What if Lucifer is the good guy and God is the bad one?

[Draica]

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

We were made with sin IN us, and everyone sins, but we are encouraged to stay away from sin. We are not specifically DESIGNED to sin.

[Menassa]

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

It is not made by God. Original sin is caused by Satan who deceived Eve to bite the fruit of knowledge.

Thereby putting humanity in a sinful state, no?

Which required God to send Jesus to die?

[Straughn]

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

It is not made by God. Original sin is caused by Satan who deceived Eve to bite the fruit of knowledge.

In your opinion, which hopefully will happily embrace education over time, both from personal effort and perhaps what this thread has to offer.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently not. Apparently, that verse is interpreted as referring to Satan.

The point I'm focusing on is that wiki says 'rather than the king of Babylon'

Instead of: 'rather than the king of Tyre'

Eh, maybe they just mistyped or got their verses mixed up.

What exactly is so offensive about the OP, pray tell?

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

The OP asked a thought provoking question and stated what he viewed. I fail to see how that is offensive other than you, personally, opting to get offended.

Your understanding of free will, of having a choice, is rather erred. Very much so. If I'm to go by Christian precepts, I should strive to not be bad, to do no evil. But in having been bestowed with free will, I can choose my own path. I can choose to ignore that precept and do as I will.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

If we were designed to not sin, we wouldn't have been given free will. We wouldn't have been given the ability to choose.

[Menassa]

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

We were made with sin IN us, and everyone sins, but we are encouraged to stay away from sin. We are not specifically DESIGNED to sin.

Humanity is totally depraved, is it not?

[Menassa]

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

If we were designed to not sin, we wouldn't have been given free will. We wouldn't have been given the ability to choose.

I personally, believe, as my faith does, that humanity has a good inclination and an evil inclination inside it.

[Maharo]

It is not made by God. Original sin is caused by Satan who deceived Eve to bite the fruit of knowledge.

Thereby putting humanity in a sinful state, no?

Which required God to send Jesus to die?

To die to save us from our sins. God did not like that but he only did it out of his love for us

The point I'm focusing on is that wiki says 'rather than the king of Babylon'

Instead of: 'rather than the king of Tyre'

Eh, maybe they just mistyped or got their verses mixed up.

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

The OP asked a thought provoking question and stated what he viewed. I fail to see how that is offensive other than you, personally, opting to get offended.

Your understanding of free will, of having a choice, is rather erred. Very much so. If I'm to go by Christian precepts, I should strive to not be bad, to do no evil. But in having been bestowed with free will, I can choose my own path. I can choose to ignore that precept and do as I will.

Aye, this seems more civilized now, thank you. It is your own choice, but we are advised to not sin. Lest face punishment from God (from my perspective. Again I will say that God did some things but only out of love)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If we were designed to not sin, we wouldn't have been given free will. We wouldn't have been given the ability to choose.

I personally, believe, as my faith does, that humanity has a good inclination and an evil inclination inside it.

We are capable of both good and evil. Sometimes in the same quantity. To deny this is to be blind to who we are and who we can be. It's a naive approach, tbh. Your father is correct.

[Draica]

Alright. Get ready for a very controversial topic (for some). Before I begin typing my thoughts i want you to keep in mind that:

1) I am a Deist/borderline Atheist
2) I do not want to "convert" anyone ( )
3) I do not wish to spite or troll people
4) Keep in mind I am refering only to the Abrahamic God.

My arguements are based from the Bible itself.

So,

We will begin with Genesis, the informant text of the beginning of the world. Here we learn that God created the angels to carry out his work basically. One of the first angels was Lucifer. Lucifer's name in Hebrew (הֵילֵל) means "the shining one, the morning star" and in Greek (Εωσφόρος) "bringer of dawn". Now Lucifer was an Archangel, but in a higher order from the others. He dwelled in front of the Seat of God and had the power to look in the Creator's Being. Basically he answered only to God.

We also learn that he was the strongest, wisest and most beautiful of all the angels. He meant perfection etc.

Aaaaaanyway, long story short, Lucifer was was pissed that angels, who were divine, immortal and created first by God were created as His slaves, while humans were favored with complete free will. Lucifer claimed that angels should be treated at least as well as humans and convinced many other angels of this as well.

