[ARCHIVED DEBATE] A Civilized Debate on Religion

[Hakio]

You're inclined to think that way, fine. Just don't go around insulting Christians.

I don't, if they get offended by me expressing my beliefs that's fine. In fact it supports the fact that god is just a figment of their imagination. Several characteristics of aggression towards atheism by religious people often include feelings often associated with personal or romantic rejection. They even show this in the fact that they often characterize atheists as "those who reject God. So why should they feel rejected on the behalf of God? It's because god is them. This is why they think god so often agrees with their opinions and knows so much about them, it's because god is their ego. Thus, when we reject their God we are also rejecting them and their ideas.

[Personal Freedom]

You're inclined to think that way, fine. Just don't go around insulting Christians.

I don't, if they get offended by me expressing my beliefs that's fine. In fact it supports the fact that god is just a figment of their imagination. Several characteristics of aggression towards atheism by religious people often include feelings often associated with personal or romantic rejection. They even show this in the fact that they often characterize atheists as "those who reject God. So why should they feel rejected on the behalf of God? It's because god is them. This is why they think god so often agrees with their opinions and knows so much about them, it's because god is their ego. Thus, when we reject their God we are also rejecting them and their ideas.

If God is a figment of the Ego then aNTI-gOD is the atheist's ego. God exists in the ego and thus there is a God.

[Hakio]

I don't, if they get offended by me expressing my beliefs that's fine. In fact it supports the fact that god is just a figment of their imagination. Several characteristics of aggression towards atheism by religious people often include feelings often associated with personal or romantic rejection. They even show this in the fact that they often characterize atheists as "those who reject God. So why should they feel rejected on the behalf of God? It's because god is them. This is why they think god so often agrees with their opinions and knows so much about them, it's because god is their ego. Thus, when we reject their God we are also rejecting them and their ideas.

If God is a figment of the Ego then aNTI-gOD is the atheist's ego. God exists in the ego and thus there is a God.

No an anti-God would be a satanists ego. We do not believe in god thus we do not have to apply our ego to any divine being or divine cause.

[Personal Freedom]

If God is a figment of the Ego then aNTI-gOD is the atheist's ego. God exists in the ego and thus there is a God.

No an anti-God would be a satanists ego. We do not believe in god thus we do not have to apply our ego to any divine being.

So then God only exists for some people, those that want God.

[Hakio]

Furthermore if god is subjective to every single person than there is no objective existential god because everyone's interpretation of a god is entirely related to their character.

[ThePeacekeepers]

I understand what you are saying, but I still believe that even for the small portion of the people who could read it at the time one of the apostles would have written one in Aramaic or I think more preferably Hebrew to possibly preserve the original names of Yahweh and Yahshua in the texts. I also believe that it would be possible that if one was written in Hebrew they would've used those names and the Pharisees would have sought to destroy them once they learned of their existence. This is all speculation though and until one turns up we will never know but I pray that one will so that my beliefs can be affirmed and those who do not believe may yet believe.

And I get that you say it is all speculation, because none of it is based off of historical facts. The pharisees didn't have very much to do with Christianity, it wasn't a global issue to them.

Regardless the original New Testament documents were written in Greek, do you believe all those people didn't attain salvation because they said Iesus and not Yeshua? I would think not, Paul on many occasions preached in Greek did he not?

The Pharisees did persecute and kill many of the people who practiced Christianity Paul being one of the people to send many Christians to their deaths before he devoted his life to serving God.
True Paul did preach in Greek on numerous occasions but he could still have used the Original name, nothing was stopping him. When we speak in different languages today names usually remain the same when we are talking about a person. If the name was important as the New Testament says it is, he would have preserved the name and taught with it only.
I do not know if they achieved salvation but if they had heard the truth and did not follow it then they are indeed dammed. If they knew the true name and did not use it and instead used another they would be dammed. It gave only one name by which to be saved and if you have heard the truth and did not follow it you are dammed, but if you have not heard the truth then I do not know if you can be accountable, I believe so but I don’t know for sure. I will have to look into that.

