[ARCHIVED DEBATE] A Civilized Debate on Religion

[Avenio]

I am still building my case on the second point but I the first I will address both you and Avenio I believe that the name Yahshua becomes corrupted when it is altered just as Yahweh is corrupted when it is altered. I would not have the name of God changed from Yahweh to another name because that is his one and only name just as I would not have his son's name (Yahshua) changed because that is the one name given unto man by which they might achieve salvation.

If you place so much stock in using its original name, why do you keep calling it 'God'?

I ask you, would you change the name of God because it would be more convenient for you? Would you pray to this new name and suspect that he knew what you meant so it was okay? Would you then make idols unto his new name? This is how religions are corrupted. Changing something ever so slightly and saying that it is the same then doing so over and over again adding more and more until only a residue of the original faith is left. Yahweh is God and his name is holy just as Yahshua is the son of god and his name is holy.

One would hope that an omniscient, omnipotent being would be able to tell who you were praying to.

[Menassa]

It doesn't however, there is no truth to the claim you have made.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/YHWH
There's a non christian-mumbo jumbo site, look at etymology

Etymology
There are several views of what YHWH means and where the term originated. The most commonly accepted is that the term comes from "Y" (Hebrew yodh י) meaning "he," and the Semitic root "HWH," (Hebrew: he wa he היה ) which means either "to be" or "to create" depending on context, mode and inflection, making YHWH "He who is" or alternately "He who creates." In Exodus 3:14, God states, in response to the question "who are you, that should send me to the people of Israel?" - "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" "I am what I am."
Without vowels, both scholars of the Bible as well as linguists can only guess on the variation of the root HWH. In context, the word "YHWH" could also mean "He who builds," "He who lives" (the root "to be" has the variation of "to live" "to breathe" and "to build or bring into existence.")
A second theory is based on the linguistic evidence that the Semitic tri-root "HWH" indicates "things which fall," or a "storm." This argument suggests YHWH might be indicating at a Storm God. This highly compelling theory blends with the theory that YHWH was an Edomic Storm God who was adopted into the Canaanite culture.

Nothing remotely relating to your cliam.

[The Empire Of Dolmite]

Yes there is in fact there is God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Yes I'm a Christian and have no denomination. F*ck denominations I'm a servant of Christ not the church most of us Christians are hipocrits anyway but that doesn't mean we goin to hell. Buddy I'm gonna be with my creator are you?

[Benuty]

Also "Saint" Paul was a violent murderer before his conversion....

The Saint part is merely a church trapping as is Paul a more romanized name to make an impact. As for his past many of the biblical characters aren't perfect either. On the topic of the murdering he was the ringleader of a group sent out to clean up what they perceived as heresy with the blessing of the Sadducees and the Herodians. Whether he actually murdered or not is a different issue.

[Larban]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/YHWH
There's a non christian-mumbo jumbo site, look at etymology

Etymology
There are several views of what YHWH means and where the term originated. The most commonly accepted is that the term comes from "Y" (Hebrew yodh י) meaning "he," and the Semitic root "HWH," (Hebrew: he wa he היה ) which means either "to be" or "to create" depending on context, mode and inflection, making YHWH "He who is" or alternately "He who creates." In Exodus 3:14, God states, in response to the question "who are you, that should send me to the people of Israel?" - "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" "I am what I am."
Without vowels, both scholars of the Bible as well as linguists can only guess on the variation of the root HWH. In context, the word "YHWH" could also mean "He who builds," "He who lives" (the root "to be" has the variation of "to live" "to breathe" and "to build or bring into existence.")
A second theory is based on the linguistic evidence that the Semitic tri-root "HWH" indicates "things which fall," or a "storm." This argument suggests YHWH might be indicating at a Storm God. This highly compelling theory blends with the theory that YHWH was an Edomic Storm God who was adopted into the Canaanite culture.

Nothing remotely relating to your cliam.

Second line explicitly states that the semetic root of the word means either "He who is" or "He who creates".
"He who is", using basic tense changes means "I am".
Example: He is the president. I am the president.

[Kratu]

Yes there is in fact there is God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Yes I'm a Christian and have no denomination. F*ck denominations I'm a servant of Christ not the church most of us Christians are hipocrits anyway but that doesn't mean we goin to hell. Buddy I'm gonna be with my creator are you?

Well if there is a Creator why can't he/she/it show me evidence of its existence so I would have a reason to believe in it? Also why would a God create people who don't believe in it and then punish them for the fact that they don't believe in him? Also if I had to have an Afterlife I would prefer to be reincarnated as a Redwood Tree because they are resilient and they don't have to do anything.

[Menassa]

Nothing remotely relating to your cliam.

Second line explicitly states that the semetic root of the word means either "He who is" or "He who creates".
"He who is", using basic tense changes means "I am".
Example: He is the president. I am the president.

