What if Lucifer is the good guy and God is the bad one?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

*shrug*

How you see my God is of no consequence to me my friend.

As a being who is Omnibenevolent I would think evil to be necessary... but that's a larger topic.

See, I don't see God that way. You say you do. I'm merely summing up the logical conclusion to the arguments you made in this thread.

Satan as a rebellious enemy of God makes far more sense, is scripturaloy congruent, leaves God holding the moral high ground, and makes the prophecies regarding Satan's destruction make far more sense. A god that says, "good job doing my will, now I'm going to destroy you" makes no fucking sense unless he's backstabbing his faithful servant.

Undoubtedly, that's another evil act.

It's flat out impossible to believe a god is loving when he hires someone to trip you up just so he can punish you.

Only, one cannot accept God as creator of all, unless one is prepared to accept that he is the creator of evil, and if Satan is merely a renegade element, then it raises the uncomfortable question of why he created him knowing that he will rebel, and why he let him do what he does, when he has all the power in the world to stop him.

[Galloism]

Just pointing out the massive disconnect here.

As I was asking a second ago, Satan had a choice. When he decided to oppose god, he did so wittingly. He chose to. Could he then have become a servant, even when his actions weren't god's fault?

A servant who rebels against his master is no longer a servant. He's a free man. How that works out for him is a matter of circumstance.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As I was asking a second ago, Satan had a choice. When he decided to oppose god, he did so wittingly. He chose to. Could he then have become a servant, even when his actions weren't god's fault?

A servant who rebels against his master is no longer a servant. He's a free man. How that works out for him is a matter of circumstance.

That could've been part of god's plan all along... After all, Satan had a choice.

[Galloism]

See, I don't see God that way. You say you do. I'm merely summing up the logical conclusion to the arguments you made in this thread.

Satan as a rebellious enemy of God makes far more sense, is scripturaloy congruent, leaves God holding the moral high ground, and makes the prophecies regarding Satan's destruction make far more sense. A god that says, "good job doing my will, now I'm going to destroy you" makes no fucking sense unless he's backstabbing his faithful servant.

Undoubtedly, that's another evil act.

It's flat out impossible to believe a god is loving when he hires someone to trip you up just so he can punish you.

Only, one cannot accept God as creator of all, unless one is prepared to accept that he is the creator of evil, and if Satan is merely a renegade element, then it raises the uncomfortable question of why he created him knowing that he will rebel, and why he let him do what he does, when he has all the power in the world to stop him.

What makes you believe he exercised his power of foresight and knew he was going to rebel?

Regarding the second part: Satan used his knowledge of God's sense of justice against him. I have and will never question Satan's intelligence in this regard. He is clearly wise. He is certainly evil, but also wise.

[Galloism]

A servant who rebels against his master is no longer a servant. He's a free man. How that works out for him is a matter of circumstance.

That could've been part of god's plan all along... After all, Satan had a choice.

If God chose to foresee his choice, then he never really had a choice at all.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That could've been part of god's plan all along... After all, Satan had a choice.

If God chose to foresee his choice, then he never really had a choice at all.

Don't we also have choices?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

That could've been part of god's plan all along... After all, Satan had a choice.

If God chose to foresee his choice, then he never really had a choice at all.

Patently false!

If God forsaw his choice, and he still made that choice, so long as God did not impede him, he always had the ability to do otherwise, even if he will not do otherwise.

[Galloism]

If God chose to foresee his choice, then he never really had a choice at all.

Don't we also have choices?

Only if we refuse the concept of predestination, and, to a great extent, the concept of preknowledge of all future events.

Otherwise, we were simply destined to have this discussion, and its predetermined whether or not anyone is swayed. What I say makes no difference: its already set in stone and there is nothing any of us can do. We have the inherent amount of choice that a desktop computer does. We follow instructions built into us, our parents, their parents and so on. This sentence was predestined. And this one. I was predestined to write a sentence fragment and then point it out.

Nothing matters. It's all us doing what we must.

[Galloism]

If God chose to foresee his choice, then he never really had a choice at all.

Patently false!

