What if Lucifer is the good guy and God is the bad one?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

There's no mention of Satan in the entire Garden story.
The idea that Satan was the serpent in the Garden is really only found in the New Testament.
The Bible describes elsewhere that snakes attack by biting heals, between the seed of woman that is humans. And the seed of snakes there will be enmity.

Case in point, Indiana Jones.

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?

Jeff Dunham.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

There's no mention of Satan in the entire Garden story.
The idea that Satan was the serpent in the Garden is really only found in the New Testament.
The Bible describes elsewhere that snakes attack by biting heals, between the seed of woman that is humans. And the seed of snakes there will be enmity.

Case in point, Indiana Jones.

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?

The talking snake is his own person...or snake, thank you very much.

[Galloism]

Let me ask you a question. You believe all our decisions were foreknown, including our parents, grandparents, etc.

We're Adam and Eve's decisions foreknown before their creation by God?

I don't believe in predestination, I simply read up on the Free Will debate.

As for Adam and Eve's decision, I believe that if the Biblical account were true, God did foreknow what they would choose, but choose not to intervene, thereby allowing them to exercise free will.

So, before building Adam and Eve, before making one cell, God knew all their choices, including their children's choices and so on?

I just want to make sure I understand.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

I don't believe in predestination, I simply read up on the Free Will debate.

As for Adam and Eve's decision, I believe that if the Biblical account were true, God did foreknow what they would choose, but choose not to intervene, thereby allowing them to exercise free will.

So, before building Adam and Eve, before making one cell, God knew all their choices, including their children's choices and so on?

I just want to make sure I understand.

That is the consequence of omniscience, yes.

[Menassa]

וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

There's no mention of Satan in the entire Garden story.
The idea that Satan was the serpent in the Garden is really only found in the New Testament.
The Bible describes elsewhere that snakes attack by biting heals, between the seed of woman that is humans. And the seed of snakes there will be enmity.

Case in point, Indiana Jones.

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?

The actual talking snake.
And before you go and claim how that's really weird and it makes more sense that it was Satan controlling the snake (if you were going to.)

In the Bible, the Sun stops, a sea splits, and fire-ice rain on an entire civilization.

[Galloism]

So, before building Adam and Eve, before making one cell, God knew all their choices, including their children's choices and so on?

I just want to make sure I understand.

That is the consequence of omniscience, yes.

So, he created people he knew would fail. He could have changed one DNA sequence (theoretically speaking, of course) to make mankind succeed in serving him, but he deliberately created mankind to fail.

Is this an accurate summation?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

That is the consequence of omniscience, yes.

So, he created people he knew would fail. He could have changed one DNA sequence (theoretically speaking, of course) to make mankind succeed in serving him, but he deliberately created mankind to fail.

Is this an accurate summation?

That is an accurate summation, and one of the reasons why I reject the Free Will Defence to vindicate God's way to man.

[Galloism]

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?

The actual talking snake.
And before you go and claim how that's really weird and it makes more sense that it was Satan controlling the snake (if you were going to.)

In the Bible, the Sun stops, a sea splits, and fire-ice rain on an entire civilization.

Ok I really don't have an answer to that. It's also really late and I'm tired.

... but really in every one of those other examples it was divine intervention.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?

The actual talking snake.
And before you go and claim how that's really weird and it makes more sense that it was Satan controlling the snake (if you were going to.)

In the Bible, the Sun stops, a sea splits, and fire-ice rain on an entire civilization.

Yes, but we are not supposed to take any of those literally.

[Galloism]

So, he created people he knew would fail. He could have changed one DNA sequence (theoretically speaking, of course) to make mankind succeed in serving him, but he deliberately created mankind to fail.

Is this an accurate summation?

That is an accurate summation, and one of the reasons why I reject the Free Will Defence to vindicate God's way to man.

So God is a sadistic bastard.

You guys get more attractive all the time. Have you ever talked to Dawkins?

[Menassa]

The actual talking snake.
And before you go and claim how that's really weird and it makes more sense that it was Satan controlling the snake (if you were going to.)

In the Bible, the Sun stops, a sea splits, and fire-ice rain on an entire civilization.

Ok I really don't have an answer to that. It's also really late and I'm tired.

... but really in every one of those other examples it was divine intervention.

If God could make sky-food that feeds 3 and a half million people, I'm sure he could create a talking snake.

Lailah Tov my friend, if you do end up going to sleep.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

That is an accurate summation, and one of the reasons why I reject the Free Will Defence to vindicate God's way to man.

