Obama orders pentagon to prepare for afghan withdrawl

[Dakran]

Armies don't determine whether or not a population deserves death...



Aye. Anyways, I've heard this for ages, the US pulling out. Is it completely serious this time?

They deserve death for Destroying Mekkah as it says will happen towards the end of the world they are always aiding America with OIL America gives them weapons they are also a hotbed for Wahabism look it up and you will be terrified they attack Shias on a daily basis by sponsoring the bombings in Pakistan. They are Anti-Ba'ath they think Israel is a country. They also have but lies into the minds of there people by means of Terror and Oppression.

Look I'll level with you. I don't think you have any credibly because of your statement. You're saying that an entire nations population deserves death because a holy site was destroyed? It's not as if other religions didn't do that. I'm certain Christians destroyed Pagan religious sites as well as Islams. Islam has possibly destroyed religious sites as well. Israel IS a country as it is recognized by nearly every nation on earth.

Aye. Anyways, I've heard this for ages, the US pulling out. Is it completely serious this time?

Appears to be so. Of course, the options remain 10,000 residual with 5,000 NATO till 2015, a smaller mobile based primarily in Kabul, with the ability to travel as needed, 3,000 U.S. troops in Kabul and Bagram, and a complete withdrawal.

I myself would prefer complete withdrawal, but if there's more benefit in keeping a few troops there then that's fine.

[Stovokor]

I don't even think it's a question any more. Alas we dropped the ball yet again. In either case I still advocate focusing on internal matters. Even if they rise again as an organization, I doubt they can pose a serious threat if we maintain vigilance and continue to destabilize their efforts from air.

Yeah, but the contractors were a real screwup. A friends mom essentially spends 3/4 of every year there all across the country, and tells me that much if not most of the US built stuff is crumbling or kaput. There are already major issues with the irrigation system in Nagarhar. A pity too, given how effective it could have been in winning over the populace. Seems that a lot of Afghans, especially in the north, say that at least what the Russians built for us still stands. Supposedly, a lot of the northerners now like the Russians more than they do the Americans.

True and as I said, it was a major screw up on the part of the U.S. government, with no way to fix it. If I could think of any solution I would gladly offer one, but at this point in time, another country would be in a better position to gain the Afgani's trust and help them.

[Inquilabstan]

True and as I said, it was a major screw up on the part of the U.S. government, with no way to fix it. If I could think of any solution I would gladly offer one, but at this point in time, another country would be in a better position to gain the Afgani's trust and help them.

Certainly. The defence spending cuts are perhaps the best thing Obama has done in his two terms. Here in India, we seem to be increasingly involved, and I have read quite a few accounts of the Indian Army possibly training ANA units. The Chinese also appear to be an option. Of course, I am convinced that JSOC isn't going to pull out. Despite it being the Afghan's biggest gripe, it ha always been that which they have had least control over.

[Alawiite]

They deserve death for Destroying Mekkah as it says will happen towards the end of the world they are always aiding America with OIL America gives them weapons they are also a hotbed for Wahabism look it up and you will be terrified they attack Shias on a daily basis by sponsoring the bombings in Pakistan. They are Anti-Ba'ath they think Israel is a country. They also have but lies into the minds of there people by means of Terror and Oppression.

Look I'll level with you. I don't think you have any credibly because of your statement. You're saying that an entire nations population deserves death because a holy site was destroyed? It's not as if other religions didn't do that. I'm certain Christians destroyed Pagan religious sites as well as Islams. Islam has possibly destroyed religious sites as well. Israel IS a country as it is recognized by nearly every nation on earth.

Appears to be so. Of course, the options remain 10,000 residual with 5,000 NATO till 2015, a smaller mobile based primarily in Kabul, with the ability to travel as needed, 3,000 U.S. troops in Kabul and Bagram, and a complete withdrawal.

I myself would prefer complete withdrawal, but if there's more benefit in keeping a few troops there then that's fine.

Don't get me started on Christans you know Bosnakia? I'll call him he will tell you about there evils they made me leve my home land Syria.And they ruined Bosnakia's Life so yes Christians are fairly evil as well.

[Sjovenia]

What do you mean 'won't tell you'? That's been the news for like, the last two or three years.

