Obama orders pentagon to prepare for afghan withdrawl

[Cannot think of a name]

What do you mean 'won't tell you'? That's been the news for like, the last two or three years.

And while I agree that working with Karzai is terrible, and he and his whole clan seem like terrible people from everything I've heard about them... my understanding is that the biggest gripe he has with signing the agreement is the insistence by the US Government that its service personnel will be considered above Afghan law and judicial institutions. That was a problem in Iraq as well, leading to the withdrawal there.

One can reasonably ask whether it wouldn't be more appropriate if US soldiers that are stationed in these countries were in fact subject to the law in those countries, at least when not on duty.* I agree that the Afghan legal system is a bit shit, and this is obviously a hot potato in many countries, since in many high profile cases US military justice systems have found personnel to be not guilty in a manner that was not satisfactory to authorities in those countries. But there ought to be at least some recognition that a more nuanced SOFA can't be rejected outright - not least because there've been a few cases of US personnel acting in a way that is unlikely to endear them to the Afghan public.

* I don't know if changes have been made since, but my understanding was that US negotiators have been insistence on total immunity from local law enforcement, even for off-duty personnel.

Yep, that's been the story. That apparently 'they' 'aren't telling you' despite it being pretty much the story told for the last few years.

I actually completely understand both positions on that, really. I can see why the US would want its soldiers to be under US jurisdiction and I can completely see why the sovereign country they're in going, "Yeah, fuck that."

[Empire of Narnia]

They shouldn't let their "colony" do stuff like that.

[Ashmoria]

As someone already pointed out, how is this new? A withdrawment date has been set for the ISAF since at least a few years.

Yes. Obama said we'd start transisitioning our troops out this year, and we'll finally have /some/ out, but the deal also included troops staying to continue efforts throughout 2024. That has now changed. All of them must get /out/ by the end of the year, no exceptions.

that is GREAT news. we don't need a residual force in Afghanistan.

[Ashmoria]

A sweepstake on how long Karzai lives after is probably bad taste...

we could take bets on which country he moves to with his billions of stolen dollars...

[Wolfmanne]

Well, shit. Karzai better not fuck up.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

How is this not one of the top stories on the news right now? What's being reported instead?

[Jantanu]

the only reason that i think they should not leave is because werent they helping Afgan's armed forces train!!?? they need to stay there for another 2-5 years or until Afgan can handle things by theirselves

[Ashmoria]

the only reason that i think they should not leave is because werent they helping Afgan's armed forces train!!?? they need to stay there for another 2-5 years or until Afgan can handle things by theirselves

unfortunately the afghan government disagrees.

so they all get to go home instead.

yay!

[Jantanu]

but you get my opinion right? they need more training before they leave, i have a bead feeling some kind of civil-unrest will unfold and it will make Afghanistan a bad place again

[Draica]

How is this not one of the top stories on the news right now? What's being reported instead?

The Arizona bill..*facepalm*

[Wolfmanne]

How is this not one of the top stories on the news right now? What's being reported instead?

BBC News only posted the story 30 minutes ago. Media companies are probably still writing it up.

[Jantanu]

How is this not one of the top stories on the news right now? What's being reported instead?

BBC News only posted the story 30 minutes ago. Media companies are probably still writing it up.

ture, but do you agree with what i said before?

[Wolfmanne]

BBC News only posted the story 30 minutes ago. Media companies are probably still writing it up.

ture, but do you agree with what i said before?

To a degree. The Afghan military will be able to handle itself but they would be a lot more efficient with more training. Right now I think both sides will be looking for peace and once the Coalition leaves, that will come. If the conflict drags on, the Afghan government will probably win.

[Jantanu]

[quote][/quote]

i think so too, but they did say they were slowly taking the soldiers out didnt they?

[Wolfmanne]

i think so too, but they did say they were slowly taking the soldiers out didnt they?

More Taliban have been killed than people in either the ANA or the Coalition. The only significant problem really is literacy. Illiteracy is high among Afghan soldiers and it will always be an issue. Most Afghans (not generalising, but honestly, most) can't even write their own names .

[Cannot think of a name]

Well, shit. Karzai better not fuck up.

Isn't he terming out? They're gearing up for elections at the moment.

[Herador]

To a degree. The Afghan military will be able to handle itself but they would be a lot more efficient with more training. Right now I think both sides will be looking for peace and once the Coalition leaves, that will come. If the conflict drags on, the Afghan government will probably win.

I'm not disagreeing, but can you explain why you believe this?

[Paixao]

I hope on the way out we wipe out half that country so we won't have to go back.

What a healthy, inspiring world view.

[Wolfmanne]

Well, shit. Karzai better not fuck up.

Isn't he terming out? They're gearing up for elections at the moment.

Yes, but until we get a new President, whom, might I add, may either be the shining beacon of democracy (unlikely) or the highest bidder (likely), he is the one calling the shots. In this short time, he could fuck up so badly that the moment the last American soldier leaves, the Taliban have stormed Kabul. Unlikely, but it is still possible that the Taliban could make significant gains during the withdrawal if it is executed badly.

