Appeals court says school had right to ban U.S. flag T-shirt

[Viritica]

Um... Okay.

Maybe you should learn a little more about race relations before declaring that all liberals are wrong in their calling anyone racist?

He should also probably learn a little more about his racial & ethnic slurs, judging by how he used "wetback."

Yeah. Pardon me for not using racial slurs often.

[Mushet]

The completely awesome thing about reading this thread is the most ardent and relentless of the defenders has repeatedly conceded the point, that being disruptive and not the flag itself is an issue, and yet somehow has continued to dogmatically insist it was about the flag. It has been a wonder to behold, truly. It's like watching Robocop trying to shoot an Omnicorp board member, he knows he should, but it just goes against his programing.

I am not, nor have I ever, defended a student's right to disrupt class. Wearing a t-shirt does not disrupt class. White students should be allowed to wear American flag t-shirts whenever they please, Hispanic students should be allowed to wear Mexican flag t-shirts whenever they please, white students should be allowed to wear Mexican flag t-shirts whenever they please, and Hispanic students should be allowed to wear American flag t-shirts whenever they please. It's basic freedom of speech. That is not tantamount to allowing students to be disruptive or harass other students. Students that are guilty of disruption or harassment should be punished as individuals. Not as a group.

Wearing these shirts in this instance, in this context was disruptive

And what happened is the students in question were asked to turn their shirts inside out due to it being disruptive in this context, they refused, so they were asked to leave, there was never any blanket ban on American flag shirts.

[United Marxist Nations]

He should also probably learn a little more about his racial & ethnic slurs, judging by how he used "wetback."

Yeah. Pardon me for not using racial slurs often.

Not using them is no excuse for using them wrong.

[Viritica]

Yeah. Pardon me for not using racial slurs often.

Not using them is no excuse for using them wrong.

Right, I'll be sure to be correct the next time I call someone a wetback.

[Flau Byeregenie]

I am not, nor have I ever, defended a student's right to disrupt class. Wearing a t-shirt does not disrupt class. White students should be allowed to wear American flag t-shirts whenever they please, Hispanic students should be allowed to wear Mexican flag t-shirts whenever they please, white students should be allowed to wear Mexican flag t-shirts whenever they please, and Hispanic students should be allowed to wear American flag t-shirts whenever they please. It's basic freedom of speech. That is not tantamount to allowing students to be disruptive or harass other students. Students that are guilty of disruption or harassment should be punished as individuals. Not as a group.

Wearing these shirts in this instance, in this context was disruptive

Yet more evidence for my proposition that the fundamental defining intellectual error underlying right-wing "thought" is a complete and utter failure to incorporate the concept of context in their worldview.

I haven't seen anything yet that it doesn't explain.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Agreeing with the court. Just because the t-shirt is not on it's own offensive, it was worn for offensive purposes.

[United Marxist Nations]

Not using them is no excuse for using them wrong.

Right, I'll be sure to be correct the next time I call someone a wetback.

No, I mean you got the context wrong; you said "wetback who hates Mexicans." That makes no goddamn sense.

[Viritica]

Right, I'll be sure to be correct the next time I call someone a wetback.

No, I mean you got the context wrong; you said "wetback who hates Mexicans." That makes no goddamn sense.

Yeah, I realize that now. Thank you very much.

[Trotskylvania]

Given that that wasn't a response, I guess you're accepting all of the arguments made here?

Nope. I'm just poking fun at his baseless implication that I'm a dirty wetback who hates Mexicans.

I admitted that the phrasing was not the most intuitive, but most people seemed to have grasped, based on the use of pronouns, context clues, and their own background knowledge, that I was accusing people who were enraged at this ruling of deriding Mexicans as dirty wetbacks.

[Viritica]

Nope. I'm just poking fun at his baseless implication that I'm a dirty wetback who hates Mexicans.

I admitted that the phrasing was not the most intuitive, but most people seemed to have grasped, based on the use of pronouns, context clues, and their own background knowledge, that I was accusing people who were enraged at this ruling of deriding Mexicans as dirty wetbacks.

