What if Lucifer is the good guy and God is the bad one?

[Galloism]

You don't see how total exercised omniscience and free will are incompatible?

Free will requires that we have the ability to choose Target or Wal-Mart as we drive up between them. If an omniscient being already knows our choices before we make them, and by force of the universe he cannot be wrong, we cannot make a last minute choice to go to Target, unless he already knew we would change our mind.

In effect, its like watching a movie you've already seen. All choices have been made, and we have no ability to choose different, even if we wanted to.

You were predestined to make that argument thousands of years ago before you were born. I was predestined to roll my eyes.

Free will requires teh ability to choose between Target or Walmart, if an omniscient being knows which choice we will make, he does not cause us to make that choice, and his knowledge is created by us choosing that choice. We have complete control and agency over that choice. We can go to Target at anytime because there is no barrier blocking us from doing so, but we will go to Walmart.

In effect, watching a film you have already seen, you know the choices each character will make, but they are still free to make it, they simply won't deviate from what you know they will make. There is nothing impeding them from doing otherwise, your knowledge has no effect on their choice.

In short, there is no argument here.

Basically, you're telling us that every choice forever has already been made, but we're still making the choices we were known to make before us.

We choose the exact narrow path through life we were predestined to make long before we were born.

And somehow, that's free will. Not buying it. If our choices cannot branch, and could not before we ever even made our first one, we have a level of choice comparable with a Hello World program.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You do know that ''Morning Star'' is one of the title Satan had/has, right?

Morning Star/Lucifer is only mentioned once, and is clearly referring to Nebuchadnezzar, and, in the context it makes sense, because as a Morning Star, or Venus, he shines shortly before being drowned in the greater glory of the Sun (God).

The mention occurs only once in Hebrew scripture. In Christianity, it is mentioned more than once: Isaiah 14:12 is linked with with Luke 10:18.

[Menassa]

Only based upon that verse out of context.
As well isn't Jesus described as the morning star?


I find it hard to believe that with no mention Ezekiel switches from talking about the King of Tyre to talking about Satan.

As well if you believe nothing about Satan those verses don't lend to a discussion of him, if you believe Satan is a fallen angel however, they do.

Therein lies the problem. We come from different traditions, and although Satan is seen as an adversary under God's control in Judaism, he is not seen as such in the Christian tradition.

Aye, the validity of each tradition however is a different discussion entirely.

As for Jesus being the Morning Star, I have never heard him being referred to as such, but I can't say for certain if it's true or not.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles ... satan.html

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

So God, willingly allows Satan to roam around and do Evil?

God would have allow, or permit, it to occur, yes.

You don't get to be omnipowerful and then say something is outside your power.

I fail to see how that's any different than God directly controlling the evil.

I personally would rather have God control evil than some other being, I think King David would agree with me.

2 Samuel 24:14
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands."

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Therein lies the problem. We come from different traditions, and although Satan is seen as an adversary under God's control in Judaism, he is not seen as such in the Christian tradition.

Aye, the validity of each tradition however is a different discussion entirely.

Which gives both traditions' stances on Satan equal validity in the eyes of the believers.

[Galloism]

Therein lies the problem. We come from different traditions, and although Satan is seen as an adversary under God's control in Judaism, he is not seen as such in the Christian tradition.

Aye, the validity of each tradition however is a different discussion entirely.

As for Jesus being the Morning Star, I have never heard him being referred to as such, but I can't say for certain if it's true or not.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles ... satan.html

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

God would have allow, or permit, it to occur, yes.

You don't get to be omnipowerful and then say something is outside your power.

I fail to see how that's any different than God directly controlling the evil.

I personally would rather have God control evil than some other being, I think King David would agree with me.

2 Samuel 24:14
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands."

So, you feel all the suffering humans have wrought on each other over the millennia is no different than god doing so himself?

[Menassa]

Morning Star/Lucifer is only mentioned once, and is clearly referring to Nebuchadnezzar, and, in the context it makes sense, because as a Morning Star, or Venus, he shines shortly before being drowned in the greater glory of the Sun (God).

