LGBT Rights & Issues Thread

[Oneracon]

Gender is an identity, there are no real constraints on it and it is not required to be related to physical sex. So there are more than three genders... last I checked Facebook recognized scores of them.

Physical sex (the organs that you have between your legs) is what is usually limited to penis, vagina, intersex, etc.

I looked up most of the identities on Facebook's list. They all are covered by male, female, both, or neither. The last two (both and neither) seem to be the most important and blurred, as in, both can be titled to the male side while someone who identifies as neither can sometimes be a both. What's the reason for all the labels, it just seems like a way to get people on politically incorrectness.

There are a lot of labels because people can choose whatever label they want, or no label at all. It's not anyone's job to police or gatekeep what people identify as.

Also, this is an aside, but people might get the wrong idea when you use buzzwords like "SJW" and "political (in)correctness" since they're pretty much used to minimize certain political causes and ideas.

[United Socialist Republic of Restonia]

I should have been more clear on the gender specifics.

I'm sexually attracted to males and females. I guess I am put of by transgender individuals, I don't know whether it is just subconscious intolerance of on my part or I'm just not sexually attracted to them.

So, if you were to meeet some one who you considered was attractive if they told you they didn't have the nether regions that matched up to their physical appearance you would be instantly turned off?

I am not completely pansexual, but my tastes cover a broader range than the strictest definition of "bi." I've never seen an FtM transsexual that I thought was attractive, but have been attracted to people in pretty much any other sex/gender category.

Personally, I identify as "bi" and I think "bi" can be applied to anyone that is attracted to more than one gender, regardless of whether it is only the binary genders or if it covers a wider range. I don't see the need to have separate words for bi and pan. Some people get really into the vocabulary, though. Not sure why.

A question I thought of while typing this: Is there a word for preferring androgynous people over either of the binary genders?

It's funny I've seen a FtM who has specifically not undergone complete SRS and I've never found anyone I'm more attracted too, but I've never understood why people get so into vocabulary either, I've known some people who call themselves lesbians/gay despite being attracted to some people of female/male sex respectively. To be honest sometimes I think "Bi" as am identity is a relic of the binary society we ll grew up in is it possible that some one is only attracted to two sexes/gender identities? Yes. But I think it's likely that most bisexual people are attracted to people outside binary but the mainstream binary environment forces to refer to ourselves as Bi for either acceptance or ease of use.

I find this all very fascinating. Personally, I think it is all very subjective and personal. I ID as a homosexual male. I am every bit a guy/ male / man, and I am almost solely attracted to other men / overtly male characteristics in both appearance, psyche, sexually, physically. The lone exception is that I do like breasts of women, but that isnt a sexual thing for me and has almost nothing to do with sexual attraction. I think most people, at least that I have met, like boobs. LOL.

I hope I'm not being too personal here, but while I do almost exclusively prefer sex with men, I have been with females in my past. A few times as a teen, and then a couple times as an adult but those times there was also a male involved as well. What I find even more interesting is that I have found that, while IDing myself as a homosexual male, I have a few times been attracted to FTM that ostensibly appear as men, but still maintain their original female sex organs. However they, in every other way looked like a man in terms of physique, face, facial hair, pecs, abs, butt, etc, and, they also acted and sounded like guys. What I find even more interesting for me, is that, said attraction was enough to take it to a sexual level which I did a couple times with one FTM. The only thing female about this person was between their legs. I was not only able to just perform (which I could with a woman anyway though I would not enjoy it they way that I do with men), but it just about equaled the level of attraction / pleasure that I have when being with normal males. So to me that says that at least for myself sexual attraction has almost as much to do with appearance of the body, how one presents themselves, and general looks, as it does with whats down south. Ostensibly, this person was a man, with that exception. No one would ever know otherwise unless they saw the person naked. They sure did make for an extremely attractive male though.

After that experience it surprised me a bit and made me think a lot about how I ID myself in terms of sexual orientation. I suppose that I am mostly homosexual in many respects, however that might be able to technically be stretched to bi/ pan under certain circumstances. I think this shows that it is highly subjective, personal, and unique to each individual. I'm pretty sure that I am not the only one that has experienced this either. Oddly enough, the FTM previously ID themselves as a straight woman. When this occurred they ID themselves as bi/ pan but also said to me that they largely were more attracted to gay men, and that was what they wanted to be with and possibly fully become. Interesting huh?

[Nazi Flower Power]

So, if you were to meeet some one who you considered was attractive if they told you they didn't have the nether regions that matched up to their physical appearance you would be instantly turned off?



It's funny I've seen a FtM who has specifically not undergone complete SRS and I've never found anyone I'm more attracted too, but I've never understood why people get so into vocabulary either, I've known some people who call themselves lesbians/gay despite being attracted to some people of female/male sex respectively. To be honest sometimes I think "Bi" as am identity is a relic of the binary society we ll grew up in is it possible that some one is only attracted to two sexes/gender identities? Yes. But I think it's likely that most bisexual people are attracted to people outside binary but the mainstream binary environment forces to refer to ourselves as Bi for either acceptance or ease of use.

