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Clegg v Farage

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Who will come out on top in the Debate?

Nigel Paul Farage
43
53%
Nicholas William Peter Clegg
38
47%
 
Total votes : 81

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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:43 am

So the BBC is to host a televised debate on the subject of the EU between the two on April 2nd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26443312


Personally Its easy to see why Clegg is doing it. He simply has nothing to lose. The LD's are most likely going to get trounced at the end of may so he lots to possibly gain and little to lose. Farage must clearly feel he can still further improve UKIP's vote in the election. Of the two of them Farage is the better public speaker and I would say debater, I know not a lot of people watch EU parliament sessions but I do watch highlights and comparing say Farage and the questions he poses and Cleggs performances in Parliament such as when taking PMQ's in place of Cameron.

A lot will depend on how much like a debate it is and how much like a series of questions it is. As well as how willing David Dimbleby is to let them engage each other. I was not a fan of the 2010 debates they seemed contrived rather than proper debates, I stopped watching after the first two of four (including the chancellors). On the whole I am not a fan of american presidential style debates sort of like the ones we had in 2010, they tend to lack content, depth and information as well as focusing more on attacking the man not the policies. The 2010 debates were not that bad as they had little of the ad hominem but still not great. I would prefer a more academic style of debate but then I tend to be a bit of a Purist. I prefer for example Test over ODI or T20 cricket and eating dinner round a table as opposed to in front of the TV on a sofa.

I think Farage will probably come off best, as it's already looking bad for Clegg from the BBC article. Attacking somebody over voting record who has a better voting record than yourself is pretty stupid.

In a speech on the EU's role to the Centre for European Reform, Mr Clegg accused Mr Farage and his colleagues of failing to "stand up for Britain" in the European Parliament.

"Nigel Farage and deputy leader Paul Nuttall rarely turn up to vote in the European Parliament, despite being happy to take their taxpayer-funded salaries," he said.

"UKIP MEPs refuse to roll up their sleeves and get down to work. Nigel Farage hasn't tabled a single amendment to EU legislation since July 2009."

Mr Farage hit back at his rival's claims, saying: "Nick Clegg has some cheek raising attendance and voting records. Although Nick Clegg lives in London, between 2010 and 2014 he has voted in Westminster only 22.6% of the time.

"By contrast I live eight hours away from Strasbourg, lead a national party and have voted 55% of the time in the European Parliament.

"Furthermore from 2005-10 Nick Clegg's voting record in Westminster was only 42.5% and for much of that period he was not leader of the Lib Dems.

You would think he would check this sort of stuff out before saying anything. If Clegg does this sort of thing in the debate he is going to lose, he needs to stick to why he believes in the EU not resort to negative politics and campaigning, usually the realm of Labour. If he turns away from negative campaigning he has a chance of coming out of the debate well.

As for effects, strangely I see it being a boost to both if Clegg avoids negative debate, the reason being they are the only two mainstream parties that have a uniform position on the issue of the EU. For and against respectively. Both the other two main parties by popular support have an "in and and "out" camp within them. Thus Clegg could gain those who are Pro Eu from the other parties for May whilst Farage Gains more anti vote.

Neither of them have much to lose and I think it will be good for both of their parties. Those who should be worried are the Conservatives and Labour due to the lack of a concrete position. Cameron has at least tried with his "New Deal" for Britain but Labour have come up with nothing.


Interesting development on the whole though, especially with the European elections not long after. So what do you think about it? Who will come out on top? why? and what effects will this have on the European parliament elections?


Also anybody willing to bet that we end up with stereotyping and "in before" post's before the bottom of the first page?
Mod Edit: Did away with the all-caps.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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L Ron Cupboard
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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:51 am

Based on Clegg's performance at the 2010 election debates, and Farage's recent conference speech, I think Clegg will come off the best.
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Postby GrarG » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:57 am

This is it; the watershed moment when the UKIP officially becomes the UK's 3rd party.