As you can see from what I've quoted you I wasn't discussing that... I was discussing your blatant disregard for the Hebrew language in place for your Christian message.

[Menassa]

Yes there is in fact there is God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Yes I'm a Christian and have no denomination. F*ck denominations I'm a servant of Christ not the church most of us Christians are hipocrits anyway but that doesn't mean we goin to hell. Buddy I'm gonna be with my creator are you?

[...]Also why would a God create people who don't believe in it [...]

Free will?

[ThePeacekeepers]

Is it not also written that the tribes were not to mix with each other or other nations? The Jews of today are not true Jews. Do the Jews of today keep the Law? Do they sacrifice for their sins? If the messiah has not come as they say then the law has not been fulfilled and therefore they are still under it for only through the Messiah can it be fulfilled. If on the other hand the Messiah did come then they do not accept him and can not achieve salvation. The Messiah did come and his Name is Yahshua the chirst and in his name only is there salvation. The Jews of today neither keep the law nor do they accept Yahshua as their savior. How can they be saved? I pray for the day that all nations will be gathered against Jerusalem as the lord said will happen Zechariah 14.

Erm, God never said the Law was supposed to be fulfilled, rather he said that the Law will stand forever and he called heaven as earth as witnesses.
He also never said the Belief in the Messiah was critical to salvation because the real Messiah will not require belief.

Forever has end. Forever and ever is eternal. The forever ended when the law was fulfilled in Yahshua and gods new law was put into place where only through the true name could man be saved for it is the only name given unto man by god by which they may achieve salvation.
Just as the real god does not require belief? So tell me, when the "real" messiah comes will all be saved unknowingly or against their own will even if they had lived their whole lives in sin?
Through faith and works only can man be saved. James 2:14-26

[Menassa]

Erm, God never said the Law was supposed to be fulfilled, rather he said that the Law will stand forever and he called heaven as earth as witnesses.
He also never said the Belief in the Messiah was critical to salvation because the real Messiah will not require belief.

Forever has end. Forever and ever is eternal. The forever ended when the law was fulfilled in Yahshua and gods new law was put into place where only through the true name could man be saved for it is the only name given unto man by god by which they may achieve salvation.

It's a scriptural impossibility to state that the Law could ever have been removed, replaced, or rescinded.

Just as the real god does not require belief? So tell me, when the "real" messiah comes will all be saved unknowingly or against their own will even if they had lived their whole lives in sin?
Through faith and works only can man be saved. James 2:14-26

Perhaps, probably through no fault of your own, you don't know the meaning of the word Messiah.
The word Messiah doesn't in any way mean God, Aaron the High Priest, Saul, and David were all Messiahs of God since the word Messiah simply means 'anointed one'

God requires belief, the idea that The Messiah requires belief in him at all negates much of the Hebrew Scriptures messianic detail. Of which it is stated that the entire world will be immediately aware of the Messiah, just as they will be of God, and just as they will be of forgetting war.

[ThePeacekeepers]

Jesus and Yahshua do not have the same meaning. Jesus and Yahshua are two separate names and there is only one by which you may be saved.

Jesus and Yashua have the exact same meaning just as Moshe and Moses do.

Salvation's not through a name, nor is through men but that's not the point.

Concerning Judas and Yehudah and other names like it I believe that all names in the bible should be brought back to their original form. Names should not but changed but preserved, the names of many of the people of old have not changed and would seem insane to change a prominent name of the past to simply make it easier on the individual if names did not remain constant but changed every hundred or so years history would be a mess and discerning who did what and at what time would be utter confusion. Why then in this instance should this mans name which holds more importance than any mans name in history be allowed to change?

Irrelevant and ignoring the point I made which you still have not answered.

The name should never have been altered or translated into any different form but should have kept its original and true form since it is the only name by which man can achieve salvation.

See first response.

Salvation can only be achieved through Yahshua's name, what I said was perfectly relevant to the subject we are discussing. They are different names. They are spelt different, sound different, and one is the original and one had to be changed many times to become what it is today. I have not found the site which I found before that had given me the examples of how Jesus meant hail zeus but I will keep looking on that point. Jesus does not have the word Yah in it so when you are giving a definition for it instead of it being Yahweh is salvation it would be Jehovah is salvation. As I have said the original name is different from the jesus in meaning and in sound and in spelling.

[Menassa]

Jesus and Yashua have the exact same meaning just as Moshe and Moses do.

Salvation's not through a name, nor is through men but that's not the point.


Irrelevant and ignoring the point I made which you still have not answered.


See first response.