Which I was never doing.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

[Mushet]

Speaking as a Canadian, I think this is absolutely uncalled for what is gonna happen with The 4th of July? Gonna ban Latin Flag shirts or other apparel? What about any other american holidays? Gonna ban them then too? This right here Is proof that racism is an illusion, are white people Racists? some of them could be considered racist.... That is if you leave out the fact that other "Races" seem to be able to say what ever they wasn't to about white people and not get shit for it. During a trip To NYC I watched a black man call a white Cop a Cracker and walk away, When I asked why he hadnt done any thing he replied "Because It would be racist to reprimand him in any way"

This "Racism" bullshit has gone way too far... I guess thats what happens when your Race once dominated the world and then suddenly turns into a bunch of little bitches....

Oh whaaaaahhhh white people are so oppressed

Racism is an illusion? Ha! What happens is you cherry pick anecdotal examples and ignore the reality of what's happening around you and then you come to asinine conclusions like this.

[RoarkVarakian]

Not using them is no excuse for using them wrong.

Right, I'll be sure to be correct the next time I call someone a wetback.

(Assuming from your earlier post that you are mexican/latin in some way) Your earlier post saying "Wetback Mexican" is contradictory as 'Wetback' is a racial slur for mexicans

[Viritica]

Right, I'll be sure to be correct the next time I call someone a wetback.

(Assuming from your earlier post that you are mexican/latin in some way) Your earlier post saying "Wetback Mexican" is contradictory as 'Wetback' is a racial slur for mexicans

Right, I'll be sure to be correct the next time I call someone a wetback.

No, I mean you got the context wrong; you said "wetback who hates Mexicans." That makes no goddamn sense.

[Pilotto]

Wearing these shirts in this instance, in this context was disruptive

Yet more evidence for my proposition that the fundamental defining intellectual error underlying right-wing "thought" is a complete and utter failure to incorporate the concept of context in their worldview.

I haven't seen anything yet that it doesn't explain.

So it is now the government's job to decide under what "context" your freedom of speech applies, and when it doesn't? Maybe that student was trying to be helpful when he said "Bless you", or maybe he was trying to be disruptive because it's the week before Hanukkah! A t-shirt that is not inherently racist or prejudicial should not be barred on Cinco de Mayo. You can ignore a stupid t-shirt. If the students were interrupting class to chant or to insult Latinos, or whatever, then they should be punished as individuals, not as an ethnic group.

[Trotskylvania]

I admitted that the phrasing was not the most intuitive, but most people seemed to have grasped, based on the use of pronouns, context clues, and their own background knowledge, that I was accusing people who were enraged at this ruling of deriding Mexicans as dirty wetbacks.

Which I was never doing.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

There's only one reason you could be upset with this ruling. It's racism.

Unless you think that Americans have the right to harass Mexicans and disrupt their learning environment and imply that they don't belong here, you can't be upset with this ruling. It doesn't matter what you say, it matters what you think and how you act. You can say you're not a racist all you want. But if you're acting in a racist manner, and getting your panties in a twist because the Courts say you can't harass Mexicans, we're not going to believe you.

[Trotskylvania]

Yet more evidence for my proposition that the fundamental defining intellectual error underlying right-wing "thought" is a complete and utter failure to incorporate the concept of context in their worldview.

I haven't seen anything yet that it doesn't explain.

So it is now the government's job to decide under what "context" your freedom of speech applies, and when it doesn't? Maybe that student was trying to be helpful when he said "Bless you", or maybe he was trying to be disruptive because it's the week before Hanukkah! A t-shirt that is not inherently racist or prejudicial should not be barred on Cinco de Mayo. You can ignore a stupid t-shirt. If the students were interrupting class to chant or to insult Latinos, or whatever, then they should be punished as individuals, not as an ethnic group.

They are being punished as individuals.

They are not being punished as an ethnic group. They are being punished for racially motivated taunting and harassment, in which they misappropriate the US flag and tried to use it as a weapon to express their intolerance and bigotry.