God told them to shut up and obey, Lucifer launched a rebellion to overthrow the Tyrant who was denying angels their rights and lost.
He and his supporters where exiled from Heaven and ended up on Earth. Since history is written by the victors their dominion was renamed, "Hell" and the supporters of Lucifer labeled as "demons", and Lucifer himself was made into the epitome of evil.
But what exactly did Lucifer do that was evil? Let’s examine the evidence:

=====================================================================================================================================================

1) Convinced Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Counterpoint: God created Adam and Eve to be stupid and amusing pets. He built a nice zoo complete with landscaping, food, water, etc. But insisted we remain stupid and ignorant of the truth.

When Lucifer told Eve that knowledge is not evil and that Truth is a good thing, she used her free will and logic, (given by god) to come to the conclusion that eating the apple would be a good thing.

God flips out that his tyranic rule was broken, (today we call those who try to forcibly keep truth from their subjects dictators and tyrants) kicks out Adam and Eve and proclaims that their descendents will be punished for all eternity, (thus inventing original sin and showing himself to be a giant d*ck who holds insane grudges).

2) Goads God into the Story of Job.

Background: Job was a god fearing, righteous man who exalted god daily for his healthy family, bountiful crops and livestock and wonderful home.

God boasted to Lucifer of how much Job loved him. Lucifer said it’s because God had given Job such a sweet life. God proceeded to kill Jobs family, destroy his crops and livestock and demolish his home. Job still exalted God, thus proving his loyalty and faith.

Counterpoint: Kim Jong IL calls Barrack Obama and tells him of his top general, a man called Ming, who loves Kim Jong IL immensely and tells him everyday what a wonderful leader he is. Obama tells Kim it’s because he has bribed the general with a fine life, of a large house, riches, women and power.

Kim calls in General Ming and his family. Before the general Kim Jong IL shoots the man’s family, then announces that his bank account is gone and his home burned to the ground. General Ming drops to his knees and begs Kim Jong IL to forgive him for whatever he did to displease the dear leader. He exalts the Dictator like never before because he is convinced the tyrant has gone insane and will now kill him.

Kim Jong IL is pleased and calls Obama to gloat that General Ming has proven his loyalty despite Kim destroying his life.

Replace Kim Jong IL with God, General Ming with Job and Obama with Lucifer and you have the story of Job. Now I ask you who is the bad guy in that story? Obama? Or Kim Jong IL?

3) Lucifer tries to get Jesus to save himself rather than be crucified.

Now let’s look at the story of Jesus dieing for the sins of mankind more closely.

Jesus was sent by his dad to be tortured to death by humans because the first humans had used their god given free will to choose knowledge over ignorance, thus disobeying God.

God, the eternal prick that will soon be shown to be, held a grudge for millennia against the descendents of Adam and Eve, until one day he decides he can forgive humans, but only if he stages a dramatic murder of his son at the hands of the same humans he can now forgive.

Rather than just declare humans forgiven, he decides to stage a snuff show that he will lord over humanity for eternity, guilting us into obeying him, (we have too because Jesus died for our sins at the command of his insane father).

For pointing out the insanity of god’s actions and telling Jesus he doesn’t have to die and shouldn't, Lucifer is called evil. Where in the Bible does Lucifer ever kill anyone or do anything we would consider evil? I can’t think of any.

=====================================================================================================================================================

But do you know who is the biggest as*hole and bloodthirsty murderer? God. Let's examine the evidence:
a) Kicking out Adam and Eve from paradise for eating from the fruit of knowledge. As explained previously, knowledge is something all should strive for and not shun because their dictator tells them to avoid it.
b) Tower of Babel.

At one time all people spoke the same language. They decided to get together and build a tower so high it could reach Heaven.

Soooo, God was so angered, by what he saw as arrogance by the people, that he smashed the tower and scatted them all over the earth, making them speak different languages so that they could never again understand each other enough to work on another tower.

Note that the misunderstanding the results from different languages results in countless wars that kill many tens of millions of people.

Counterpoint: You work in Japan, your toddler child who lives in New York tells you he is building a boat with his friends that he will use to cross the oceans and reach Tokyo.

You fly into a rage, smash his boat, and then kidnap your child’s friends and leave them at different end s of the city and make each child unable to understand, (inevitably leading to misunderstanding and hatred) other children. You are left secure in the thought that your child will never be so arrogant to try to build a homemade raft to circle the earth again.