The mention occurs only once in Hebrew scripture. In Christianity, it is mentioned more than once: Isaiah 14:12 is linked with with Luke 10:18.

Satan being called Lucifer occurs in Christian Scripture?

[Menassa]

Aye, the validity of each tradition however is a different discussion entirely.


http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles ... satan.html

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."



I fail to see how that's any different than God directly controlling the evil.

I personally would rather have God control evil than some other being, I think King David would agree with me.

2 Samuel 24:14
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands."

So, you feel all the suffering humans have wrought on each other over the millennia is no different than god doing so himself?

No, Isaiah tells you that.

I'm very sure if God wanted us to believe that some other being controls evil, he wouldn't have said that he does.

But that's just the Jewish scriptures my friend.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Basically, you're telling us that every choice forever has already been made, but we're still making the choices we were known to make before us.

We choose the exact narrow path through life we were predestined to make long before we were born.

And somehow, that's free will. Not buying it. If our choices cannot branch, and could not before we ever even made our first one, we have a level of choice comparable with a Hello World program.

Basically, I am telling you you have no idea how free will works, or what free will entails.

When nothing impedes us or coerce us into doing a certain action, that action is free. If that action is foreknown, all it means is that we will do that and no other, though we still have the ability to do another action.

It is not a hard idea to fanthom, and it is probably simpler to fanthom than the ideas of Free Will flying about in the Metaphysical debates over Compatibilism, Incompatibilism, Libertarianism, Determinism, etc.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Aye, the validity of each tradition however is a different discussion entirely.


http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles ... satan.html

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."



I fail to see how that's any different than God directly controlling the evil.

I personally would rather have God control evil than some other being, I think King David would agree with me.

2 Samuel 24:14
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands."

So, you feel all the suffering humans have wrought on each other over the millennia is no different than god doing so himself?

God brings about evil to existence, we are the one that choose to do evil to each other.

[Galloism]

Basically, you're telling us that every choice forever has already been made, but we're still making the choices we were known to make before us.

We choose the exact narrow path through life we were predestined to make long before we were born.

And somehow, that's free will. Not buying it. If our choices cannot branch, and could not before we ever even made our first one, we have a level of choice comparable with a Hello World program.

Basically, I am telling you you have no idea how free will works, or what free will entails.

When nothing impedes us or coerce us into doing a certain action, that action is free. If that action is foreknown, all it means is that we will do that and no other, though we still have the ability to do another action.

It is not a hard idea to fanthom, and it is probably simpler to fanthom than the ideas of Free Will flying about in the Metaphysical debates over Compatibilism, Incompatibilism, Libertarianism, Determinism, etc.

Let me ask you a question. You believe all our decisions were foreknown, including our parents, grandparents, etc.

We're Adam and Eve's decisions foreknown before their creation by God?

[Republic of Greater America]

Lucifer and God are my bitches.

[Menassa]

While debating the origins of Lucifer and God's relationship with Evil might be the point of this thread.
I don't think Biblical free will is.

However in relationship to God's malice... it just may be.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The mention occurs only once in Hebrew scripture. In Christianity, it is mentioned more than once: Isaiah 14:12 is linked with with Luke 10:18.

Satan being called Lucifer occurs in Christian Scripture?

Yes.

in the KJV, Lucifer is interchangeable with Satan as a name.

[Galloism]

So, you feel all the suffering humans have wrought on each other over the millennia is no different than god doing so himself?

No, Isaiah tells you that.

I'm very sure if God wanted us to believe that some other being controls evil, he wouldn't have said that he does.

But that's just the Jewish scriptures my friend.

And I'm very certain that if Satan was actually a loyal servant, God wouldn't prophecy his destruction.

[Menassa]

Satan being called Lucifer occurs in Christian Scripture?

Yes.

in the KJV, Lucifer is interchangeable with Satan as a name.

But is that congruent with the original Greek?

The KJV is known for not being correct, and rather biased...

[Menassa]

No, Isaiah tells you that.

I'm very sure if God wanted us to believe that some other being controls evil, he wouldn't have said that he does.

But that's just the Jewish scriptures my friend.

And I'm very certain that if Satan was actually a loyal servant, God wouldn't prophecy his destruction.

