Does America need a bit of Socialism

[European Socialist Republic]

Is it though? It seems to me that the Chinese state owns quite alot of industries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... nterprises

"As of 2014, large state-owned enterprises (SOEs) are the backbone of China's economy, producing over 50% of the nation's goods and services, and employing over half of China's workers. Sixty-five of the Chinese companies in the 2012 Fortune Global 500 list were state-owned, including State Grid Corporation of China, which operates the country's power grid, and oil companies China National Petroleum Corporation and Sinopec. Profits of the largest state-owned enterprises were much greater than the largest firms in the private sector, which were largely small- and medium-sized businesses.

Reform efforts, spurred by problems with corruption at some firms, were focused on splitting state-owned firms or creating competing state-owned firms—rather than privatization, which is politically unacceptable to the ruling party. Firms attempting to maintain their position, such as the State Grid, pointed out the advantages of monopoly, using incidents such as the 2012 India blackouts as examples of disorganization.

As of 2011, 35% of business activity and 43% of profits in the People's Republic of China were generated by companies in which the state owned a majority interest."

It's this weird situation in which the government profits off of lots of companies, but they do fuck all about actually regulating what companies do. It's not really free market, or state capitalist, so I simply go with laissez faire.

Laissez-faire State Capitalism? That actually makes sense.

[Divair]

It's this weird situation in which the government profits off of lots of companies, but they do fuck all about actually regulating what companies do. It's not really free market, or state capitalist, so I simply go with laissez faire.

Laissez-faire State Capitalism? That actually makes sense.

Yes.

[Saiwania]

Oh yes capitalism is SO much better, . That's why germany's unionized more socialized economics is so inferior. Europe has no economies greater than america. And that's why communist-socialist china has such a bad economy.

No single European country on its own can match what the US has in GDP, while conversely- the US alone has a GDP that can match most of the entire EU combined. It seems to me that the US is the better economy. But China is heading towards number one. It is due to the fact that the Chinese have much lower minimum wage and labor rights. Those things drag down the economic performance.

[Divair]

Oh yes capitalism is SO much better, . That's why germany's unionized more socialized economics is so inferior. Europe has no economies greater than america. And that's why communist-socialist china has such a bad economy.

No single European country on its own can match what the US has in GDP, while conversely- the US alone has a GDP that can match most of the entire EU combined. It seems to me that the US is the better economy. But China is heading towards number one. It is the fact that they have a much lower minimum wage and labor rights. Those things drag down the economic performance.

The EU's GDP is larger than the US.


Not that GDP is a particularly good measure of.. well.. anything.

[New Connorstantinople]

Yes, we do

1000/10

You seriously mean to propose that out of 300,000,000 not a single american knows what communism is?

[America Libertaria]

Oh yes capitalism is SO much better, . That's why germany's unionized more socialized economics is so inferior. Europe has no economies greater than america. And that's why communist-socialist china has such a bad economy.

No single European country on its own can match what the US has in GDP, while conversely- the US alone has a GDP that can match most of the entire EU combined. It seems to me that the US is the better economy. But China is heading towards number one. It is the fact that they have a much lower minimum wage and labor rights. Those things drag down the economic performance.

Actually if the EU became one nation they would have a bigger economy than the US..

http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossdome ... conomy.htm

[America Libertaria]

No single European country on its own can match what the US has in GDP, while conversely- the US alone has a GDP that can match most of the entire EU combined. It seems to me that the US is the better economy. But China is heading towards number one. It is the fact that they have a much lower minimum wage and labor rights. Those things drag down the economic performance.

The EU's GDP is larger than the US.


Not that GDP is a particularly good measure of.. well.. anything.

it's the GDP per capita that counts.

[Mordakia]

No single European country on its own can match what the US has in GDP, while conversely- the US alone has a GDP that can match most of the entire EU combined. It seems to me that the US is the better economy. But China is heading towards number one. It is the fact that they have a much lower minimum wage and labor rights. Those things drag down the economic performance.

The EU's GDP is larger than the US.


Not that GDP is a particularly good measure of.. well.. anything.

Well Said,

http://www.divinecaroline.com/life-etc/ ... -socialism

[Divair]

The EU's GDP is larger than the US.


Not that GDP is a particularly good measure of.. well.. anything.

it's the GDP per capita that counts.

Not really.

[New Connorstantinople]

The USA should NOT imitate Europe in economics, its a no-brainer that capitalism works better in that sense, but PERHAPS it could imitate it in CERTQIN AREAS of social programs. I'd propose that the USA should remain center-right, so that it can see both centrism and moderately right politics. Socialism has NOT proven itself superior in economics, and this seems to be a pretty clear case of the grass being always green on the other side.

Oh yes capitalism is SO much better, . That's why germany's unionized more socialized economics is so inferior. Europe has no economies greater than america. And that's why communist-socialist china has such a bad economy.

And notice how "socialist" (its not socialist) Germany is having to keep many of the other EU nations afloat. And oh yeah, the PRC is suuuuuuuuuch a great place to live. I'm packing up my bags and moving to red China where MAYBE I can actually make some money as an individual!

[European Socialist Republic]

The EU's GDP is larger than the US.


Not that GDP is a particularly good measure of.. well.. anything.

it's the GDP per capita that counts.