[ThePeacekeepers]

He was Yahweh Manifest in the flesh. He fulfilled all the things the prophets said would be done. By the authority of his father Yahweh, who sent him to die for our sins.

Only God has that right, and Yeshua must prove himself to be God.
It's a shame God said that he was not a human.

I did not get that meaning from what I read. From my understanding of Deuteronomy 29 and thirty, he was telling them of the covenant between them and of the curse that would befall those that fell away from him. Could you show me in Deuteronomy 30 where it says that

It states in Dueteronomy 30 that the Law is forever standing, God calls heaven an earth as witnesses to this covenant between God and the nation of Israel.

" the idea that The Messiah requires belief in him at all negates much of the Hebrew Scriptures messianic detail. Of which it is stated that the entire world will be immediately aware of the Messiah, just as they will be of God, and just as they will be of forgetting war."?

This is not in Deuteronomy 30 but a combination of Messianic prophecies listed throughout the Jewish scriptures.
Nowhere in the Jewish scriptures does it say 'believing' in the Messiah is the path to salvation.
Probably because the Messiah will not require your belief, just as the world will be filled with the universal knowledge of God, and the universal lack of war, so too will the Messiah be known.

Yahshua did prove himself, he fulfilled the law by dying on the cross and spiritually going up and splashing his blood on the altar for man's sins Hebrews 9. Yahweh was manifest in the flesh as Yahshua to die for our sins. Yahshua is Yahweh's only begotten son that he sent to die for our sins.
He called heaven and earth to bear witness to this day and to the covenant between them. Forever has an end, and when the Law was fulfilled in Yahshua the people of this world had their way to salvation through Yahshua who died for our sins so that we could be saved. The Jews went against the Covenant at almost every turn worshipping false gods and turning away from Yahweh so he sent his son to do what no man could and lived a life without sin and fulfilled the law and died for all man's sins so they could be saved through him.
Show me these prophecies and I will give you an answer.

[ThePeacekeepers]

Yes there is in fact there is God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Yes I'm a Christian and have no denomination. F*ck denominations I'm a servant of Christ not the church most of us Christians are hipocrits anyway but that doesn't mean we goin to hell. Buddy I'm gonna be with my creator are you?

Well if there is a Creator why can't he/she/it show me evidence of its existence so I would have a reason to believe in it? Also why would a God create people who don't believe in it and then punish them for the fact that they don't believe in him? Also if I had to have an Afterlife I would prefer to be reincarnated as a Redwood Tree because they are resilient and they don't have to do anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrmY--cPWUA This a debate between an atheist and a Muslim, the Muslim shows using logic how there must be a God or all powerful being. Yahweh is a Jealous God, he punishes those who turn away from him and followed after false gods instead. He has showed himself to be real to people on numerous occasions in the bible and many of the people who heard his word and knew his power still turned away from him and did things which were against what Yahweh commanded. He created man and then man disobeyed him. Adam was the first man and he did indeed believe in Yahweh as did eve but they sinned and were punished for disobeying him. So since the beginning of man's existence Yahweh has shown himself to be real. Yahweh gave us life we would not exist if he did not create us, do we not owe him everything? Everything we do from the second we are conceived to the second we die would not have been possible if he had not given us life. He has sent prophets to spread his word and when the people did not follow them he sent his only begotten son to fulfill the law and to die for our sins. We have the power today to go out and live our lives according to what the bible says so that we can be saved but people just choose not to because they the love the world and the pleasures within it, but those who are of the world cannot be of God also 1 John 2:14-17 20-25, Romans 8, 1 john 14,

[ThePeacekeepers]

Yes there is in fact there is God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Yes I'm a Christian and have no denomination. F*ck denominations I'm a servant of Christ not the church most of us Christians are hipocrits anyway but that doesn't mean we goin to hell. Buddy I'm gonna be with my creator are you?

John 5:28, Revelation 20:13-14, Acts 2:27-31, Luke 16:22-31, Peter 3:4 Fathers are sleeping, Psalms 16:10, 1 Corinthians 15:13-18, hell is the grave and all those who have died are sleeping. When you die you go to hell and your soul sleeps. God is one being he is Yahweh the father, Yahshua the son, and the Holy spirit.