Salvation can only be achieved through Yahshua's name, what I said was perfectly relevant to the subject we are discussing. They are different names. They are spelt different, sound different, and one is the original and one had to be changed many times to become what it is today. I have not found the site which I found before that had given me the examples of how Jesus meant hail zeus but I will keep looking on that point. Jesus does not have the word Yah in it so when you are giving a definition for it instead of it being Yahweh is salvation it would be Jehovah is salvation. As I have said the original name is different from the jesus in meaning and in sound and in spelling.

The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew my friend.

The oldest manuscripts don't say Yashua now do they? They say something more like Iesus, no?

[Kratu]

[...]Also why would a God create people who don't believe in it [...]

Free will?

The problem I have with that is that even if it was a test it has provided no evidence for others to convert so they don't convert even if their foundations in their native religion aren't that strong.

[ThePeacekeepers]

Forever has end. Forever and ever is eternal. The forever ended when the law was fulfilled in Yahshua and gods new law was put into place where only through the true name could man be saved for it is the only name given unto man by god by which they may achieve salvation.

It's a scriptural impossibility to state that the Law could ever have been removed, replaced, or rescinded.

Just as the real god does not require belief? So tell me, when the "real" messiah comes will all be saved unknowingly or against their own will even if they had lived their whole lives in sin?
Through faith and works only can man be saved. James 2:14-26

Perhaps, probably through no fault of your own, you don't know the meaning of the word Messiah.
The word Messiah doesn't in any way mean God, Aaron the High Priest, Saul, and David were all Messiahs of God since the word Messiah simply means 'anointed one'

God requires belief, the idea that The Messiah requires belief in him at all negates much of the Hebrew Scriptures messianic detail. Of which it is stated that the entire world will be immediately aware of the Messiah, just as they will be of God, and just as they will be of forgetting war.

The law was Fulfilled in Yahshua. Matthew 5:17-22
Give me the scripture so I can see it. Then I will provide you with an answer. As to my knowledge of the definition of the Messiah I was simply curious to what you meant by the real messiah so I reiterated it in my response.

[Menassa]

It's a scriptural impossibility to state that the Law could ever have been removed, replaced, or rescinded.

Perhaps, probably through no fault of your own, you don't know the meaning of the word Messiah.
The word Messiah doesn't in any way mean God, Aaron the High Priest, Saul, and David were all Messiahs of God since the word Messiah simply means 'anointed one'

God requires belief, the idea that The Messiah requires belief in him at all negates much of the Hebrew Scriptures messianic detail. Of which it is stated that the entire world will be immediately aware of the Messiah, just as they will be of God, and just as they will be of forgetting war.

The law was Fulfilled in Yahshua. Matthew 5:17-22

And on what ground does Jesus have to rescind the Law given by God?

Give me the scripture so I can see it. Then I will provide you with an answer. As to my knowledge of the definition of the Messiah I was simply curious to what you meant by the real messiah so I reiterated it in my response.

Deuteronomy 30.

[Menassa]

Free will?

The problem I have with that is that even if it was a test it has provided no evidence for others to convert so they don't convert even if their foundations in their native religion aren't that strong.

Whoa, who said anything about 'converting?'

[ThePeacekeepers]

Salvation can only be achieved through Yahshua's name, what I said was perfectly relevant to the subject we are discussing. They are different names. They are spelt different, sound different,

Salvation's not through a name, nor is through men but that's not the point.


Irrelevant and ignoring the point I made which you still have not answered.
and one is the original and one had to be changed many times to become what it is today. I have not found the site which I found before that had given me the examples of how Jesus meant hail zeus but I will keep looking on that point. Jesus does not have the word Yah in it so when you are giving a definition for it instead of it being Yahweh is salvation it would be Jehovah is salvation. As I have said the original name is different from the jesus in meaning and in sound and in spelling.

The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew my friend.

The oldest manuscripts don't say Yashua now do they? They say something more like Iesus, no?

The oldest manuscripts we have today were written in Greek, but given the fact that most of the apostles were Hebrew there must have been a text written in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is possible that since the text may have had the name Yahweh or Yahshua in it that the Jews, pharisees and sadducees, had the text sought out or destroyed because they contained the name Yah which they believe was too holy to be spoken and I'm guessing that probably went the same for writings too. I am not saying that is what happened, but I am saying that it would be a strange thing that a bunch of Hebrew people would choose to write the book in Greek and not in their native language, even just one copy for the churches who were mostly Hebrew speaking peoples.

[Menassa]

The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew my friend.

The oldest manuscripts don't say Yashua now do they? They say something more like Iesus, no?

The oldest manuscripts we have today were written in Greek, but given the fact that most of the apostles were Hebrew there must have been a text written in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is possible that since the text may have had the name Yahweh or Yahshua in it that the Jews, pharisees and sadducees, had the text sought out or destroyed because they contained the name Yah which they believe was too holy to be spoken and I'm guessing that probably went the same for writings too. I am not saying that is what happened, but I am saying that it would be a strange thing that a bunch of Hebrew people would choose to write the book in Greek and not in their native language, even just one copy for the churches who were mostly Hebrew speaking peoples.