Now what would we think of such a parent? We would put their child in protective service and probably put the parent in jail or at least in a psychiatric hospital because they are obviously crazy and in need of professional help.

But when God does it, it's suddenly ok and is the fault of the kids for attempting to work together to accomplish an impossible task?

=====================================================================================================================================================

4) Noah’s Ark and the flood.

God gave humans free will to decide for ourselves whether or not to obey him. Most people chose not to. So God decided to kill everyone on earth, including millions of innocent babies, as well as every plant and animal.

He then decides to spare one family, a family that does obey him, because then the descendents will be more likely to obey him.

Now, when god speaks to Noah, Noah is aware of whom God is, because obviously some people do believe in god and obey him. The millions of god fearing and god obeying people who are not part of Noah’s family? Well screw them too, they can die with all the innocent babies God suddenly feels like drowning.

When God is done drowning the world, (why the need to kill all those animals, why not just send a plague to target the wicked, thus sparing all the faithful and the babies?) he promises to never drown it again, (though he could destroy it in some other way).

WAIT A SECOND! God commits the greatest act of genocide in history, kills more people than Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined and then we are told that Lucifer is the evil one?

5) Killing the first born of Egypt

So the Israelites are forced into exile, go to Egypt where they are enslaved by the Egyptians. God sends Moses to free his people. Pharaoh refuses and orders the first born son of each Israeli family killed. Before that can be carried out, God sends the angel of death to kill the first born of every Egyptian family. Not just Pharaoh’s son, but every first born son in Egypt. This act of genocide is commemorated by the holiday of Passover.

Why is god punishing innocent people, many of them children for the barbarity of one man?

And why is it ok when he does it?

6) Ordering genocide in his name

Specifically I am referring to ordering the Israelites, now freed from Egypt, to attack and kill the Canaanites, including every man, women and child, even the dogs!
Not only does god love to commit genocide but apparently he loves to make us humans do it too!

Of course, some religious folks will say, "Any thing god does is by definition moral, evening mass murder or ordering mass murder in his name".

Let me get this straight. Killing scores of innocent men, women and children is ok, as long as God told you too? Isn’t that what Osama Bin Laden says he’s doing?

Or what about the 12 Crusades that were launched in the Middle Ages? Those were ordered by the Popes who are supposedly infallible because they have a direct line to God.

6) Allowing rape, slavery, exploitation of women and all the other nasty shit that's in "his good book".

In the bible, you’ll find examples of rape, incest, slavery and massive chauvinism all justified. Oh and let's not forget the story of Abraham, ordered to sacrifice his own son. Lucky for him god chose to send an angel to stay Abraham’s hand at the last instant but really, why not just look into the man's soul to determine the depth of his faith, isn't God suppose to be all knowing? Must he really order his follows to kill their own children to prove something to him?

=====================================================================================================================================================

--> So examining the evidence from the Bible itself we have a god, acting as a genocidal tyrant who gives us free will and the choice to obey or not, then kills us en masse for choosing wrong
vs
Lucifer, the angel who's only sin was to disagree with God and who thinks that all sentient beings have an inherent right to self determination and should use logic to think for themselves, (the basis of western civilization).

Now honestly, tell me... honestly:

Who's the good guy and who’s the bad guy here? Seems pretty obvious to me.
No wonder that the christian clergy in the Middle Ages kept the "commoners" uneducated about anything, especially in this situation about the Bible text and meanings.

My goodness. I did not expect this to be so well done. Props to you, man. I mean, I'm still a devote Christian, but really well done. That's some VERY compelling evidence. Isn't the name for this "The 'O' fights" or something?

You're devout yet you're saying the slander being used against God is good?

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

[Menassa]

Thereby putting humanity in a sinful state, no?

Which required God to send Jesus to die?

To die to save us from our sins. God did not like that but he only did it out of his love for us

Is that you agreeing with me.

I personally, believe, as my faith does, that humanity has a good inclination and an evil inclination inside it.

We are capable of both good and evil. Sometimes in the same quantity. To deny this is to be blind to who we are and who we can be. It's a naive approach, tbh. Your father is correct.

*faith.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Thereby putting humanity in a sinful state, no?

Which required God to send Jesus to die?

To die to save us from our sins. God did not like that but he only did it out of his love for us

Eh, maybe they just mistyped or got their verses mixed up.



The OP asked a thought provoking question and stated what he viewed. I fail to see how that is offensive other than you, personally, opting to get offended.

