Should we Continue to Prosecute Nazi War Criminals?

[TheWalkingGhost]

How far did you have to reach to get that?

Spare me the ebadass routine.

Then I fail to see the point of your "written by the victor" comment. I was agreeing that the Allies did terrible things and should have been punished for them.

As for the ITG thing, there's a reason I said pretending.

What is right or wrong, moral or immoral are human constructs. Which side is seen as wrong is based by who is writing historical analysis of the era and or event...aka the victor. Yes, both sides did bad thingsbut our opinion is not entirely unbiased.

[Wisconsin9]

Then I fail to see the point of your "written by the victor" comment. I was agreeing that the Allies did terrible things and should have been punished for them.

As for the ITG thing, there's a reason I said pretending.

What is right or wrong, moral or immoral are human constructs. Which side is seen as wrong is based by who is writing historical analysis of the era and or event...aka the victor. Yes, both sides did bad thingsbut our opinion is not entirely unbiased.

I continue to fail to see your point, at all, which means that either I'm being a bit thick or you're making a terrible argument.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Closure.

Is not a logical rational reason. The case is closed, there's no reason to re-open it because someone can dredge up relics of it. Should we burn the Vatican for it's crimes in medieval Europe?

If the Vatican was still housing individuals who were implicit in things that made even people alive in Medieval times raise an eyebrow then yes, we probably should ask the question of holding them accountable for what they did. Or at least question the Vatican hiding them.

But of course anyone involved in such things are long dead. Unlike some individuals from the Nazi regime.

If there were living members from the period, yes. But there aren't.

So basically, you're justifying meaningless petty vengeance with nothing but arbitrary limits....

And people wonder why I think the world would be better off with robot overlords.

I'm curious at what point something ceases to be an act of justifiable sanction and becomes "pretty vengance" - why is it ok to go after a mass murder for a year, or two or ten, but not 30 or 50?

Time doesn't make them not have committed the crime.

Under what legal system is duress a defense to murder?

Most that recognize duress. Duress is accepted or rejected on a case by case basis rather than as an established law. Yes, commonly duress is not accepted as a defense to murder, but this isn't exactly an ordinary circumstance.

I've never heard of duress as a total defense in most modern legal system. It tends to serve as a mitigating factor, not a get out of jail free card, since if courts and juries accepted it as a total defense they would be saying "yes, we accept in this situation your life was more important than anothers when a gun was at your head. Or however many people you killed to save yourself".

And again, technically the people believed they were committing lawful executions. Then their government lost the war and all of a sudden those lawful executions are not so lawful.

War crimes tend to go beyond "lawful executions". We're talking the kind of stuff that even many Nazi commanders questioned (and there are plenty of documented cases of them refusing to pass them on, or protesting against, these sorts of things) - things like The Commissar Order, mass deportations/executions of political/war/ethnic prisoners etc.

I think, if they believed those things ok and not something they should have to answer for, simply because a politican said they were ok, then there was probably something wrong in their heads.

[TheWalkingGhost]

What is right or wrong, moral or immoral are human constructs. Which side is seen as wrong is based by who is writing historical analysis of the era and or event...aka the victor. Yes, both sides did bad thingsbut our opinion is not entirely unbiased.

I continue to fail to see your point, at all, which means that either I'm being a bit thick or you're making a terrible argument.

The former. You said two wrongs don't make a right...Think about what what i said about right or wrong.

[Wisconsin9]

I continue to fail to see your point, at all, which means that either I'm being a bit thick or you're making a terrible argument.

The former. You said two wrongs don't make a right...Think about what what i said about right or wrong.

So you disagree with the idea that the murder of 11 million people is wrong?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Like how every villager in Dachau somehow didn't smell the stench.

I'm not even kidding, they actually said this as the Americans liberated it.

The argument that Germans didn't know what was happening is not only false but a pitiful attempt to not take blame. Maybe they didn't see what was happening, but they knew something was going on. Hitler spoke frequently of the Jews, the slavs and other "undesirables" as a disease, a sickness, a plague. You don't deport a disease. You don't kick out a sickness or a plague. You exterminate it. You burn it. Germans didn't want to know what was going on, they just wanted to look the other way and pretend it wasn't happening.

They might not have realized just how bad it was, but yeah, they knew people were getting shipped off to camps and you didn't want to go to the camps.

Regarding the smell, people can get so used to bad smells that they don't notice them. It happens with hoarders who have rotting food, mouse droppings, etc. stinking up their houses. If the smell builds up gradually, people adjust to it.

Of course there is also an element of people blocking out the smell (consciously or unconsciously) because they don't want to deal with the problem.

[TheWalkingGhost]

The former. You said two wrongs don't make a right...Think about what what i said about right or wrong.

So you disagree with the idea that the murder of 11 million people is wrong?

No. If i was raised a nazi my opinion would change.

[Personal Freedom]

Nazism is a warning from history, one of the worst atrocities committed by man.

WWII has been over since 1945, and the prosecution of Nazis intensified from the 1960s since the prosecution of Eichmann.

Nazi hunting continues to his day, and while I do not condone Nazism, there is the issue that many Nazis are nearing their 90s.

Jakiw Palij for example is well into his 90s, everyday protesters rally against the old man's house in Queens, New York, scaring the neighbors and, well its technically harassment to the old man. His US citizenship has been revoked, and his native country Poland doesn't want him back.
He is a former Nazi but he now a very old man. Does it make sense to continue to try to prosecute him? A 91 year old?

Some will argue yes, after all he was part of the Third Reich and worked in concentration camps.