So God is a sadistic bastard.

You guys get more attractive all the time. Have you ever talked to Dawkins?

Again, this applies equally to Christians, Jews, and Moslems, you are not willing to 'buy it', but you have no arguments against it, and I hold that the free will defence is fundamentally flawed, and God cannot be 'justified', should he even exist at all, which there is no evidence that he should.

[Menassa]

The actual talking snake.
And before you go and claim how that's really weird and it makes more sense that it was Satan controlling the snake (if you were going to.)

In the Bible, the Sun stops, a sea splits, and fire-ice rain on an entire civilization.

Yes, but we are not supposed to take any of those literally.

1: That's not entirely true.
2: Then don't take the talking snake literally either.

[Draica]

Hi, apologist here. I'l answer your copy-pasted questions shortly, but this one interests me:

6) Ordering genocide in his name

Specifically I am referring to ordering the Israelites, now freed from Egypt, to attack and kill the Canaanites, including every man, women and child, even the dogs!
Not only does god love to commit genocide but apparently he loves to make us humans do it too!

Of course, some religious folks will say, "Any thing god does is by definition moral, evening mass murder or ordering mass murder in his name".

Let me get this straight. Killing scores of innocent men, women and children is ok, as long as God told you too? Isn’t that what Osama Bin Laden says he’s doing?

Or what about the 12 Crusades that were launched in the Middle Ages? Those were ordered by the Popes who are supposedly infallible because they have a direct line to God.

Alright, now let's break this down.

Specifically I am referring to ordering the Israelites, now freed from Egypt, to attack and kill the Canaanites

Yeah, the caanites who were doing child sacrifices, having sex with animals, etc.

, including every man, women and child, even the dogs!
Not only does god love to commit genocide but apparently he loves to make us humans do it too!

1. The israelites were ordered by God to do so, not forced. They failed and exactly what God said would happen happened. (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.

2. Those children were victims of child sacrifices, they were seeing beastiality and other cruel acts being commited. Who else knows what kind of terror they were in? Does this justify taking their lives? Well, in a way, he didn't take their life, he gave them new life. They were covered by the blood and were sent to heaven right away (2 Samuel 12:22-23; Mark 10:14-15; Matthew 18:2-4).

So your ignorance speaks volumes, but let's go on.

Let me get this straight. Killing scores of innocent men, women and children is ok, as long as God told you too? Isn’t that what Osama Bin Laden says he’s doing?

1. In the eyes of God no one is innocent.

2. Men and women? You mean the grown ups who were participating in animal sacrifices and trying to breed with animals? I doubt that hardly qualifies for "innocence."

3. It is a strawman to compare Osama Bin Laden, a delusional terrorist, to an Intelligent designer who knew what could happen should this threat go unchecked.

Let's just break this down again, God warned these people. The OP is making it seem like "OH, GOD JUST RANDOMLY TOLD THEM TO GO KILL THE CAANITES" No, they were warned. Here are multiple examples:


God repeatedly sent Moses and Aaron to the leaders of Egypt with a message, and repeatedly relented when Pharoah asked Moses to appeal to God (Exodus 7 – 10)
God sent Jonah to people of Nineveh, with a message of judgement. The Ninevites repented and appealed to God, and God relented the punishment. (Jonah 3:10)
A eunuch from Ethiopia came to Jerusalem to worship, indicating that he already knew about the true God before he came on the trip. He also had a copy of Isaiah he was studying (Acts 8:27ff).
Rahab the prostitute from Jericho, a city in Canaan, knew about God and appealed to Him, which resulted in her life being spared and living a long life (Josh. 2:9ff; 6:25)
People from Israel went to surrounding countries, intermarried with them, informing them of the true God. One instance was the family of Ruth from Moab, who told them about God (Ruth 1) and when Ruth worshipped the true God, her life was spared and she was blessed by Boaz (Ruth 4:13-14)
God gave military victories to other nations, such as Syria (2 Kings 5:1). God healed Naaman, from Syria, when he obeys God’s messenger (2 Kings 5:14)
Isaiah gave messages about Babylon (Ch. 13-14, 21), Moab (Ch. 15-16), Syria (Ch. 17), land beyond Ethiopia (Ch. 18), Egypt (Ch. 19-20), and Edom & Arabia (Ch. 21).
Jeremiah gave God’s messages to Egypt (Ch.46), Philistia (Ch.47), Moab (Ch. 48), Ammon, Edom, Syria, & others, (Ch. 49), and Babylon (Ch. 50-51).
Ezekiel gave messages to Ammon, Moab, Edom, & Philistia (Ch. 25), and Egypt (Ch. 29 – 32)
Daniel and his three friends taught about God and gave God’s messages in Babylon, to the point that the king of Babylon gave honor to God (Daniel 2:47; 3:28-29; 4:34-37)
Joel gave messages to the people of Syria, Philistia, Phoenicia, Edom, Ammon, and Moab (Joel 1:3-2:3)
Micah was a prophet with a message to both the Samaritans and Israel, and to all people on the earth (Micah 1:1-2)
Zephaniah gave a message to many people of Canaan and surrounding areas (Zephaniah Ch. 2)
Simon the magician, from Samaria in Canaan, appealed to God and was received, even though his heart was not entirely right (Acts 8:9-24
Jesus repeatedly had compassion on various people from Canaan (Luke 10:33-37; 17:16-19; John 4; Matt. 15:22-28; Mark 5)