Hahaha agreed....how about this Not So Honorable Chuck Hagel? Military budget cuts, kicking more people out...people that means less people with jobs, higher unemployment rate, and it makes it hard for me to get into the military. WTF hagel

[Stovokor]

Certainly. The defence spending cuts are perhaps the best thing Obama has done in his two terms. Here in India, we seem to be increasingly involved, and I have read quite a few accounts of the Indian Army possibly training ANA units. The Chinese also appear to be an option. Of course, I am convinced that JSOC isn't going to pull out. Despite it being the Afghan's biggest gripe, it ha always been that which they have had least control over.

True, honestly I wonder if a complete withdrawal might be best for them. If anything the documentaries on that region show that modernized countries actually pose little ability to aid due to the drastic culture differences and differences in social institutions and ways of organization.

[Inquilabstan]

True, honestly I wonder if a complete withdrawal might be best for them. If anything the documentaries on that region show that modernized countries actually pose little ability to aid due to the drastic culture differences and differences in social institutions and ways of organization.

I don't think so. Complete withdrawal would see the ANA overrun by the Taliban very quickly. The fact remains that desertion, a lack of communications, and dysfunctional command structure have led it to be a force that is unreliable. Most of the soldiers are good men, but they are largely in it for the money. Plus, the best officers are former Mujaheddin who have an appalling chance of coming home in a casket. One of the finest generals died in 2009 in a chopper crash. Fought with the DRA until Kabul fell and joined Masood. Good man.

Edit. Gen. Fazaludin Sayar! hat's his name.

[Stovokor]

True, honestly I wonder if a complete withdrawal might be best for them. If anything the documentaries on that region show that modernized countries actually pose little ability to aid due to the drastic culture differences and differences in social institutions and ways of organization.

I don't think so. Complete withdrawal would see the ANA overrun by the Taliban very quickly. The fact remains that desertion, a lack of communications, and dysfunctional command structure have led it to be a force that is unreliable. Most of the soldiers are good men, but they are largely in it for the money. Plus, the best officers are former Mujaheddin who have an appalling chance of coming home in a casket. One of the finest generals died in 2009 in a chopper crash. Fought with the DRA until Kabul fell and joined Masood. Good man.

Edit. Gen. Fazaludin Sayar! hat's his name.

Ahh tragic, in either case I suppose however the current system is rampant with corruption and abuses of power, especially at the local level. This is of course not winning much support with the populace.

[Inquilabstan]

Ahh tragic, in either case I suppose however the current system is rampant with corruption and abuses of power, especially at the local level. This is of course not winning much support with the populace.

True. A lot of the police chiefs are the same Mujaheddin commanders who were infamous for raping boys, greatly contributing to the initial popularity of the Taliban. And of course, they are back at it.

[The Archregimancy]

Locked for review of the last three pages.

People, I'm supposed to be working here - I have a book proposal to write.

Is it too much to ask that we can all just behave on those occasions when I'm casually scanning the forums?


Edit:

I bring you.... JUDGEMENT

Alawiite

أهدأ

They deserve death for Destroying Mekkah as it says will happen towards the end of the world they are always aiding America with OIL America gives them weapons they are also a hotbed for Wahabism look it up and you will be terrified they attack Shias on a daily basis by sponsoring the bombings in Pakistan. They are Anti-Ba'ath they think Israel is a country. They also have but lies into the minds of there people by means of Terror and Oppression.

Permissible: Expressing your opinion within the forum rules; here's an example.... "I am deeply disappointed with the Saudi government for what they've done to the Holy City of Mecca, ripping apart its historical infrastructure. I also have deep concerns about the ongoing alliance between Saudi Arabia and the United States, and the country's role as a hotbed of Wahabism. They sponsor bombings on Shias in Pakistan. They are anti-Ba'ath, and are actually prepared to recognise Israel should there be a peace deal with the Palestinians. They use terror and oppression to cow their own people."

Not permissible: Wishing death on an entire nationality.

Look I'll level with you. I don't think you have any credibly because of your statement. You're saying that an entire nations population deserves death because a holy site was destroyed? It's not as if other religions didn't do that. I'm certain Christians destroyed Pagan religious sites as well as Islams. Islam has possibly destroyed religious sites as well. Israel IS a country as it is recognized by nearly every nation on earth.