Or, you know what's actually more in line with the Scripture, when preaching to the gentiles it's better to do it in their native language.
So far my friend your claims don't seem to hold to actual scrutiny. When Paul spoke about Salvation to the Galatians you think he did it in Hebrew? Do you think he cared how they called Jesus? No, I think not.

The philo-semetism that you exhibit seems almost trivial if not counter-intuitive to the actual point, and I don't mean that derisively.

[Mavorpen]

The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew my friend.

The oldest manuscripts don't say Yashua now do they? They say something more like Iesus, no?

The oldest manuscripts we have today were written in Greek, but given the fact that most of the apostles were Hebrew there must have been a text written in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is possible that since the text may have had the name Yahweh or Yahshua in it that the Jews, pharisees and sadducees, had the text sought out or destroyed because they contained the name Yah which they believe was too holy to be spoken and I'm guessing that probably went the same for writings too. I am not saying that is what happened, but I am saying that it would be a strange thing that a bunch of Hebrew people would choose to write the book in Greek and not in their native language, even just one copy for the churches who were mostly Hebrew speaking peoples.

I see the issue here. You don't understand how the field of historical studies works.

You cannot, I repeat, cannot, make a claim and then say, "WHAT IF IT WAS DESTROYED!?!" when asked for evidence. Do you have actual academic evidence to back up ANYTHING you're saying?

[Avenio]

The oldest manuscripts we have today were written in Greek, but given the fact that most of the apostles were Hebrew there must have been a text written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Do note that they were living in a melting pot of Hellenization, though. The apostles would have likely known at least a bit of Greek (a few of them probably much more, given their previous economic statuses), and it stands to reason that if they wanted to reach a larger pan-Mediterranean audience they might have wanted to write in Greek first and foremost, since Aramaic was basically a regional language that was rarely spoken outside of the Near East.

[ThePeacekeepers]

I am still building my case on the second point but I the first I will address both you and Avenio I believe that the name Yahshua becomes corrupted when it is altered just as Yahweh is corrupted when it is altered. I would not have the name of God changed from Yahweh to another name because that is his one and only name just as I would not have his son's name (Yahshua) changed because that is the one name given unto man by which they might achieve salvation.

If you place so much stock in using its original name, why do you keep calling it 'God'?

I ask you, would you change the name of God because it would be more convenient for you? Would you pray to this new name and suspect that he knew what you meant so it was okay? Would you then make idols unto his new name? This is how religions are corrupted. Changing something ever so slightly and saying that it is the same then doing so over and over again adding more and more until only a residue of the original faith is left. Yahweh is God and his name is holy just as Yahshua is the son of god and his name is holy.

One would hope that an omniscient, omnipotent being would be able to tell who you were praying to.

Yahweh is the only God. I call him God because he is the only God and his Name is Yahweh.
But if that were the case you could be using any name and He would understand and not care. But he has said there is only one name by which you can achieve salvation and that name is Yahshua. If getting the name right about himself or about his son was not important then he would not have given any names at all.

[Menassa]

If you place so much stock in using its original name, why do you keep calling it 'God'?



One would hope that an omniscient, omnipotent being would be able to tell who you were praying to.

[...] But he has said there is only one name by which you can achieve salvation and that name is Yahshua.[...]

Where did he say this?

You cannot bring evidence from a books written about Yeshua.

[Czechanada]

All religions should get together and mix together the best parts of each religion. We would have one religion which would be an improvement from all the rest, and thus no more disagreements!

[ThePeacekeepers]

The law was Fulfilled in Yahshua. Matthew 5:17-22

And on what ground does Jesus have to rescind the Law given by God?

Give me the scripture so I can see it. Then I will provide you with an answer. As to my knowledge of the definition of the Messiah I was simply curious to what you meant by the real messiah so I reiterated it in my response.

Deuteronomy 30.

He was Yahweh Manifest in the flesh. He fulfilled all the things the prophets said would be done. By the authority of his father Yahweh, who sent him to die for our sins.
I did not get that meaning from what I read. From my understanding of Deuteronomy 29 and thirty, he was telling them of the covenant between them and of the curse that would befall those that fell away from him. Could you show me in Deuteronomy 30 where it says that " the idea that The Messiah requires belief in him at all negates much of the Hebrew Scriptures messianic detail. Of which it is stated that the entire world will be immediately aware of the Messiah, just as they will be of God, and just as they will be of forgetting war."?

[Mavorpen]

And on what ground does Jesus have to rescind the Law given by God?

Deuteronomy 30.

He was Yahweh Manifest in the flesh. He fulfilled all the things the prophets said would be done.

Uh...no. Isaiah 2:4 says calls bullshit.