Others may say no, that we ought to show clemency? That these people are old and many frail, and that very little will be achieved to prosecute them now apart from satisfaction of Nazi hunters.

What is your opinion, NationStates General?

The prosecution does little and the big fish have been fried. Leave them be.

[Wisconsin9]

So you disagree with the idea that the murder of 11 million people is wrong?

No. If i was raised a nazi my opinion would change.

So fucking what?

[Geilinor]

So you disagree with the idea that the murder of 11 million people is wrong?

No. If i was raised a nazi my opinion would change.

Changes are that even if you were raised by Nazis, you would disagree with the murder of 11 million people.

[TheWalkingGhost]

No. If i was raised a nazi my opinion would change.

Changes are that even if you were raised by Nazis, you would disagree with the murder of 11 million people.

Depends on the reason. If i was a nazi i doubt i care about some dead jewish people. I was taught it was wrong, a nazi would teach me it was right.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Under what legal system is duress a defense to murder?

Militia are constantly recruiting young children in Africa by making them kill, you reckon these kids should be punished instead of the real killers?

They typically wouldn't be, since the average soldier or follower has to do something exceptional to end up in the stand. Just killing in war isn't enough, it's the type of killing for example.

Plus, children in most countries aren't tried or aren't tried to the full severity of the law, by dint of being children and their lack of certain maturities or understanding. The question of duress would almost never come up.

Course if they grew to an adult and did something that constituted as a war crime - yes. That would also be a time for the defense to bring up some form of reduced capacity due to the life they had to live from such a young age.

[Personal Freedom]

Militia are constantly recruiting young children in Africa by making them kill, you reckon these kids should be punished instead of the real killers?

They typically wouldn't be, since the average soldier or follower has to do something exceptional to end up in the stand. Just killing in war isn't enough, it's the type of killing for example.

Plus, children in most countries aren't tried or aren't tried to the full severity of the law, by dint of being children and their lack of certain maturities or understanding. The question of duress would almost never come up.

Course if they grew to an adult and did something that constituted as a war crime - yes. That would also be a time for the defense to bring up some form of reduced capacity due to the life they had to live from such a young age.

The big fish are dead. This is like trialing the kapos.

[Divair]

Changes are that even if you were raised by Nazis, you would disagree with the murder of 11 million people.

Depends on the reason. If i was a nazi i doubt i care about some dead jewish people. I was taught it was wrong, a nazi would teach me it was right.

It doesn't take a genius to realize killing 11 million people is wrong. That's not bias. That's just basic fucking empathy.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Changes are that even if you were raised by Nazis, you would disagree with the murder of 11 million people.

Depends on the reason. If i was a nazi i doubt i care about some dead jewish people. I was taught it was wrong, a nazi would teach me it was right.

They weren't all Jewish people.

And plenty of Nazis and civilians did seem to disagree with it. And it seemed many of those that did seem to agree with it apparently had not too much trouble accepting it was wrong afterwards. So....

Which is to say, the Nazis weren't Reapers with unresistable indoctrination powers in their realtively short time in power.

They typically wouldn't be, since the average soldier or follower has to do something exceptional to end up in the stand. Just killing in war isn't enough, it's the type of killing for example.

Plus, children in most countries aren't tried or aren't tried to the full severity of the law, by dint of being children and their lack of certain maturities or understanding. The question of duress would almost never come up.

Course if they grew to an adult and did something that constituted as a war crime - yes. That would also be a time for the defense to bring up some form of reduced capacity due to the life they had to live from such a young age.

The big fish are dead. This is like trialing the kapos.

A great many of the biggest fish we dead by the time of the Neuremburg Trials. And subsuquent trials. Still lots of middle management and lower who went above and beyond in participating things that could be constituted as war crimes. Far less today, but if there's still one or two around they deserve their day in cout.

[Personal Freedom]

Still, the function of these guys is not worse than that of kapos and we did not punish them.

[TheWalkingGhost]

Depends on the reason. If i was a nazi i doubt i care about some dead jewish people. I was taught it was wrong, a nazi would teach me it was right.

It doesn't take a genius to realize killing 11 million people is wrong. That's not bias. That's just basic fucking empathy.

Since when did nazis ever have empathy.....or intelligence?

[Divair]

It doesn't take a genius to realize killing 11 million people is wrong. That's not bias. That's just basic fucking empathy.

Since when did nazis ever have empathy.....or intelligence?

They don't, which is why hating them is the sane thing to do.

[TheWalkingGhost]

Since when did nazis ever have empathy.....or intelligence?

They don't, which is why hating them is the sane thing to do.

Of course.

[Tateric]

I say put them on trial, or execute them. But not because they were NAZIs but because of WHAT they did.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Since when did nazis ever have empathy.....or intelligence?

They don't, which is why hating them is the sane thing to do.

It hurts our feelings when you say things like that!

[Neutraligon]

They don't, which is why hating them is the sane thing to do.

It hurts our feelings when you say things like that!

You already admitted to being a bad Nazi anyway. It's the good Nazis we don't like. Besides you are a flower Nazi.

[Neutraligon]

Still, the function of these guys is not worse than that of kapos and we did not punish them.

The kapos were coerced into such a position.

[The Fascist American Empire]

Should Japanese Americans hate Americans for putting them into internment camps?

I wouldn't be surprised if people who were put into internment camps remain upset about that to this day.

I actually agree with Ifreann on something?

Huh. Who'd have thought.

[Personal Freedom]

Still, the function of these guys is not worse than that of kapos and we did not punish them.

The kapos were coerced into such a position.

According to this guys, so was he. AND you think the average prison guard had the choice. If they said no they'd be shot.