Your understanding of free will, of having a choice, is rather erred. Very much so. If I'm to go by Christian precepts, I should strive to not be bad, to do no evil. But in having been bestowed with free will, I can choose my own path. I can choose to ignore that precept and do as I will.

Aye, this seems more civilized now, thank you. It is your own choice, but we are advised to not sin. Lest face punishment from God (from my perspective. Again I will say that God did some things but only out of love)

Advised to not do something and being designed, as you claimed, to not do something are two different things.

[Maharo]

To die to save us from our sins. God did not like that but he only did it out of his love for us

Is that you agreeing with me.

We are capable of both good and evil. Sometimes in the same quantity. To deny this is to be blind to who we are and who we can be. It's a naive approach, tbh. Your father is correct.

*faith.

Yes, but I still don't like this topic. Very touchy for me

To die to save us from our sins. God did not like that but he only did it out of his love for us
Aye, this seems more civilized now, thank you. It is your own choice, but we are advised to not sin. Lest face punishment from God (from my perspective. Again I will say that God did some things but only out of love)

Advised to not do something and being designed, as you claimed, to not do something are two different things.

Yes they are, I'm just saying that we were ORIGINALLY designed to not sin but because of the original sin, we're now ADVISED to not sin

[Menassa]

Is that you agreeing with me.


*faith.

Yes, but I still don't like this topic. Very touchy for me

Why bring it up then?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Is that you agreeing with me.


*faith.

Yes, but I still don't like this topic. Very touchy for me

Advised to not do something and being designed, as you claimed, to not do something are two different things.

Yes they are, I'm just saying that we were ORIGINALLY designed to not sin but because of the original sin, we're now ADVISED to not sin

As soon as you give creatures the ability to choose, design goes to shit.

[Maharo]

Yes, but I still don't like this topic. Very touchy for me

Why bring it up then?

Hey I didn't start this thread. I was just really disappointed to see this

[Menassa]

Why bring it up then?

Hey I didn't start this thread. I was just really disappointed to see this

But, you did respond to it.

[Maharo]

Yes, but I still don't like this topic. Very touchy for me
Yes they are, I'm just saying that we were ORIGINALLY designed to not sin but because of the original sin, we're now ADVISED to not sin

As soon as you give creatures the ability to choose, design goes to shit.

Hm, can't argue with that. Also for the record: God didn't design Humans to be his little play things, he designed us to take care of the creations he made

[Maharo]

Hey I didn't start this thread. I was just really disappointed to see this

But, you did respond to it.

Peer pressure, also just wanted to speak my mind. FREEDOM

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As soon as you give creatures the ability to choose, design goes to shit.

Hm, can't argue with that. Also for the record: God didn't design Humans to be his little play things, he designed us to take care of the creations he made

I don't know why we were created (if we were created, presuming there's a Creator), I don't know if there's a god.

[Maharo]

Hm, can't argue with that. Also for the record: God didn't design Humans to be his little play things, he designed us to take care of the creations he made

I don't know why we were created (if we were created, presuming there's a Creator), I don't know if there's a god.

You know who created us? ALIENS (jk)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't know why we were created (if we were created, presuming there's a Creator), I don't know if there's a god.

You know who created us? ALIENS (jk)

I lean towards the theory that I sprouted from a toadstool. ;}

[Maharo]

You know who created us? ALIENS (jk)

I lean towards the theory that I sprouted from a toadstool. ;}

The shrooms, man. Woah

[The Alma Mater]

Again I will say that God did some things but only out of love)

An excuse often heard from abusers. "I am only hitting you because I love you". "I am only killing your brother because I love you". "I am only drowning every man, woman, child and cute furry little animal on the planet except yourselves because I love you".

At what point would you stop believing that rather lame excuse ?

[Sun Wukong]

וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

There's no mention of Satan in the entire Garden story.
The idea that Satan was the serpent in the Garden is really only found in the New Testament.
The Bible describes elsewhere that snakes attack by biting heals, between the seed of woman that is humans. And the seed of snakes there will be enmity.

Case in point, Indiana Jones.

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?

Does anyone need to be?

I mean, God does punish all snakes forever because of its actions (admittedly "you shall crawl on your belly all of your days" isn't much of a punishment for a snake, but still), and that would make even less sense if the snake was being manipulated.