Don't get me started on Christans you know Bosnakia? I'll call him he will tell you about there evils they made me leve my home land Syria.And they ruined Bosnakia's Life so yes Christians are fairly evil as well.

Permissible: "Christianity is an evil doctrine"

Not permissible: "[All] Christians are fairly evil"

*** Warned for ongoing trolling / advocating genocide ***

I've tried to be constructive with this warning in an attempt to show you where you're going wrong. I appreciate that English is not your first language, but you may want to modify your posting style or your stay here will likely be short.




Connori Pilgrims

- everything Alawiite has said -

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Too funny.

Been smoking the good hashish eh?

*** Warned for the rarely used offence of trollbaiting ***



And I gently remind everyone that I live in a Gulf country (though not Saudi Arabia), and am fully aware of regional politics, thank you very much.

I will now unlock the thread.

[Marcurix]

Iran got it's ass kicked by Saddam. So even if it Invades Afghanistan, Israel and America ain't gon' allow that.

Hezballah PLO Hamas and Mahdi's Army will just rocket Israel than the Syrian Government would annex it. Than Iran and Hezballah would rocket the Afghan border and work with Shi'ite Militas in Afghanistan to invade. Saddam was supplied by America to fight against Shias. The Shias are always victorious.

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but none of that is remotely possible.

Hezballah PLO Hamas and Mahdi's Army will just rocket Israel than the Syrian Government would annex it.

If they could, which they can not because they do not posses the military capability, economic means or political will to do so, they would have done so already. Also to point out the PLO and Hamas would not accept Syrian annexation in this impossible situation of yours, even if they did put aside their differences and they will not do so for the foreseeable future.

Than Iran and Hezballah would rocket the Afghan border and work with Shi'ite Militas in Afghanistan to invade. Saddam was supplied by America to fight against Shias. The Shias are always victorious.

If the Shi'a were always victorious there wouldn't be any Sunni. However, there do in fact appear to be Sunni making up not only the majority of the population of Afghanistan, but also the Muslim world. The former (along with the Afgani Shi'a) of which will not, by the way, roll over to Iran and Hezbollah should they ever mount enough resources and capability to invade Afghanistan (and they will not bar some extremely bizarre turn of events) and the two would be driven out in short order.

[Herskerstad]

Karzai is such a mastermind. Not only have he rolled back the clock on women's rights 1400 years. Ensured an easy power-projection in favor of the Taliban with his consistent lobbying, Condemned the nation to a probably over a century more of tribalistic feuding and made it a hotbed to repeat said process in the nations they border, but he is also most likely going to be eventually hanged IF he is lucky as the Taliban will not forget some of his past offenses.

As far as Obama goes. Well, he gets no bonus points on how he handled Karzai, let alone Afghanistan. While it was a shitty war with little to smile about, there was a chance of inviting the society into the modern age if there would have been a commitment and the assets to do so. Despite being fairly isolated by the UN which is as clueless as usual, all we are left with is going to be one nation and their people in utter turmoil. There may be peace, but it will be a peace with slavery, subjugation, backwardness, oppression of all kinds of minorities

And no, the shitty arms sales will not modernize the army to somehow keep a buffer for long. If anything it will merely modernize an army primed to be bought by either words or cash from the Taliban.

[Bezombia]

What the hell happened to that USA that loved to install military dictatorships in the place of regimes unfriendly to them especially in way more relevant situations like this is beyond me.

This has been going on since the 70s, even earlier if you count Ngo Dinh Diem as an American puppet (which, for the most part, he was).

[Hollorous]

What the hell happened to that USA that loved to install military dictatorships in the place of regimes unfriendly to them especially in way more relevant situations like this is beyond me.

This has been going on since the 70s, even earlier if you count Ngo Dinh Diem as an American puppet (which, for the most part, he was).

Try the 20s and 30s, with the establishment of the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua.

Oh and I think the US government tried to get Santa Ana to be their "boy" before he turned on them.

