Are Africans entitled to live in Europe?

[Marcurix]

Which doesn't actually harm integration, though it is a practice that shouldn't be encouraged. Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Chinese Americans ect all did this and they integrated.

You're making the mistake of comparing entirely different types of immigration.

In terms of who migrated, the people you mentioned as immigrants in the United States were generally white, Christian immigrants and Chinese immigrants.

So ignoring that the presence of the Chinese immigrant puts the white christian thing of yours out the window I'm going to give you a bit of a history lesson.

Those Irish and Italians? They were not considered white at the time. And Christians? They were Catholic at a time when being so in a largely Protestant country was a bad thing. The first language they spoke? Well for the Italians it was Italian, the Chinese it was one of the Chinese languages. It still happens today as well, to be clear.

Now, Chinese immigrants aren't causing any problems in Europe either - they're well-behaved and ambitious, they take good care of their children, they respect the laws of the land, and what crime they occasionally commit they commit only within their own communities.

I don't abide stereotypes. Especially unsupported ones.

Europe is facing an entirely different kind of migrants. Africans, most of them also Sunni Muslims of the conservative kind. People who have values that are often entirely incompatible with those of the people living in Europe already.

I really doesn't sound like you've been around any significant number of Muslims for any real length of time.

People who seek wealth above all else,

Funny, you've just been saying how incompatible they are only to point out a value they share with many Europeans.

and who don't mind relying on government benefits to get that wealth.

Again, I don't abide unsupported stereotypes.

People who think in terms of their own community above all else, and generally marry, work and live among their own.

So the terms Chinatown and little Italy are alien to you are they?

Basically, European countries are tolerating, hosting and nurturing growing African nations within their own territories.

You're not saying anything people a hundred years ago weren't saying about the immigrants of the day, which is kind of funny having studied this from a historical standpoint.

Adherent to the Sunni denominations of Salafism or Wahhabism.

I wonder exactly when you'd acknowledge these things to be a small small minority of things.

The assembly has already taken place.
Some accidents have happened already (Paris, London, Malmö), but the main storage has yet to catch fire.

Nor will it. Because the only way it will catch fire is if people pour the powder, get the match and light it.

I've generally been critical of the UK's immigration policies for several reasons-but the situation is not nearly as bleak as you paint it.

[L Ron Cupboard]

http://www.cepprobation.org/uploaded_files/pres%20Nie%2008%20Streng.pdf

Prisoners by nationality 67.4% Dutch

Still high. I mean, fuck.

Yes it is, and it would be interesting to know more about the reasons - I would suspect that there is more to it than the rather simplistic 'because they are immigrants'. My problem was with Quintium asserting something without providing the figures to back it up.

[Spagatine states of Potato]

Your name says it all.

LUL

That was amazing!

[Ainin]

Entitled? No.

Should be allowed to? Of course.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

How? They don't have a 'descent of historically hindered social groups'. These are people who descend from people who raided European shores to abduct slaves up unil the nineteenth century. Meanwhile, the Protestant Indonesians who live here (because Indonesia used to be a colony) are generally well-behaved. No, I don't think this has anything to do with historical mistreatment.

I'm talking about they being hated, feared ghetto people in the Dutchlands~ and elsewhere nas Oropas.

I mean, poor people from traditional, sometimes abusive families and neighborhoods living in an environment where most people are largely more well-qualified to stand in society than them have special needs. Anywhere.

[The Peoples Democratic Socialist Empire]

Why wouldn't Africans be able to live wherever they wanted?

[Quintium]

Europe is facing an entirely different kind of migrants. Africans, most of them also Sunni Muslims of the conservative kind. People who have values that are often entirely incompatible with those of the people living in Europe already.

I really doesn't sound like you've been around any significant number of Muslims for any real length of time.