To a degree. The Afghan military will be able to handle itself but they would be a lot more efficient with more training. Right now I think both sides will be looking for peace and once the Coalition leaves, that will come. If the conflict drags on, the Afghan government will probably win.

I'm not disagreeing, but can you explain why you believe this?

Once the Coalition forces leave, Obama is clearly going to have some stake in Afghanistan. Just as there are drone strikes in Pakistan, in some form, there will continue to be an American presence, likely to be drones or some special forces unit that we're not meant to know about. The CIA and MI6 would likely continue their intelligence operations in Afghanistan to supply a steady stream of intelligence to the Afghan government to ensure that they have the upper hand.

As for the Afghan military itself, they do have several advantages over the Taliban. The first is airpower, and in particular, the composition of their air force. It may lack any fighter jets or unused Eurofighter Typhoons etc, but it is geared as an anti-insurgent air force. Last time I checked, their Air Force has ordered between 30-50 medium airlift helicopters, some of which will be modified to become gunships, in addition and 20 Super Tucanos, some of which are to be outfitted as training planes whilst others are to be used as ground-attack aircraft. In regards to the Army, there has been a great deal of improvement in its fighting capability thanks to NATO training. Whilst there are problems, they do have a decent mechanised capability to deal with the Taliban and in terms of special operations, their Commandos are battle-proven. Sure, they wouldn't last in a fight against a neighbouring country, but the point is that the Afghan military is built to deal with its sole threat: the Taliban. If it goes to shit, the US will just send more equipment and up their ante in terms of the stuff we don't hear about.

EDIT: Edited some shit.

[Jantanu]

More Taliban have been killed than people in either the ANA or the Coalition. The only significant problem really is literacy. Illiteracy is high among Afghan soldiers and it will always be an issue. Most Afghans (not generalising, but honestly, most) can't even write their own names .[/quote]


true, its actually pretty sad

[Chronodosia]

What do you mean 'won't tell you'? That's been the news for like, the last two or three years.

And while I agree that working with Karzai is terrible, and he and his whole clan seem like terrible people from everything I've heard about them... my understanding is that the biggest gripe he has with signing the agreement is the insistence by the US Government that its service personnel will be considered above Afghan law and judicial institutions. That was a problem in Iraq as well, leading to the withdrawal there.

One can reasonably ask whether it wouldn't be more appropriate if US soldiers that are stationed in these countries were in fact subject to the law in those countries, at least when not on duty.* I agree that the Afghan legal system is a bit shit, and this is obviously a hot potato in many countries, since in many high profile cases US military justice systems have found personnel to be not guilty in a manner that was not satisfactory to authorities in those countries. But there ought to be at least some recognition that a more nuanced SOFA can't be rejected outright - not least because there've been a few cases of US personnel acting in a way that is unlikely to endear them to the Afghan public.

* I don't know if changes have been made since, but my understanding was that US negotiators have been insisting on total immunity from local law enforcement, even for off-duty personnel.

I say that if a U.S. Military soldier that is off duty commits a crime, Accident or not, they are not allowed to leave base as they were not on duty at the time and thus they do not have diplomatic immunity. If the commander of the base orders that they be taken off base for any reason, the base commander should be court marshaled as the OFF-DUTY solider, is not a soldier at the time of the crime. They have to be tried like any other person that commits a crime in that country, USING that countries LEGAL system instead of a fricking court marshal in a matter the military doesn't belong in. I am saying this as an AMERICAN CITIZEN that was to join the UNITED STATES ARMY in four years after I finish high-school. If they are on duty then they need to be taken and given a Court Marshal as soon as possible to appease the public. as if there is bad press then there will be less recruits

[The Victorian Empire]

Bin Laden's sleeping with the fishes and the Taliban's out of power. Job's done, 9/11's avenged, and there's a new face on the FBI's most wanted listed. Time to prepare for the next idiot who decides they can fuck with the USA and win.

[Chronodosia]

Bin Laden's sleeping with the fishes and the Taliban's out of power. Job's done, 9/11's avenged, and there's a new face on the FBI's most wanted listed. Time to prepare for the next idiot who decides they can fuck with the USA and win.

To frickin right!

[Untaroicht]

What the hell happened to that USA that loved to install military dictatorships in the place of regimes unfriendly to them especially in way more relevant situations like this is beyond me.

Our economy plunged into a depression and now we cannot afford said addiction to sprout up puppet dictatorships all over the world like Johnny Appleseed, and we're currently barricading our door because our chinese landlord is attempting to evict us with a battering ram.

We would if we could, but alas we don't have the money to do so. I like to think that US politics are becoming more and more like the politics of the Roman Republic everyday, it makes me feel more comfortable then what is actually going on.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

I saw in a video that both US and UK forces would completely leave Afghanistan by December 31, 2014.