Where has God done this?

[Galloism]

And I'm very certain that if Satan was actually a loyal servant, God wouldn't prophecy his destruction.

Where has God done this?

Genesis 3:15. Very first prophecy in the Bible.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yes.

in the KJV, Lucifer is interchangeable with Satan as a name.

But is that congruent with the original Greek?

The KJV is known for not being correct, and rather biased...

Honestly, Lucifer was taken from the Latin Vulgate. In modern recent translations, Lucifer has been edited out in favor of ''morning star''.

The Vulgate uses the same word in contexts where it clearly has no reference to a fallen angel: 2 Peter 1:19 (meaning "morning star"), Job 11:17 ("the light of the morning"), Job 38:32 ("the signs of the zodiac") and Psalms 110:3 ("the dawn"). To speak of the morning star, ''lucifer'' is not the only expression that the Vulgate uses: three times it uses stella matutina: Sirach 50:6 (referring to the actual morning star), and Revelation 2:28...¹

[Menassa]

Where has God done this?

Genesis 3:15. Very first prophecy in the Bible.

It takes some subjective belief in order to state that this is talking about Satan, without the influence of the New Testament it's virtually impossible.

But in Genesis 4:7 God says humanity has the ability to rule over sin.

[Galloism]

Genesis 3:15. Very first prophecy in the Bible.

It takes some subjective belief in order to state that this is talking about Satan, without the influence of the New Testament it's virtually impossible.

But in Genesis 4:7 God says humanity has the ability to rule over sin.

Um, ok?

Not sure how that relates. God said that the seed of the woman would kill the serpent. The serpent was the mouthpiece of satan. Whoever or whatever you believe the seed to be, death against Satan was clearly promised for what he did.

[Maharo]

You clearly do not understand the bible. Don't just go around and post something offensive like this.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You clearly do not understand the bible. Don't just go around and post something offensive like this.

What exactly is so offensive about the OP, pray tell?

[Menassa]

It takes some subjective belief in order to state that this is talking about Satan, without the influence of the New Testament it's virtually impossible.

But in Genesis 4:7 God says humanity has the ability to rule over sin.

Um, ok?

Not sure how that relates. God said that the seed of the woman would kill the serpent. The serpent was the mouthpiece of satan. Whoever or whatever you believe the seed to be, death against Satan was clearly promised for what he did.

וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

There's no mention of Satan in the entire Garden story.
The idea that Satan was the serpent in the Garden is really only found in the New Testament.
The Bible describes elsewhere that snakes attack by biting heals, between the seed of woman that is humans. And the seed of snakes there will be enmity.

Case in point, Indiana Jones.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Basically, I am telling you you have no idea how free will works, or what free will entails.

When nothing impedes us or coerce us into doing a certain action, that action is free. If that action is foreknown, all it means is that we will do that and no other, though we still have the ability to do another action.

It is not a hard idea to fanthom, and it is probably simpler to fanthom than the ideas of Free Will flying about in the Metaphysical debates over Compatibilism, Incompatibilism, Libertarianism, Determinism, etc.

Let me ask you a question. You believe all our decisions were foreknown, including our parents, grandparents, etc.

We're Adam and Eve's decisions foreknown before their creation by God?

I don't believe in predestination, I simply read up on the Free Will debate.

As for Adam and Eve's decision, I believe that if the Biblical account were true, God did foreknow what they would choose, but choose not to intervene, thereby allowing them to exercise free will.

[Galloism]

Um, ok?

Not sure how that relates. God said that the seed of the woman would kill the serpent. The serpent was the mouthpiece of satan. Whoever or whatever you believe the seed to be, death against Satan was clearly promised for what he did.

וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

There's no mention of Satan in the entire Garden story.
The idea that Satan was the serpent in the Garden is really only found in the New Testament.
The Bible describes elsewhere that snakes attack by biting heals, between the seed of woman that is humans. And the seed of snakes there will be enmity.

Case in point, Indiana Jones.

Bwahahahahahahaha. You totally went for the Indiana jones reference. Bravo. Well done.

No, Satan is not named. So, who was controlling the talking snake then?