They had a good run, the libdems, but the spinelessness they have shown since becoming coalition 'partners' is as damning as it is tragic. I know I won't be voting for them again after such a performance.

As for who will 'win' this debate? Clegg is the smarter man, the better speaker and the more experienced politician and will no doubt have answers for all of Farage's eurosceptic dogma, but I believe he is fighting a loosing battle against public opinion, so ultimately it will do him no favours.
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Postby Olivaero » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:23 am

This is an excellent opportunity for Nick Clegg, He gets a chance to actually engage the most vocal Eurosceptic in the UK in a televised debate. So he gets to make it clear the Lib dems have some issues which they believe in and he gets to fire up his base at the same time. Also he puts voice to Europhile sentiments and gives them something to rally around of any party. Where as Everyone already knows farages schtick they don't vote for him because he's the leader of one issue party a party by the way which will be massively hyping him up meaning that if Nick Clegg even just holds his own it will look like a win for him.

I also think the facts are on Nick Cleggs side which will help if he is able to articulate them well, something he should be very well practiced at doing.

This is it; the watershed moment when the UKIP officially becomes the UK's 3rd party.


Oh by the way, if this happens the conservatives will not win an election for quite a while. It would be fucking devastating for them if UKIP actually started winning seats. And they just barely got a government after years upon years of a (near the end) deeply unpopular Labour government. But I think it's unlikely, the Lib dems have a base. Believe it or not an honest to god base that isn't students. UKIP doesn't have shit aside from one popular issue, that isn't enough to get you a seat in the House of Commons.
Last edited by Olivaero on Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The USOT
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Postby The USOT » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:56 am

A sellout vs the head of the UK anti-science party.

Whatever the outcome, we lose.
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Postby Agritum » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:13 am

I'd gladly see them in the next UFC Fight Night.

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Postby Gallup » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:16 am

The Archregimancy wrote:Can we not post thread titles all in caps, please?

That's two threads in the last few minutes, and it looks a bit shouty.

Thank you.

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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:24 am

Gallup wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:Can we not post thread titles all in caps, please?

That's two threads in the last few minutes, and it looks a bit shouty.

Thank you.

BUT WHAT IF YOU WANT TO GET PEOPLE TO LOOK AT YOU?


You create a thread called does God exist and put a one line OP ending with etc...
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Postby Gallup » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:41 am

L Ron Cupboard wrote:
Gallup wrote:BUT WHAT IF YOU WANT TO GET PEOPLE TO LOOK AT YOU?


You create a thread called does God exist and put a one line OP ending with etc...

:lol:

Those threads are always the same.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:43 am

I believe the last time this came up I said that Clegg will win in terms of having facts and logical arguments on his side, whereas Farage will win in terms of getting people angry at foreigners.
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Postby United Kingdom of Kent » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:04 am

I think Nigel Farrage will probably come off best, if you like his politics or don't there's no denying he has a charismatic charm and down to earth mentality that will win allot of support among the general public.

Plus Clegg is a spineless bugger who might as well not even be there.
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Zeedijk
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Postby Zeedijk » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:05 am

I am going to go with Farage.
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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:22 am

Funny how the poll has suddenly swung massively in the opposite direction. Someone's been voting with puppets.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:26 am

L Ron Cupboard wrote:Funny how the poll has suddenly swung massively in the opposite direction. Someone's been voting with puppets.

Ah, for the days when votes were public.
Last edited by Ifreann on Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby United Kingdom of Kent » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:36 am

L Ron Cupboard wrote:Funny how the poll has suddenly swung massively in the opposite direction. Someone's been voting with puppets.


Whys that your first assumption? I'm certain you wouldn't be claiming that if the poll now swings Cleggs way. To begin with the gap earlier was hardly larger than 2 and even now is a small margin.
Last edited by United Kingdom of Kent on Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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L Ron Cupboard
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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:53 am

United Kingdom of Kent wrote:
Whys that your first assumption?