[ThePeacekeepers]

The oldest manuscripts we have today were written in Greek, but given the fact that most of the apostles were Hebrew there must have been a text written in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is possible that since the text may have had the name Yahweh or Yahshua in it that the Jews, pharisees and sadducees, had the text sought out or destroyed because they contained the name Yah which they believe was too holy to be spoken and I'm guessing that probably went the same for writings too. I am not saying that is what happened, but I am saying that it would be a strange thing that a bunch of Hebrew people would choose to write the book in Greek and not in their native language, even just one copy for the churches who were mostly Hebrew speaking peoples.

Or, you know what's actually more in line with the Scripture, when preaching to the gentiles it's better to do it in their native language.
So far my friend your claims don't seem to hold to actual scrutiny. When Paul spoke about Salvation to the Galatians you think he did it in Hebrew? Do you think he cared how they called Jesus? No, I think not.

The philo-semetism that you exhibit seems almost trivial if not counter-intuitive to the actual point, and I don't mean that derisively.

And when preaching to Hebrews would you not preach to them in their native language as well?
Paul would have spoken the true name when speaking to the Hebrews and as I believe he would have to all the other churches and peoples as well. It would have been better to teach them the name so that they could be saved and be able to preach the true name of the son of Yahweh(Yahshua) to the world. As I have said there is only one name by which you can be saved and that name is Yahshua.

[ThePeacekeepers]

I will continue to look for what you call an academic source but I ask you to read and consider with an open mind what I have provided you. I have a strong feeling that you are not trying to learn from this debate but instead coming in with a closed mind and leaving with one also.

Having an open mind does NOT mean "taking every little piece of nonsense with a face value." I'm open minded, but only to evidence that is from legitimate sources.

I do not mean for you to accept everything I am saying just because I am saying it, I would not accept anything that did not make sense and I would make anyone else to accept it either. I search in many places to find truth because knowing that what I am believing in is true is important to me, academic sites only have so much knowledge other sites may be saying things that are true also, sites that seem extreme or radical but if they have truth to them I would happily take the time to read through what they have to say that I might find the truth. To gain knowledge you cannot look in just one place, you must search for it, I would happily dig through a pile of garbage to find a little bit of truth. I ask that you not limit yourself and read through what I have given you with an open mind. I am still searching for your academic source.

[ThePeacekeepers]

He was Yahweh Manifest in the flesh. He fulfilled all the things the prophets said would be done.

Uh...no. Isaiah 2:4 says calls bullshit.

Isaiah 2 is speaking of the end of days. I pray those prophesies will come to pass shortly. When I said he fulfilled all the things the prophet's had said I meant in reference to his life, death, and resurrection, but I apologize for not making it clear. I Will be sure to make my future comments as clear as possible to leave out any room for misinterpretation or confusion.

[Mavorpen]

I do not mean for you to accept everything I am saying just because I am saying it, I would not accept anything that did not make sense and I would make anyone else to accept it either.

Good so then so you have that academic source or not?

[Mavorpen]

Uh...no. Isaiah 2:4 says calls bullshit.

Isaiah 2 is speaking of the end of days.

No it isn't. That's an excuse formulated by Christians aware that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, so they decided to claim that he would fulfill them at his Second Coming.

[The USOT]

I don't, if they get offended by me expressing my beliefs that's fine. In fact it supports the fact that god is just a figment of their imagination. Several characteristics of aggression towards atheism by religious people often include feelings often associated with personal or romantic rejection. They even show this in the fact that they often characterize atheists as "those who reject God. So why should they feel rejected on the behalf of God? It's because god is them. This is why they think god so often agrees with their opinions and knows so much about them, it's because god is their ego. Thus, when we reject their God we are also rejecting them and their ideas.

If God is a figment of the Ego then aNTI-gOD is the atheist's ego. God exists in the ego and thus there is a God.

