: Jesus was clearly a historical figure, as he is referenced many times in contemporary documents. (The amount of non-Christian documents from the time mentioning Jesus exceeds the amount of documents from the time mentioning the Roman emperor during Jesus' lifetime. Do you doubt Tiberius' existence?)
2: If the apostles lied about his Godhood, why on earth would they go to death for their statements? The Romans, though not believing in the Jewish God, would have let them go had they recanted, as they merely viewed the Jews as a political problem. The Pharisees back at home would not have been so merciful, but I believe the apostles were executed in Rome, and so could have escaped the Sanhedrin for the few years until it was broken up by Rome. Therefore, the apostles believed Jesus was god.
3: If the apostles were insane, the problem of Jesus' body being missing is not solved. Roman records clearly show a man claiming to be the messiah being arrested and executed near Passover under Pilate, so Jesus was killed. Had Jesus' body still been present on Sunday, the Jews may have had qualms about digging it up, but the Romans, who also had stakes in the matter, would have had no problem parading the corpse around Jerusalem. None of the non-apostle figures close to Jesus (and there weren't many) would have stolen the body: they would have been too few to overpower the guards OR move the stone, and they wouldn't have tried in the first place, considering their feelings of hopelessness, and, in particular, Mary's despair. The public had turned against Jesus, and they also feared the Romans, so they didn't steal the body. Barring a conspiracy by the guards themselves, the only option left is the one most frequently pulled: that the apostles stole the body. Had they stolen the body, however, they would have been aware that Jesus hadn't risen from the dead, and so contradicts what we established earlier: that they believed Jesus was God. This only leaves one option:
Jesus really was God, and the apostles were telling the truth.

Your logic is somewhat invalid, you make the assumption that there are only 4.

One other possible one is that the apostles believed he was the son of god, and so would "Lie" to the grave and probably exaggerate Jesus' exploits. You also make assumptions that the apostles had no way to retrieve the body, or whether Jesus was ever put into a tomb.

Therefore, your argument is Invalid

Batcow

[European Socialist Republic]

God is perfect, therefore he exists otherwise he wouldn't be perfect.

Checkmate atheists!

[Nazi Flower Power]

I wish all soda was coca-cola. Coke is awesome. Especially the kind they make for Passover with the yellow caps. I guess they do that for the Christians...

Personally, I would secretly write an anathema on all soda into the canons of the Ecumenical Councils, and purge it from the lives of the devout.

But I'm a killjoy that way.


Sort of related, though... here in the Gulf, Vimto is - weirdly - the Ramadan iftar [daily fast-breaking feast] drink of choice. It's consumed in prodigious quantities during Ramadan.

I've never had Vimto, but it sounds really unappetizing...

[Nazi Flower Power]

I wish all soda was coca-cola. Coke is awesome. Especially the kind they make for Passover with the yellow caps. I guess they do that for the Christians...

Cherry Coke master race.

No! Only pure Coke! None of these inferior mixed-flavor abominations!

[Reformed Revolutionary China]

God is perfect, therefore he exists otherwise he wouldn't be perfect.

Checkmate atheists!

If God was perfect, I would have seen a man-bear-pig floating about somewhere by now.

[Monkeykind]

God is perfect, therefore he exists otherwise he wouldn't be perfect.

Checkmate atheists!

If God was perfect, I would have seen a man-bear-pig floating about somewhere by now.

http://www.thinkgene.com/wp-content/upl ... earpig.jpg

http://www.thinkgene.com/scientists-suc ... g-chimera/
There it is.

[Nazi Flower Power]

God is perfect, therefore he exists otherwise he wouldn't be perfect.

Checkmate atheists!

If God was perfect, everything he made would be perfect too. Including the Nazi Party. Therefore the Nazi Party is perfect and you should join.

[Monkeykind]

God is perfect, therefore he exists otherwise he wouldn't be perfect.

Checkmate atheists!

If God was perfect, everything he made would be perfect too. Including the Nazi Party. Therefore the Nazi Party is perfect and you should join.

Well, if they took over the whole world, then there would be no wars.

[Conscentia]

Cherry Coke master race.

No! Only pure Coke! None of these inferior mixed-flavor abominations!

No! The distilled dihydrogen monoxide master race!

[Conscentia]

If God was perfect, I would have seen a man-bear-pig floating about somewhere by now.

http://www.thinkgene.com/wp-content/upl ... earpig.jpg
http://www.thinkgene.com/scientists-suc ... g-chimera/
There it is.

Not floating, he said floating.

[Monkeykind]

http://www.thinkgene.com/wp-content/upl ... earpig.jpg
http://www.thinkgene.com/scientists-suc ... g-chimera/
There it is.

Not floating, he said floating.

Well, it's raised because it's on a platform, which is technically floating.

[Nazi Flower Power]

No! Only pure Coke! None of these inferior mixed-flavor abominations!

No! The distilled dihydrogen monoxide master race!

Your standards of purity are higher than mine?

Dammit! I suck at being a Nazi!

[European Socialist Republic]

God is perfect, therefore he exists otherwise he wouldn't be perfect.

Checkmate atheists!

If God was perfect, everything he made would be perfect too. Including the Nazi Party. Therefore the Nazi Party is perfect and you should join.

Source that God made the Nazi Party?

[Reformed Revolutionary China]

If God was perfect, I would have seen a man-bear-pig floating about somewhere by now.

http://www.thinkgene.com/wp-content/upl ... earpig.jpg

http://www.thinkgene.com/scientists-suc ... g-chimera/
There it is.

Glorious. I nearly shed a tear.

Not floating, he said floating.

Thank you.

[Nazi Flower Power]

If God was perfect, everything he made would be perfect too. Including the Nazi Party. Therefore the Nazi Party is perfect and you should join.

Source that God made the Nazi Party?

It's part of the world that God created.

[European Socialist Republic]

Source that God made the Nazi Party?

It's part of the world that God created.

Or... it was created by Satan to poison God's creation!