If God forsaw his choice, and he still made that choice, so long as God did not impede him, he always had the ability to do otherwise, even if he will not do otherwise.

Probably not. God cannot be wrong, therefore his knowledge of future events locks them into place.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Don't we also have choices?

Only if we refuse the concept of predestination, and, to a great extent, the concept of preknowledge of all future events.

Otherwise, we were simply destined to have this discussion, and its predetermined whether or not anyone is swayed. What I say makes no difference: its already set in stone and there is nothing any of us can do. We have the inherent amount of choice that a desktop computer does. We follow instructions built into us, our parents, their parents and so on. This sentence was predestined. And this one. I was predestined to write a sentence fragment and then point it out.

Nothing matters. It's all us doing what we must.

This is depressing...

[Menassa]

*shrug*

How you see my God is of no consequence to me my friend.

As a being who is Omnibenevolent I would think evil to be necessary... but that's a larger topic.

See, I don't see God that way. You say you do. I'm merely summing up the logical conclusion to the arguments you made in this thread.

Satan as a rebellious enemy of God makes far more sense, is scripturaloy congruent, leaves God holding the moral high ground, and makes the prophecies regarding Satan's destruction make far more sense. A god that says, "good job doing my will, now I'm going to destroy you" makes no fucking sense unless he's backstabbing his faithful servant.

Undoubtedly, that's another evil act.

It's flat out impossible to believe a god is loving when he hires someone to trip you up just so he can punish you.

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

[Galloism]

Only if we refuse the concept of predestination, and, to a great extent, the concept of preknowledge of all future events.

Otherwise, we were simply destined to have this discussion, and its predetermined whether or not anyone is swayed. What I say makes no difference: its already set in stone and there is nothing any of us can do. We have the inherent amount of choice that a desktop computer does. We follow instructions built into us, our parents, their parents and so on. This sentence was predestined. And this one. I was predestined to write a sentence fragment and then point it out.

Nothing matters. It's all us doing what we must.

This is depressing...

I didn't say it was a biblically sound concept. In fact, it isn't. The bible hinges on the concept of free will, and although God periodically looks into the future to ascertain what will happen, it only seems to be on a limited targeted basis.

Biblically, its certain we have free will.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Patently false!

If God forsaw his choice, and he still made that choice, so long as God did not impede him, he always had the ability to do otherwise, even if he will not do otherwise.

Probably not. God cannot be wrong, therefore his knowledge of future events locks them into place.

That doesn't matter at all, because foreknowledge does not impede the free will from freely choosing what has been foreknown. It is simply a case where you mistake the fact that you will not do otherwise, from the inability to do otherwise. I look in the past and see that I will choose to buy a red dress instead of a blue one, at that time I still have a choice in choosing between a red and blue dress. Fatalism is not antithetical to Free Will. You say that God foresaw me doing something locks it into place, I say, rather, that my doing something causes God to foresee me do that thing, my free choice sets it into stone.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

See, I don't see God that way. You say you do. I'm merely summing up the logical conclusion to the arguments you made in this thread.

Satan as a rebellious enemy of God makes far more sense, is scripturaloy congruent, leaves God holding the moral high ground, and makes the prophecies regarding Satan's destruction make far more sense. A god that says, "good job doing my will, now I'm going to destroy you" makes no fucking sense unless he's backstabbing his faithful servant.

Undoubtedly, that's another evil act.

It's flat out impossible to believe a god is loving when he hires someone to trip you up just so he can punish you.

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

IIRC, there is evidence of it in the Bible. The Book of Revelation, for example, points to Satan being Gods adversary.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

IIRC, there is evidence of it in the Bible. The Book of Revelation, for example, points to Satan being Gods adversary.

That is in Christian Scriptures, and the Apocalypse of St. John holds a doubtful status within canon.

[Galloism]

See, I don't see God that way. You say you do. I'm merely summing up the logical conclusion to the arguments you made in this thread.

Satan as a rebellious enemy of God makes far more sense, is scripturaloy congruent, leaves God holding the moral high ground, and makes the prophecies regarding Satan's destruction make far more sense. A god that says, "good job doing my will, now I'm going to destroy you" makes no fucking sense unless he's backstabbing his faithful servant.