Because I have observed the same pattern with other polls involving politics or religion, but not in polls on other less partisan subjects.
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:56 am

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Postby Wilkshire » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:57 am

Clegg will wipe the floor with Farage.

Whether you like the LIb Dem leader or not you have to admit he is good at debating, remember his performances in the run up to the 2010 General Election. Farage on the other hand has a habit of losing his temper in interviews.

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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:02 am

Wilkshire wrote:Clegg will wipe the floor with Farage.

Whether you like the LIb Dem leader or not you have to admit he is good at debating, remember his performances in the run up to the 2010 General Election. Farage on the other hand has a habit of losing his temper in interviews.


Yes, the competition truly was top quality in the 2010 debates. :lol2:
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:12 am

Olivaero wrote: But I think it's unlikely; the Lib dems have a base. Believe it or not an honest to god base that isn't students.


Something that tends to get forgotten by NSG given the age demographic here.

Why, there's even quite a few LibDem voters over 40.

I should know; I'm one of them.

I mean, I appreciate why students are particularly upset at the LibDems, really I do. But - as I've often done before, and will no doubt do again - writing as someone who was lecturing at a British university at the time of the 2010 election, the non-student LibDem demographic wasn't nearly as furious with Clegg as the student demographic was when it came to the fees issue. He made a really bad tactical error in so publicly endorsing a policy he didn't support, and which he tried to get the party to drop (LibDem leaders can't actually force their policy choices on the party - both a strength and a weakness), but most of us working in the higher education sector knew that a tuition fees rise was inevitable. It was an unavoidable byproduct of the Tory decision to drastically increase the number of universities, and the subsequent Labour decision to drastically increase the number of students, with the ambition that 50% of school leavers would go to university.. Those two policies made state funding of free - or even cheap - student tuition more or less impossible.

Much of that older LibDem voter base is also intellectually committed to the idea of coalition, and the difficult and disappointing compromises that come with being the junior partner in a coalition, as a natural outgrowth of being in favour of electoral reform; one is a natural corollary of the other. There are times - not always, but times - when it looks like some of the "OMG, Clegg and the LibDems are SO SPINELESS" crowd wouldn't be satisfied unless the current government was doing nothing but instituting the LibDem manifesto in full. But when one party in a coalition controls 303 seats, and the other controls only 56 seats, which party do they think is going to institute more of its policy choices? I think it's at least as telling that the Peter Bone wing of the Tories is running around whinging that the government hasn't been a real Conservative government because that pesky Mr. Clegg is holding them back.

None of the above should be taken as indicating that I'm happy with everything the government's done, or that I'm a natural supporter of Clegg within the party (I would have preferred Saint Vince as leader); but, you know.... we almost ended up with Chris Huhne. And at that point, I'm thankful for small mercies.


As to the Clegg-Farage debate, I imagine Farage will do really well with Daily Mail readers, but I also think a lot of people are underestimating Clegg. In the end, unless one of the two makes a really horrific gaffe, it's likely that an individual's opinion of who won the debate will likely depend on which party they were predisposed towards supporting in the first place.

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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:14 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:Yes, the competition truly was top quality in the 2010 debates. :lol2:


You think Farage is better debater than Brown and Cameron?
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:15 am

United Kingdom of Kent wrote:I think Nigel Farrage will probably come off best, if you like his politics or don't there's no denying he has a charismatic charm and down to earth mentality that will win allot of support among the general public.


I strongly deny that Farage has either a charismatic charm or a down to earth mentality.


L Ron Cupboard wrote:Someone's been voting with puppets.


The evidence certainly points that way.

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Postby The Scientific States » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:21 am

Clegg, without a doubt.
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:22 am

L Ron Cupboard wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:Yes, the competition truly was top quality in the 2010 debates. :lol2:


You think Farage is better debater than Brown and Cameron?


To be honest watching the debates was like watching three different colours of paint dry.
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