[The Fascist American Empire]

How am I thread jacking if I am stating the truth and my predictions. I hate how every one says I'm a troll just because I have "Radical Ideas" Well that's complete Bull. I truly belive Iran will dominate the nation of Islam in order to restore the Caliphate and to defend Ahlubayt.

But Iran's no match for USA + Israel?

America's number one right?

I'd say number three after China and possibly Russia. But you're right. USA and Israel equals a huge sea/crater where Iran once was…

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Armies don't determine whether or not a population deserves death...



Aye. Anyways, I've heard this for ages, the US pulling out. Is it completely serious this time?

They deserve death for Destroying Mekkah as it says will happen towards the end of the world they are always aiding America with OIL America gives them weapons they are also a hotbed for Wahabism look it up and you will be terrified they attack Shias on a daily basis by sponsoring the bombings in Pakistan. They are Anti-Ba'ath they think Israel is a country. They also have but lies into the minds of there people by means of Terror and Oppression.

Somewhat ironically, Saudi Arabia has done FAR more damage to Mecca than the US, crusaders or any Christian forces ever could dream of.

There's a reason Meccas skyline looks like Vegas':
http://thefabweb.com/wp-content/uploads ... /K7Jl1.jpg

[Hladgos]

Yay. Lets just hope Afghanistan can ward off extremists themselves from now on.

[Juggalo world]

I hope on the way out we wipe out half that country so we won't have to go back.

What a healthy, inspiring world view.

Thanks I hope it would be inspiring to put down lesser nations before they pose even a small threat.

[Terra Cecidit]

It's about time. It was worse enough that we declared two unjust wars on two nations that had nothing to do with 9/11 and even worse that it lasted for over 10 years, plunged ourselves into trillions of dollars into debt, and killed thousands of innocent Afgani's and Iraqi's supposedly all in the name of demolishing a regime that was supposedly 'anti-freedom' and unlawfully killing Osama Bin Laden without giving him the right to trial by jury for capital offenses. But in reality it was for oil deals and pipelines with Saudi Arabian oil barons who had links to George W. Bush's family.

God bless America am I right?

[Juggalo world]

It's about time. It was worse enough that we declared two unjust wars on two nations that had nothing to do with 9/11 and even worse that it lasted for over 10 years, plunged ourselves into trillions of dollars into debt, and killed thousands of innocent Afgani's and Iraqi's supposedly all in the name of demolishing a regime that was supposedly 'anti-freedom' and unlawfully killing Osama Bin Laden without giving him the right to trial by jury for capital offenses. But in reality it was for oil deals and pipelines with Saudi Arabian oil barons who had links to George W. Bush's family.

God bless America am I right?

No those nations supported the terrorist that committed the attacks and all those "civilians" were just insurgents that weren't armed and that scumbag didn't deserve a trial he deserved worse than he got. And keep blaming bush and support Obama who's screwed stuff up worse than he ever did.

[Terra Cecidit]

No those nations supported the terrorist that committed the attacks and all those "civilians" were just insurgents that weren't armed and that scumbag didn't deserve a trial he deserved worse than he got. And keep blaming bush and support Obama who's screwed stuff up worse than he ever did.

I'm going to have fun with this argument.

So let's go ahead and break down your points. Point number one, "no those nations supported the terrorist that committed the attacks..." No, there has never been significant evidence of that. This whole argument your spouting was crap spewed forth by the U.S. Government and Bush administration including the WMDs which they never had. This was used to rile up support for the invasion, and since the U.S. people have just been conveniently scared senseless by 9/11, why wouldn't they agree?

Now, point number two, "...all those "civilians" were just insurgents that weren't armed..." Well, for one they were civilians and that's just the point: they were NOT armed nor posed a threat to U.S. troops. By the U.S. killing unarmed civilians, or combat insurgents in your case, they committed a war crime and the U.S. deserves punishment for such.

Continuing, point number three, "...that scumbag didn't deserve a trial he deserved worse than he got..." It is stated in the U.S. constitution that all people, including non-American citizens, accused of a capital felony against the U.S. have a right to trial by jury. By killing Osama Bin Laden, who was unarmed I might add, another war crime, you violated your own constitution and the rights of Bin Laden.