Many caanites were granted mercy, as stated. Many people related to caanites or from caanan were spared. So the entire caaanite people weren't slaughtered.

If God is only and solely love and morality, then one can never ever trust God to answer when we call on Him for help. If God just loves everyone regardless of what they do, then there is no help for those who are abused. There is no recourse… ever. And existence is purely meaningless and without any moral basis (which you believe God should up-hold). In the caanite society, killing babies was acceptable. To be honest, it was for the best that the children didn't have to suffer under that worldly disgusting society of the caanite people. They went straight to heaven.

Now me personally? If I was an omniscient all powerful God I could find some alternatives to save the children. However, I do not understand God, but I trust that he did it with good intent and that is all I can say.

[Straughn]

Hi, apologist here.

Wow, this is refreshing candor today.
Hi.

[Straughn]

Also, per Nana y Gallo ....
i have actually personally spoken with both Dawkins AND Dunham, though not in the same context (although that would've been AWESOME)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I found this and seeing as there are people of different religious traditions present, maybe this article could clarify some things regarding the character of Satan in the Christian mythos.

An interesting read.

[Menassa]

I found this and seeing as there are people of different religious traditions present, maybe this article could clarify some things regarding the character of Satan in the Christian mythos.

An interesting read.

Again, the Isaiah 14 issue, and I don't even know what Wiki was thinking with their explanation of Ezekiel... read that one again...

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I found this and seeing as there are people of different religious traditions present, maybe this article could clarify some things regarding the character of Satan in the Christian mythos.

An interesting read.

Again, the Isaiah 14 issue, and I don't even know what Wiki was thinking with their explanation of Ezekiel... read that one again...

Menassa, I linked to the article for the purposes stated. Neither stance can be a 100% proven as ultimate truth.

[Menassa]

Again, the Isaiah 14 issue, and I don't even know what Wiki was thinking with their explanation of Ezekiel... read that one again...

Menassa, I linked to the article for the purposes stated. Neither stance can be a 100% proven as ultimate truth.

No, but I mean this:

Ezekiel 28 is thought by some[who?] to be referring metaphorically to Satan, rather than to the king of Babylon.

Didn't we say it was Tyre?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Menassa, I linked to the article for the purposes stated. Neither stance can be a 100% proven as ultimate truth.

No, but I mean this:

Ezekiel 28 is thought by some[who?] to be referring metaphorically to Satan, rather than to the king of Babylon.

Didn't we say it was Tyre?

Apparently not. Apparently, that verse is interpreted as referring to Satan.

[Menassa]

No, but I mean this:



Didn't we say it was Tyre?

Apparently not. Apparently, that verse is interpreted as referring to Satan.

The point I'm focusing on is that wiki says 'rather than the king of Babylon'

Instead of: 'rather than the king of Tyre'

[Maharo]

You clearly do not understand the bible. Don't just go around and post something offensive like this.

What exactly is so offensive about the OP, pray tell?

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

[Menassa]

What exactly is so offensive about the OP, pray tell?

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

[Maharo]

Well he called God a killer. For starters. I know he did some things but only out of good intent. He also states that God gave human freedom to think of anything. This is a wrong misconception of freedom, as we are designed not to sin, just to do good to others. Also Hod sent Jesus to save us from our sins, Now Who would not want that?

Humans are designed not to sin? If that is true, what do you believe then is original sin?

It is not made by God. Original sin is caused by Satan who deceived Eve to bite the fruit of knowledge.