I wish I could confirm your unfortunate personal attack, but I can't.
In the region where I live (a few towns, one major city), there are about a hundred thousand Muslims.
They're bad news, and I've had plenty of bad experiences with them.

and who don't mind relying on government benefits to get that wealth.

Again, I don't abide unsupported stereotypes.

Did you see the figures I posted? Non-western immigrants (15% of the population) quite nearly outnumber native Dutch people (80% of the population) in absolute numbers of people on welfare.

People who think in terms of their own community above all else, and generally marry, work and live among their own.

So the terms Chinatown and little Italy are alien to you are they?

It's a combination. The Chinese, as I said, cause no problems.
The problem here is that these groups keep to themselves and cause problems for everyone else.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Because:
- European countries have a welfare state, and the African immigrants we've received in the past are already severely over-represented as recipients of welfare.
- In terms of crime, these migrants are also over-represented. They are up to three times as likely to commit crimes as the general population.
- These migrants aren't always very tolerant. They tend to have very negative attitudes when it comes to things like homosexuality and women's rights, and many of them hate Europeans.
- They bring with them the values of their countries of origin, and in Europe they stick to them generation after generation. Basically, European inner cities are becoming Balkanised non-western countries.

All four can be said about Europeans themselves: welfare sapping, crime, intolerance and traditionalism.

Not to the same level.

What are you going to propose as a solution? Deportation or turning them back? Deport European welfare queens, criminals, intolerants and traditionals as well then. Anything other would be blatant racism, nationalism and native supremacy. Being over- or underrepresented doesn't matter. Punishment on crime should be equal regardless of ethnic origin in my opinion, but you don't seem to think that way.

Racism, nationalism, and nativism are three separate things. Nationalism and nativism are perfectly legitimate ideas as long as they are not taken to extremes.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Racism, nationalism, and nativism are three separate things. Nationalism and nativism are perfectly legitimate ideas as long as they are not taken to extremes.

I may get flack for this, but maybe racist nationalism could also be legitimate if you are on the side of those suffering or those who are an extreme minority and a very small consciousness will drive you into non-existence.

Or maybe none of these are, because we are all human and equal.

[Little Flowers]

Think about it!!! Europe mercilessly exploited Africa for thousands of years!! Their the sole reason poverty exists in that country!!! Africans come to Europe in search of a better of life because they can't find that in Africa, and it's all Europe's fault!!! I think they ARE entitled to live in Europe because it's our fault they can't have a decent living in Africa!!! What do you think???

I think obnoxious teenagers shouldn't live.

When did Europe become a country?

Why do the most idiotic topics get the highest post counts? They are like swamps for Mosquitos.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I think obnoxious teenagers shouldn't live.

When did Europe become a country?

Why do the most idiotic topics get the highest post counts? They are like swamps for Mosquitos.

Look, a census recordist!

[Seriong]

Why wouldn't Africans be able to live wherever they wanted?

Because borders are a thing. The same reason I can't go live in Australia or Canada.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Prevent or reject all new arrivals, deport those who enter illegally without giving them a chance to gain citizenship and make a real effort to fortify Europe's outer borders.
And if that fails, cancel the free movement of people across the European Union.

You don't need to reject international students who come in for uni, or educated people that are looking for specialized work such as doctors, scientists, etc. Rejecting everyone that happens to be from Africa, regardless of other factors, is just racist and dumb.

And why can they live together? Because even though they disagree, they're the same nation. If you ask a Dutch socialist and a Dutch nationalist to name their core values, chances are they'll name the very same core values. But ask a Dutch socialist and a Somali socialist to name their core values, and you'll get a very different result. Chances are the Somali socialist doesn't give a rat's ass about equal rights for men and women, and rejects the Dutch socialist's freedom of religion even if the Dutch socialist tolerates his religion.