Last, point number four, "...And keep blaming bush and support Obama who's screwed stuff up worse than he ever did." I'm not blaming Bush in particular nor did I ever state I support Obama. Blaming everything on the president is narrow-minded of which I never did. I'm stating that the U.S. Government exploited the connections the Bush family had with Saudi oil barons to gain economic power and resources for the nation. There are far greater forces at work with 9/11 and the middle eastern wars of which we still don't know the full truth.

Now I assume you will now just tell me I'm a stupid liberal.

[Juggalo world]

No those nations supported the terrorist that committed the attacks and all those "civilians" were just insurgents that weren't armed and that scumbag didn't deserve a trial he deserved worse than he got. And keep blaming bush and support Obama who's screwed stuff up worse than he ever did.

I'm going to have fun with this argument.

So let's go ahead and break down your points. Point number one, "no those nations supported the terrorist that committed the attacks..." No, there has never been significant evidence of that. This whole argument your spouting was crap spewed forth by the U.S. Government and Bush administration including the WMDs which they never had. This was used to rile up support for the invasion, and since the U.S. people have just been conveniently scared senseless by 9/11, why wouldn't they agree?

Now, point number two, "...all those "civilians" were just insurgents that weren't armed..." Well, for one they were civilians and that's just the point: they were NOT armed nor posed a threat to U.S. troops. By the U.S. killing unarmed civilians, or combat insurgents in your case, they committed a war crime and the U.S. deserves punishment for such.

Continuing, point number three, "...that scumbag didn't deserve a trial he deserved worse than he got..." It is stated in the U.S. constitution that all people, including non-American citizens, accused of a capital felony against the U.S. have a right to trial by jury. By killing Osama Bin Laden, who was unarmed I might add, another war crime, you violated your own constitution and the rights of Bin Laden.

Last, point number four, "...And keep blaming bush and support Obama who's screwed stuff up worse than he ever did." I'm not blaming Bush in particular nor did I ever state I support Obama. Blaming everything on the president is narrow-minded of which I never did. I'm stating that the U.S. Government exploited the connections the Bush family had with Saudi oil barons to gain economic power and resources for the nation. There are far greater forces at work with 9/11 and the middle eastern wars of which we still don't know the full truth.

Now I assume you will now just tell me I'm a stupid liberal.

Yes you are possibly a stupid liberal that says the u.s is evil because we don't cry over every person we kill and who's going to punish the U.S for these "war crimes" and no that scumbag would have just be given the death penalty anyway so why bother dragging it out ? He got what he deserved in the end.

[Terra Cecidit]

Yes you are possibly a stupid liberal that says the u.s is evil because we don't cry over every person we kill and who's going to punish the U.S for these "war crimes" and no that scumbag would have just be given the death penalty anyway so why bother dragging it out ? He got what he deserved in the end.

So you support the Military Industrial Complex, violating human rights, violating your own constitution, committing war crimes, and declaring unjust wars? Literally all you have done is restate your last ignorant statement and insult me because you can't argue against me.
Good on you, mate. Good on you.

[Farnhamia]

Yes you are possibly a stupid liberal that says the u.s is evil because we don't cry over every person we kill and who's going to punish the U.S for these "war crimes" and no that scumbag would have just be given the death penalty anyway so why bother dragging it out ? He got what he deserved in the end.

So you support the Military Industrial Complex, violating human rights, violating your own constitution, committing war crimes, and declaring unjust wars? Literally all you have done is restate your last ignorant statement and insult me because you can't argue against me.
Good on you, mate. Good on you.

Both of you knock it off. Terra, you dangled the bait, and Juggalo, you rose to it. Stop it.

[Terra Cecidit]

So you support the Military Industrial Complex, violating human rights, violating your own constitution, committing war crimes, and declaring unjust wars? Literally all you have done is restate your last ignorant statement and insult me because you can't argue against me.
Good on you, mate. Good on you.

Both of you knock it off. Terra, you dangled the bait, and Juggalo, you rose to it. Stop it.

Bait? With all due respect there was no bait. I was presenting a valid argument against Juggalo and he resorts to insults for not being able to argue against it.
I've done nothing wrong except present an argument with nothing but maturity.