[Viritica]

Which I was never doing.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

There's only one reason you could be upset with this ruling. It's racism.

Unless you think that Americans have the right to harass Mexicans and disrupt their learning environment and imply that they don't belong here, you can't be upset with this ruling. It doesn't matter what you say, it matters what you think and how you act. You can say you're not a racist all you want. But if you're acting in a racist manner, and getting your panties in a twist because the Courts say you can't harass Mexicans, we're not going to believe you.

Or you just think it's ridiculous that a shirt with the American flag on it got banned because some hyper-sensitive people found it offensive? And before you say anything, no. I wouldn't really care if someone started walking around my neighborhood with a Nazi shirt on. I just plain wouldn't care.

Also, but there are other ways to combat racial tension besides banning everything that someone finds offensive.

[RoarkVarakian]

Oh whaaaaahhhh white people are so oppressed

Thank you for agreeing!

Racism is an illusion? Ha! What happens is you cherry pick anecdotal examples and ignore the reality of what's happening around you and then you come to asinine conclusions like this.

Seriously though, in Canada it seems impossible for anyone but a white person to be racist. Perhaps illusion was the wrong word to use...Non-issue? As realistically thats all it is. I dont Care much for racist people or actions, therefore I dont react to their remarks and they eventually either move on or give up. If this was a racist action then it should have been ignored, Not getting a reaction out of anyone would probably have either satisfied these kids of would have made them realize that their actions were pointless.

[Flau Byeregenie]

Yet more evidence for my proposition that the fundamental defining intellectual error underlying right-wing "thought" is a complete and utter failure to incorporate the concept of context in their worldview.

I haven't seen anything yet that it doesn't explain.

So it is now the government's job to decide under what "context" your freedom of speech applies, and when it doesn't?

Yes. We do that all the time. For example, it's context that is the difference between saying "I'm going to kill you!" in the context of a game of Counterstrike being protected speech, versus the same phrase in the context of a heated argument being an illegal threat. How is this difficult?

A t-shirt that is not inherently racist or prejudicial should not be barred on Cinco de Mayo.

What part of "racism is structural and performative" do you not understand, exactly?

they should be punished as individuals, not as an ethnic group.

Do you actually understand what the hell is going on here?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Or you just think it's ridiculous that a shirt with the American flag on it got banned because some hyper-sensitive people found it offensive? And before you say anything, no. I wouldn't really care if someone started walking around my neighborhood with a Nazi shirt on. I just plain wouldn't care.

Well, yeah, you just proved you don't take anything with a lot of empathy for how minority folk feel.

It was banned because 1. using shirt flag is wrong to start with 2. it wasn't done with intention of patriotism truly 3. it was misused for ethnic nationalism, against its correct purpose 4. it was used as harassing in an environment where such things should be unacceptable 5. fights and bloods, HISTORICALLY, for YEARS, resulted from such practice

So no, it's not bowing to hypersensitivity, it's just fucking commonsense and you right-wingers should stop behaving like ostriches about this.

[Trotskylvania]

There's only one reason you could be upset with this ruling. It's racism.

Unless you think that Americans have the right to harass Mexicans and disrupt their learning environment and imply that they don't belong here, you can't be upset with this ruling. It doesn't matter what you say, it matters what you think and how you act. You can say you're not a racist all you want. But if you're acting in a racist manner, and getting your panties in a twist because the Courts say you can't harass Mexicans, we're not going to believe you.

Or you just think it's ridiculous that a shirt with the American flag on it got banned because some hyper-sensitive people found it offensive? And before you say anything, no. I wouldn't really care if someone started walking around my neighborhood with a Nazi shirt on. I just plain wouldn't care.

Also, but there are other ways to combat racial tension besides banning everything that someone finds offensive.

It's a matter of time and place.