I don't think you understand how political ideologies work. Some ideologies might be more popular in one country or another (e.g. right-libertarianism being more common in the US than in Europe), but people who belong to the same ideology will have many values in common regardless of their nationality or ethnicity. Communists pretty much always believe in gender equality, regardless if they are Dutch or Somali, because it's part of the ideology. Socialists usually do too. And people of the same nation can have drastically different fundamental values depending on their ideology.

The reason having different ideologies within a nation doesn't cause it to explode is because they are all mixed together and there's no way to tell someone's ideology just by looking at them. There aren't fascist neighborhoods or communist neighborhoods the way there are Somali neighborhoods. By the time you find out what someone's ideology is, you've probably talked to them enough to think of them as an individual rather than just a random face in a crowd.

If people can tell your ideology just by looking because you're advertising it through your clothes or something, that causes the same friction as segregated ethnic communities.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Then why on earth would you want to import entire tribes from those places to Europe? Tolerance of intolerance ends tolerance itself, you know.

Because states and their governments often do not represent the people they rule over and vice versa.
Tolerance of intolerant ideas is vital for there to be freedoms of opinion, speech, press and expression.

There are limits to how far you can take that before the intolerant ideas become a problem and ruin the system.

For example, I was once on a bus in Cambridge, and a man started announcing to the whole bus that homosexuality is a waste of life. The bus driver told him, "Sir! Excuse me, sir! You can't do that on the bus!" and the homophobic guy started arguing that this was a violation of his 2nd Amendment rights. Yes, he really said 2nd Amendment. He apparently wasn't an expert on the Constitution.

So here's the problem: If that is allowed, and too many people do that sort of thing, it creates a hostile environment for homosexuals. At some point you have to decide what's more important, a homophobe's right to free speech or homosexuals' right to be accepted. There has to be somewhere that you draw the line and tell people that their intolerant ideas are not welcome.

But what do assholes on the bus have to do with immigration, you may be wondering. Well, what would the bus driver have done if she couldn't get the guy to settle down? She would have kicked him off the bus. Limiting immigration and deporting trouble-makers is how nations kick people off the bus to stop them bothering other passengers.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Unless you're willing to kick native criminals, welfare queens, jobless people and other people 'expensive' to the country out of the country, you're nothing more than a racist.

There is nowhere to deport them to.

[Nazi Flower Power]

http://www.cepprobation.org/uploaded_fi ... Streng.pdf

Prisoners by nationality 67.4% Dutch

What you fail to address is that this source counts second-generation immigrants as Dutch for the sake of nationality.

2nd generation immigrants are Dutch by nationality.

Absolute hogwash. We've mollycoddled these people to no end, and they've repaid us with unemployment and crime. We've offered them state-funded lessons in their own languages and state-funded islamic schools to send their children to. We've offered them practically free housing, free health care, free education, and for decades it's been a societal and political taboo to discuss crime rates in those communities. People were convicted in court for hate speech for saying things like "this country is full" and "we should end normative multiculturalism".

I'm guessing the Islamic schools are a bigger problem than the number of people you allow to immigrate...

[Nazi Flower Power]

There hasn't been a single instance in history where two markedly different ethno-cultural groups have managed to peacefully coexist on the same turf for long.

Which is why I believe Europe should pick assimilationism over multiculturalism, when it comes to immigration.

Good plan.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Which is why I believe Europe should pick assimilationism over multiculturalism, when it comes to immigration.

Good plan.

Am I the only one who thinks people don't need to stop being Algerian to become French?

[Nazi Flower Power]

What a bunch of BS. Africa is in a state because of the shitty governments that run the continent, not because of the West.

On the other hand, Africa was stable and wealthy before Europe exploited her.

With no shortage of slavery, sexism, and other things that modern society frowns on...

Africa is not worse off now that than it was before Europeans arrived. It just looks bad by comparison to other parts of the world because other places have advanced more rapidly.

[Great German States]

They are entitled to live anywhere they want to live.