Not really. Think about it this way: if Bill Gates was sitting in a bar with 9 poor people, the GDP per capita of the bar would be around $7 billion.

[New Connorstantinople]

it's the GDP per capita that counts.

Not really.

What would you propose?

[Divair]

Not really.

What would you propose?

What would I propose concerning what?

[Escasia]

Can we just get rid of the idea that Europe is partly socialist or otherwise non-capitalist in any way? The word "socialist" already means practically nothing now.

Neither Germany nor China have any socialist or communist economic policies. Germany is social democratic (ish). China is insanely laissez faire.

Is it though? It seems to me that the Chinese state owns quite alot of industries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... nterprises

"As of 2014, large state-owned enterprises (SOEs) are the backbone of China's economy, producing over 50% of the nation's goods and services, and employing over half of China's workers. Sixty-five of the Chinese companies in the 2012 Fortune Global 500 list were state-owned, including State Grid Corporation of China, which operates the country's power grid, and oil companies China National Petroleum Corporation and Sinopec. Profits of the largest state-owned enterprises were much greater than the largest firms in the private sector, which were largely small- and medium-sized businesses.

Reform efforts, spurred by problems with corruption at some firms, were focused on splitting state-owned firms or creating competing state-owned firms—rather than privatization, which is politically unacceptable to the ruling party. Firms attempting to maintain their position, such as the State Grid, pointed out the advantages of monopoly, using incidents such as the 2012 India blackouts as examples of disorganization.

As of 2011, 35% of business activity and 43% of profits in the People's Republic of China were generated by companies in which the state owned a majority interest."

Nationalization doesn't mean socialism. It doesn't matter if the state owns industries when the state isn't under control of the workers and surplus value is still being produced. (Whether a state can actually be under the control of workers and stay that way is another matter, though.)

[America Libertaria]

it's the GDP per capita that counts.

Not really.

Yes, really. it is an indicator of the average standard of living in each country.

[Divair]

Not really.

Yes, really. it is an indicator of the average standard of living in each country.

No. It's literally just GDP divided by population. That means fuck all. Unless you want to claim Brunei's standard of living is higher than the USA's and almost all of Europe?

[America Libertaria]

it's the GDP per capita that counts.

Not really. Think about it this was: if Bill Gates was sitting in a bar with 9 poor people, the GDP per capita of the bar would be around $7 billion.

That's a fair argument but it's an unrealistic hypothetical.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

1000/10

You seriously mean to propose that out of 300,000,000 not a single american knows what communism is?

Of course not.

[Nervium]

Not really. Think about it this was: if Bill Gates was sitting in a bar with 9 poor people, the GDP per capita of the bar would be around $7 billion.

That's a fair argument but it's an unrealistic hypothetical.

Indeed, Bill Gates doesn't sit in bars. He hovers.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You seriously mean to propose that out of 300,000,000 not a single american knows what communism is?

Of course not.

I'm a naturalized citizen so I kinda count as an American.

I think I have a somewhat educated opinion about communism.

Therefore your hypothesis is bullshit.

[America Libertaria]

Yes, really. it is an indicator of the average standard of living in each country.

No. It's literally just GDP divided by population. That means fuck all. Unless you want to claim Brunei's standard of living is higher than the USA's and almost all of Europe?

It's useful because iving standards tend to move with per-capita GDP, so that changes in living standards are readily detected through changes in GDP.

[Ragnarum]

Yes. But it also needs quite a bit more state capitalism.

And no, I don't mean like that.

[Divair]

No. It's literally just GDP divided by population. That means fuck all. Unless you want to claim Brunei's standard of living is higher than the USA's and almost all of Europe?

It's useful because iving standards tend to move with per-capita GDP, so that changes in living standards are readily detected through changes in GDP.

No. Correlation does not equal causation. If you want to play it simple and and simple rely on one statistic (what a horrible idea), then the least you could do is use HDI. Even then, that's just being intellectually dishonest.

[European Socialist Republic]

Not really. Think about it this was: if Bill Gates was sitting in a bar with 9 poor people, the GDP per capita of the bar would be around $7 billion.

That's a fair argument but it's an unrealistic hypothetical.

Tell that to Qatar, which is somehow in the top 5...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... P_(nominal)_per_capita

[Kolechistan]

Socialism, communism, and capitalism aren't philosophies to me primarily. I see them each as tools in a toolbox that used properly can do what is best for society at large.

Some markets are best served by different methods.

Food, for example, is a fungible good with lots of variety, and you don't really need a shitton of capital to make it. It is therefore IMO best served by capitalism.

Electricity and utilities in general tend to be capital intensive, and competition in the market is usually fraught with serious inefficiencies. Therefore I think they are best served in a communist fashion by being government owned and operated, so that no private entity is in a position to abuse a monopoly position.

Healthcare is good example of mixing the two. Doctors provide competable services, but it's in the public's best interests to have patients subsidized to some degree. For one, the benefits usually outweigh the costs, and another is that people can often suffer from ailments that aren't their fault.

So yes, I think America needs a bit of socialism, but I want it to be added by someone who has a brain and knows what they're doing. They are tools, and should be treated as such. Someone blindly following them as a philosophy is going to make a mess.