Undoubtedly, that's another evil act.

It's flat out impossible to believe a god is loving when he hires someone to trip you up just so he can punish you.

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

Well, God titled him "Adversary" and threatened him with death.

The devil then insulted God to his face in Job.

I wouldn't exactly call them on good speaking terms.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

IIRC, there is evidence of it in the Bible. The Book of Revelation, for example, points to Satan being Gods adversary.

That is in Christian Scriptures, and the Apocalypse of St. John holds a doubtful status within canon.

Eh, yes? Scripturally, for Christians, there is evidence in the Bible that Satan is God's adversary.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

Well, God titled him "Adversary" and threatened him with death.

The devil then insulted God to his face in Job.

I wouldn't exactly call them on good speaking terms.

HaSatan is a general term for Adversary, the devil did not insult God to his face in Job, he merely questioned Job's piety, they seemed to be on friendly terms throughout Job.

[Menassa]

That is in Christian Scriptures, and the Apocalypse of St. John holds a doubtful status within canon.

Eh, yes? Scripturally, for Christians, there is evidence in the Bible that Satan is God's adversary.

I didn't state for Christians, there is certain evidence for Christians.

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

Well, God titled him "Adversary" and threatened him with death.

The devil then insulted God to his face in Job.

I wouldn't exactly call them on good speaking terms.

Satan's actions in Job detail greatly of his job (no pun intended) to test or 'prosecute' humanity that we may grow.

[Galloism]

Probably not. God cannot be wrong, therefore his knowledge of future events locks them into place.

That doesn't matter at all, because foreknowledge does not impede the free will from freely choosing what has been foreknown. It is simply a case where you mistake the fact that you will not do otherwise, from the inability to do otherwise. I look in the past and see that I will choose to buy a red dress instead of a blue one, at that time I still have a choice in choosing between a red and blue dress. Fatalism is not antithetical to Free Will. You say that God foresaw me doing something locks it into place, I say, rather, that my doing something causes God to foresee me do that thing, my free choice sets it into stone.

Are you going to argue god is a time traveler?

If I know red your favorite color, I can suppose you will buy a red dress tomorrow. I can even make an educated guess on the subject. I can be downright certain in fact, but you could still prove me wrong and buy the blue.

Now, if I am a being that cannot, by force of the universe, be wrong, how can you be said to have a choice tomorrow?

[Menassa]

There's no scriptural evidence to say Satan is an enemy of God.

IIRC, there is evidence of it in the Bible. The Book of Revelation, for example, points to Satan being Gods adversary.

Luke 10:18 also might help.

[Galloism]

Well, God titled him "Adversary" and threatened him with death.

The devil then insulted God to his face in Job.

I wouldn't exactly call them on good speaking terms.

HaSatan is a general term for Adversary, the devil did not insult God to his face in Job, he merely questioned Job's piety, they seemed to be on friendly terms throughout Job.

Then clearly you need to read it again.

[Galloism]

Eh, yes? Scripturally, for Christians, there is evidence in the Bible that Satan is God's adversary.

I didn't state for Christians, there is certain evidence for Christians.

Well, God titled him "Adversary" and threatened him with death.

The devil then insulted God to his face in Job.

I wouldn't exactly call them on good speaking terms.

Satan's actions in Job detail greatly of his job (no pun intended) to test or 'prosecute' humanity that we may grow.

By insulting his employer and accusing him of not playing fair?

[Menassa]

I didn't state for Christians, there is certain evidence for Christians.


Satan's actions in Job detail greatly of his job (no pun intended) to test or 'prosecute' humanity that we may grow.

By insulting his employer and accusing him of not playing fair?

He's directly discussing Job's faith in God, in order for Job's faith to grow he must be tested, Satan claims.

And when God allows it, Satan follows God's orders directly and does not go more... surely God's 'enemy' wouldn't follow his orders.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

IIRC, there is evidence of it in the Bible. The Book of Revelation, for example, points to Satan being Gods adversary.

Luke 10:18 also might help.

1Peter 5:8–9
Ezekiel 28:17
Ezekiel 28:16–17- Speaks of Satan having a choice