...What?
If god is a figment of the ego, he is a fictional character. We don't tend to apply existence to things which are fictional, otherwise the term existence is useless because if something can be thought of, it would exist.

[The USOT]

Well if there is a Creator why can't he/she/it show me evidence of its existence so I would have a reason to believe in it? Also why would a God create people who don't believe in it and then punish them for the fact that they don't believe in him? Also if I had to have an Afterlife I would prefer to be reincarnated as a Redwood Tree because they are resilient and they don't have to do anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrmY--cPWUA This a debate between an atheist and a Muslim, the Muslim shows using logic how there must be a God or all powerful being.

I wouldn't really cite Hamza as he is a very intellectually dishonest person. There is a famous example of him being with another muslim talking to PZ Meyers talking about what the Qoran says. He followed a position with a fellow muslim there untill PZ Meyers showed that the claim was incorrect (if memory serves me correctly it was regarding the production of blood? I can find the video if you wish) and then suddenly switching stances to say that the verse actually meant what PZ Meyers had explained to be actually the case.

Regardless, its also a poor video. He just claimed that you can't scientifically find your great great great great grandmother just after the first minute. Ignoring that absurdity, he goes on to argue that logical thinking is seperate from science, something which completely removes him from the history of science or any understanding of science.

So carrying on, lets hear his first argument.
He uses the cosmological argument, and even represents it poorly. He doesn't try to acknowledge anything other than a creator, saying "so then what created the universe?" which is begging the question. It assumes creator before a creator is even known, which is the general failure of the cosmological argument.
Im not saying not to post scholarly work, or that you should not post reasoned arguments on here (indeed, please do; it is very refreshing to see somebody post arguments at all) but I reccomend for the sake of your own argument to stay away from him. At the most he is charismatic, he is devoid of worthwhile content.

[ThePeacekeepers]

Isaiah 2 is speaking of the end of days.

No it isn't. That's an excuse formulated by Christians aware that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, so they decided to claim that he would fulfill them at his Second Coming.

All prophecies spoken of by the prophets must be fulfilled and Yahshua is indeed our savior. When Yahshua spiritually stands on the mount of olives and it clefts in the mist the whole world will know that he is God Zech 14:4. First all nations must be Gathered against Jerusalem and it must be taken and the people killed or taken into captivity, expect for a residue of the people Zech 14:2. This I pray happens soon. Yahshua will fulfill all the prophesies, as it was foretold he would do. The prophets did not say it would happen all at once. How were they to know the will of Yahweh? They knew only what Yahweh had given them to know, and that is what they preached. Yahshua himself said these things would come to pass, he spoke of the beginning of sorrows that we might have some warning of the end of days, but no man knows the day of his return. Matt 24, Mark 13, and luke 2.

[Hindenburgia]

Having an open mind does NOT mean "taking every little piece of nonsense with a face value." I'm open minded, but only to evidence that is from legitimate sources.

I do not mean for you to accept everything I am saying just because I am saying it, I would not accept anything that did not make sense and I would make anyone else to accept it either. I search in many places to find truth because knowing that what I am believing in is true is important to me, academic sites only have so much knowledge other sites may be saying things that are true also, sites that seem extreme or radical but if they have truth to them I would happily take the time to read through what they have to say that I might find the truth. To gain knowledge you cannot look in just one place, you must search for it, I would happily dig through a pile of garbage to find a little bit of truth. I ask that you not limit yourself and read through what I have given you with an open mind. I am still searching for your academic source.

But in digging through that pile, how do you know what is true and what is garbage?

[Mavorpen]

No it isn't. That's an excuse formulated by Christians aware that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, so they decided to claim that he would fulfill them at his Second Coming.

All prophecies spoken of by the prophets must be fulfilled and Yahshua is indeed our savior. When Yahshua spiritually stands on the mount of olives and it clefts in the mist the whole world will know that he is God Zech 14:4. First all nations must be Gathered against Jerusalem and it must be taken and the people killed or taken into captivity, expect for a residue of the people Zech 14:2. This I pray happens soon. Yahshua will fulfill all the prophesies, as it was foretold he would do. The prophets did not say it would happen all at once. How were they to know the will of Yahweh? They knew only what Yahweh had given them to know, and that is what they preached. Yahshua himself said these things would come to pass, he spoke of the beginning of sorrows that we might have some warning of the end of days, but no man knows the day of his return. Matt 24, Mark 13, and luke 2.