American flag shirt on any given day: tacky, but not a problem. But if you're wearing that same shirt to admittedly taunt Mexican students on Cinco de Mayo, not just as an individual but as part of a organized campaign, that's a problem. And that's why the school said "Fuck no, don't do that," when they caught wind of it. And punished people when they went and did it anyway.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

-snip-

No, and of course you don't care about the existence of racism, because it doesn't affect white people systemically in Western countries. Just like a hetero person can ignore if people suffer with homophobia and cis people can ignore if people suffer with transphobia and the institutionalized discrimination that follows places with these as general societal attitudes to differences, you can also forget you have a race most of the time.

[Mushet]

Yet more evidence for my proposition that the fundamental defining intellectual error underlying right-wing "thought" is a complete and utter failure to incorporate the concept of context in their worldview.

I haven't seen anything yet that it doesn't explain.

So it is now the government's job to decide under what "context" your freedom of speech applies, and when it doesn't? Maybe that student was trying to be helpful when he said "Bless you", or maybe he was trying to be disruptive because it's the week before Hanukkah! A t-shirt that is not inherently racist or prejudicial should not be barred on Cinco de Mayo. You can ignore a stupid t-shirt. If the students were interrupting class to chant or to insult Latinos, or whatever, then they should be punished as individuals, not as an ethnic group.

It's a good thing they weren't being punished as an ethnic group then isn't it? It was a conscious organized action by a few students to wear those shirts to antagonize the Mexican American population of the school, this is very clear when you look at those students as a group decided to wear these in unison, this isn't the first year that they did this, last year they did it too and that was the same year there was an altercation of some students bringing waving an American flag around on Cinco de Mayo complete with using plenty of racial profanities. Understandably many of the Mexican American students were upset that these students decided to make a point out of together wearing the American flag paraphrenalia the next Cinco de Mayo, this baiting was causing plenty of disruptionso the students in question were asked to turn the shirts inside out, a couple refused so they were sent home.

[Viritica]

Or you just think it's ridiculous that a shirt with the American flag on it got banned because some hyper-sensitive people found it offensive? And before you say anything, no. I wouldn't really care if someone started walking around my neighborhood with a Nazi shirt on. I just plain wouldn't care.

Also, but there are other ways to combat racial tension besides banning everything that someone finds offensive.

It's a matter of time and place.

American flag shirt on any given day: tacky, but not a problem. But if you're wearing that same shirt to admittedly taunt Mexican students on Cinco de Mayo, not just as an individual but as part of a organized campaign, that's a problem. And that's why the school said "Fuck no, don't do that," when they caught wind of it. And punished people when they went and did it anyway.

But that doesn't solve anything. It just tells the students that they need to go find other ways to offend their Mexican brothers. The problem with you libs is that you don't seem to realize that banning everything that people find offensive doesn't solve anything.

A better way to combat this would have been to open Mexican culture classes in the school and to organize all the more tolerant students and get them to wear shirts with the Mexican flag on it as a way of passively responding to this.

[Pilotto]

So it is now the government's job to decide under what "context" your freedom of speech applies, and when it doesn't?

Yes. We do that all the time. For example, it's context that is the difference between saying "I'm going to kill you!" in the context of a game of Counterstrike being protected speech, versus the same phrase in the context of a heated argument being an illegal threat. How is this difficult?

Ah, so now now wearing a spangly t-shirt is tantamount to threatening someone with physical harm. Nice fallacy.

A t-shirt that is not inherently racist or prejudicial should not be barred on Cinco de Mayo.

What part of "racism is structural and performative" do you not understand, exactly?

So if a Latino were to wear a shirt with the Mexican flag on it during the 4th of July, would that be racist? Of course not, because the flag is a national symbol, not an ethnic one.

they should be punished as individuals, not as an ethnic group.

Do you actually understand what the hell is going on here?

Yes. White students are barred from wearing patriotic apparel in a certain school in California on the date of a foreign holiday because other white students used it as an opportunity to be disruptive and overly nationalistic in the past, and were attacked for it. The school's response is to ban patriotic apparel on this foreign holiday for one specific ethnic group (caucasians) in order to prevent anticipate violence, rather than punishing disruptive and violent students as individuals, like they should.