[Marcurix]

I wish I could confirm your unfortunate personal attack, but I can't.
In the region where I live (a few towns, one major city), there are about a hundred thousand Muslims.
They're bad news, and I've had plenty of bad experiences with them.

That's not a personal attack. You resort to so many generalizations and stereotypes I can't help but question your interaction with these people that you're so critical of. I've interacted with stigmatized groups on two continents and your attitude pretty much mirrors the kind of person who distances themselves from such a group without actually knowing anyone from that group outside of that it's "them".

Again, I don't abide unsupported stereotypes.

Did you see the figures I posted? Non-western immigrants (15% of the population) quite nearly outnumber native Dutch people (80% of the population) in absolute numbers of people on welfare.

Great, now prove that's them "relying on the government to get wealth" outside the normal use of benefits.

It's a combination. The Chinese, as I said, cause no problems.
The problem here is that these groups keep to themselves and cause problems for everyone else.

The Chinese and Italians did cause problems from the historical perspectives. Hence the head taxes and so forth, so try again.

Also if you want this to continue any further you can go back and address the other points i made, rather than ignoring them.

[Pietree]

This thread.

And OP's signature

[Common Territories]

Think about it!!! Europe mercilessly exploited Africa for thousands of years!! Their the sole reason poverty exists in that country!!! Africans come to Europe in search of a better of life because they can't find that in Africa, and it's all Europe's fault!!! I think they ARE entitled to live in Europe because it's our fault they can't have a decent living in Africa!!! What do you think???

1: Africa is not a country.
2: Slavery of Africans started in Africa. Prisoners were captured and sold into slavery long before whites came and performed the same thing; in fact, Africans sold other Africans to whites.
3. No, that's not the sole reason.
4. It's not "our" fault. Im American and I never contributed to slavery once. In fact, my ancestors fought it.
5. No one is untitled to anything they do not earn. Saying Africans are entitled to live in Europe because they were owned by Europeans is nonsense; by that logic, just about every ethnic group can live just about everywhere because of war, slavery, and POW's. No one is entitled to live somewhere; if people want to live somewhere, they can. People can live where ever they wish.

Your name says it all.

Nailed it.

[Imperium Sidhicum]

I fully agree with Quintium.

There hasn't been a single instance in history where two markedly different ethno-cultural groups have managed to peacefully coexist on the same turf for long. The majority group will always try to force it's ways on the minority, and the minority will always respond by clinging to their ways even more stubbornly until one side eventually gains the upper hand, or both sides are overwhelmed by an even more powerful third party. Any attempts at reconciliation by the majority merely lead to role reversal, where the former minority begins to oppress the former majority, again breeding more resentment.

The problem, perhaps, is not so much the fact of the minority but the xenophobic views of the majority at first.

Again, I am an immigrant from another country here in the U.S.; although I should associate with my values from Latin America as per your post I've just managed to find a happy medium where I integrate with American society but also at the same time be able to switch to my Latin American roots should I ever need them - which is what most of us who assimilate end up doing anyways over time.

Mind you, my point of view isn't that of a Native to the land but of someone who immigrated and assimilated well.

America is an exceptional case in that there's hardly any real natives left to speak of, the entire population having been immigrants at some point. That is not the case in the Old World, where there's a distinct ethnic and cultural majority in every country.

And no ethnic nation-state can live for long with a significant minority of outsiders in peace. Just look at what's going on in Ukraine now to see my point.

Some may call it xenophobia, but there's a fine line between xenophobia and survival instinct of a nation.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

2: Slavery of Africans started in Africa. Prisoners were captured and sold into slavery long before whites came and performed the same thing; in fact, Africans sold other Africans to whites.

Discriminated, state-disenfranchised Iberian Jews from humble origins initially for the most part, to be more specific. People tend to think of white people as a stereotype rather than as an all-encompassing group.

So besides Europe, one could say certainly Brazil, most likely other countries like Mexico, Colombia and Venezuela, and maybe Israel have also to pay.