So you ADMIT he hasn't fulfilled them and thus isn't the messiah.

Thanks for playing.

[Menassa]

Only God has that right, and Yeshua must prove himself to be God.
It's a shame God said that he was not a human.

It states in Dueteronomy 30 that the Law is forever standing, God calls heaven an earth as witnesses to this covenant between God and the nation of Israel.


This is not in Deuteronomy 30 but a combination of Messianic prophecies listed throughout the Jewish scriptures.
Nowhere in the Jewish scriptures does it say 'believing' in the Messiah is the path to salvation.
Probably because the Messiah will not require your belief, just as the world will be filled with the universal knowledge of God, and the universal lack of war, so too will the Messiah be known.

Yahshua did prove himself, he fulfilled the law by dying on the cross and spiritually going up and splashing his blood on the altar for man's sins Hebrews 9. Yahweh was manifest in the flesh as Yahshua to die for our sins. Yahshua is Yahweh's only begotten son that he sent to die for our sins.

God never once stated that this was going to occur, he never once told the Children of Israel that this would come to 'fulfill the Law' and regardless of doctrine and dogma think about how that would even make any sense.

"Here is this Law Israel you must keep it and emulate God."
"But if God dies on a cross it is no longer valid?"

That doesn't seem very logical.

He called heaven and earth to bear witness to this day and to the covenant between them. Forever has an end, and when the Law was fulfilled in Yahshua the people of this world had their way to salvation through Yahshua who died for our sins so that we could be saved.

That's not true, 'forever has an end' it does not it means forever that is ever.

The Jews went against the Covenant at almost every turn worshipping false gods and turning away from Yahweh so he sent his son to do what no man could and lived a life without sin and fulfilled the law and died for all man's sins so they could be saved through him.

And? That doesn't change the nature of the Covenant if people break a Law that doesn't make the Law non-existent.

Show me these prophecies and I will give you an answer.

I believe it was you who said 'you did not come here to learn anything' or maybe I am confused but your statement 'give me an answer' implies that you can twist anything you see into an answer, a clearly biased opinion.

Uh...no. Isaiah 2:4 says calls bullshit.

Isaiah 2 is speaking of the end of days. I pray those prophesies will come to pass shortly. When I said he fulfilled all the things the prophet's had said I meant in reference to his life, death, and resurrection, but I apologize for not making it clear. I Will be sure to make my future comments as clear as possible to leave out any room for misinterpretation or confusion.

The actual description of the Messianic age in Isaiah 2 perhaps lies directly in contrast with revelations, but that's not important.
What is important is the lack of occurrence of Isaiah 2 translating into the lack of The Messiah being present on earth.

Or, you know what's actually more in line with the Scripture, when preaching to the gentiles it's better to do it in their native language.
So far my friend your claims don't seem to hold to actual scrutiny. When Paul spoke about Salvation to the Galatians you think he did it in Hebrew? Do you think he cared how they called Jesus? No, I think not.

The philo-semetism that you exhibit seems almost trivial if not counter-intuitive to the actual point, and I don't mean that derisively.

And when preaching to Hebrews would you not preach to them in their native language as well?
Paul would have spoken the true name when speaking to the Hebrews and as I believe he would have to all the other churches and peoples as well. It would have been better to teach them the name so that they could be saved and be able to preach the true name of the son of Yahweh(Yahshua) to the world. As I have said there is only one name by which you can be saved and that name is Yahshua.

Again, when he spoke to the Hebrews, he spoke in Hebrew.
That DOES NOT mean that when he spoke to the Greeks he did not speak in Greek, in fact, he most probably did speak in Greek and say the name 'Iesus' to the Galatians among others... cannot it be said that they are not saved? That is absurd.

The Pharisees did persecute and kill many of the people who practiced Christianity

That's a lie, the Pharisees really didn't persecute anyone. Check your history.

Paul being one of the people to send many Christians to their deaths before he devoted his life to serving God.

Paul, despite his claims to the contrary was most probably not a Pharisee.

True Paul did preach in Greek on numerous occasions but he could still have used the Original name, nothing was stopping him.

Besides for the inability of his congregants to understand his meaning because it was in a different language.

When we speak in different languages today names usually remain the same when we are talking about a person.

Exactly why that applies to Jesus, and Moses, and Joshua, and God.

If the name was important as the New Testament says it is, he would have preserved the name and taught with it only.

Where is your proof of this claim?

I do not know if they achieved salvation but if they had heard the truth and did not follow it then they are indeed dammed. If they knew the true name and did not use it and instead used another they would be dammed. It gave only one name by which to be saved and if you have heard the truth and did not follow it you are dammed, but if you have not heard the truth then I do not know if you can be accountable, I believe so but I don’t know for sure. I will have to look into that.

I find it ridiculous to believe that a theological work written originally Greek and distributed to many Greeks has basis to say 'if you don't say the Hebrew name you are dammed' that's utterly absurd and seems to be ground more in your personal preference for philo-semitism than actual theology.

[ThePeacekeepers]

All prophecies spoken of by the prophets must be fulfilled and Yahshua is indeed our savior. When Yahshua spiritually stands on the mount of olives and it clefts in the mist the whole world will know that he is God Zech 14:4. First all nations must be Gathered against Jerusalem and it must be taken and the people killed or taken into captivity, expect for a residue of the people Zech 14:2. This I pray happens soon. Yahshua will fulfill all the prophesies, as it was foretold he would do. The prophets did not say it would happen all at once. How were they to know the will of Yahweh? They knew only what Yahweh had given them to know, and that is what they preached. Yahshua himself said these things would come to pass, he spoke of the beginning of sorrows that we might have some warning of the end of days, but no man knows the day of his return. Matt 24, Mark 13, and luke 2.

So you ADMIT he hasn't fulfilled them and thus isn't the messiah.

Thanks for playing.

The lord has said that which will come to pass in the last days, concerning the minds of man 2 Peter 3:2-7.

"2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The prophesies have not all been fulfilled by Yahshua yet but they will be fulfilled and all those who did not believe on him will not be saved. I pray the beginning of sorrows is at hand and the end of days be upon us shortly, that all who believe on Yahshua might be shown true in our beliefs and in our faith in Yahweh and his son Yahshua. Through Yahshua only is there salvation.

[Conscentia]

[...] How were they to know the will of Yahweh? [...]

Seriously? They're prophets. YHWH told them his will. That's the point.

[TomKirk]

[...] How were they to know the will of Yahweh? [...]

Seriously? They're prophets. YHWH told them his will. That's the point.

How do you know? Anybody can claim to be a prophet. Most who claim to be prophets are quite sincere in believing that what their inner voice tells them is from God.

[Conscentia]

Seriously? They're prophets. YHWH told them his will. That's the point.

How do you know? Anybody can claim to be a prophet. Most who claim to be prophets are quite sincere in believing that what their inner voice tells them is from God.

Deuteronomy 13 (The gist: Judaism doesn't like change - everything a prophet says must be in accordance with everything that already been said. Ie. No revisions like "the golden rule".)

[Mavorpen]

So you ADMIT he hasn't fulfilled them and thus isn't the messiah.

Thanks for playing.

The lord has said that which will come to pass in the last days, concerning the minds of man 2 Peter 3:2-7.

"2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The prophesies have not all been fulfilled by Yahshua yet but they will be fulfilled and all those who did not believe on him will not be saved. I pray the beginning of sorrows is at hand and the end of days be upon us shortly, that all who believe on Yahshua might be shown true in our beliefs and in our faith in Yahweh and his son Yahshua. Through Yahshua only is there salvation.

Right, so again, he isn't the messiah. Got it.