I find this all very fascinating. Personally, I think it is all very subjective and personal. I ID as a homosexual male. I am every bit a guy/ male / man, and I am almost solely attracted to other men / overtly male characteristics in both appearance, psyche, sexually, physically. The lone exception is that I do like breasts of women, but that isnt a sexual thing for me and has almost nothing to do with sexual attraction. I think most people, at least that I have met, like boobs. LOL.

I hope I'm not being too personal here, but while I do almost exclusively prefer sex with men, I have been with females in my past. A few times as a teen, and then a couple times as an adult but those times there was also a male involved as well. What I find even more interesting is that I have found that, while IDing myself as a homosexual male, I have a few times been attracted to FTM that ostensibly appear as men, but still maintain their original female sex organs. However they, in every other way looked like a man in terms of physique, face, facial hair, pecs, abs, butt, etc, and, they also acted and sounded like guys. What I find even more interesting for me, is that, said attraction was enough to take it to a sexual level which I did a couple times with one FTM. The only thing female about this person was between their legs. I was not only able to just perform (which I could with a woman anyway though I would not enjoy it they way that I do with men), but it just about equaled the level of attraction / pleasure that I have when being with normal males. So to me that says that at least for myself sexual attraction has almost as much to do with appearance of the body, how one presents themselves, and general looks, as it does with whats down south. Ostensibly, this person was a man, with that exception. No one would ever know otherwise unless they saw the person naked. They sure did make for an extremely attractive male though.

After that experience it surprised me a bit and made me think a lot about how I ID myself in terms of sexual orientation. I suppose that I am mostly homosexual in many respects, however that might be able to technically be stretched to bi/ pan under certain circumstances. I think this shows that it is highly subjective, personal, and unique to each individual. I'm pretty sure that I am not the only one that has experienced this either. Oddly enough, the FTM previously ID themselves as a straight woman. When this occurred they ID themselves as bi/ pan but also said to me that they largely were more attracted to gay men, and that was what they wanted to be with and possibly fully become. Interesting huh?

I think a lot of people kind of blur the lines between gay, straight, and bi.

[Nature-Spirits]

I find this all very fascinating. Personally, I think it is all very subjective and personal. I ID as a homosexual male. I am every bit a guy/ male / man, and I am almost solely attracted to other men / overtly male characteristics in both appearance, psyche, sexually, physically. The lone exception is that I do like breasts of women, but that isnt a sexual thing for me and has almost nothing to do with sexual attraction. I think most people, at least that I have met, like boobs. LOL.

I hope I'm not being too personal here, but while I do almost exclusively prefer sex with men, I have been with females in my past. A few times as a teen, and then a couple times as an adult but those times there was also a male involved as well. What I find even more interesting is that I have found that, while IDing myself as a homosexual male, I have a few times been attracted to FTM that ostensibly appear as men, but still maintain their original female sex organs. However they, in every other way looked like a man in terms of physique, face, facial hair, pecs, abs, butt, etc, and, they also acted and sounded like guys. What I find even more interesting for me, is that, said attraction was enough to take it to a sexual level which I did a couple times with one FTM. The only thing female about this person was between their legs. I was not only able to just perform (which I could with a woman anyway though I would not enjoy it they way that I do with men), but it just about equaled the level of attraction / pleasure that I have when being with normal males. So to me that says that at least for myself sexual attraction has almost as much to do with appearance of the body, how one presents themselves, and general looks, as it does with whats down south. Ostensibly, this person was a man, with that exception. No one would ever know otherwise unless they saw the person naked. They sure did make for an extremely attractive male though.

After that experience it surprised me a bit and made me think a lot about how I ID myself in terms of sexual orientation. I suppose that I am mostly homosexual in many respects, however that might be able to technically be stretched to bi/ pan under certain circumstances. I think this shows that it is highly subjective, personal, and unique to each individual. I'm pretty sure that I am not the only one that has experienced this either. Oddly enough, the FTM previously ID themselves as a straight woman. When this occurred they ID themselves as bi/ pan but also said to me that they largely were more attracted to gay men, and that was what they wanted to be with and possibly fully become. Interesting huh?

To be honest, while I appreciate you sharing this story, I don't think it's all that strange that you would be attracted to him. I am exclusively attracted to men, and I find a lot of trans guys very attractive.

[Land of Germany]

I looked up most of the identities on Facebook's list. They all are covered by male, female, both, or neither. The last two (both and neither) seem to be the most important and blurred, as in, both can be titled to the male side while someone who identifies as neither can sometimes be a both. What's the reason for all the labels, it just seems like a way to get people on politically incorrectness.

Sex =/= Gender. For instance, I have a penis, but my gender is not male. I identify within the non-binary umbrella -- but even then, there are many, many different non-binary identities, and no tho are exactly the same. An agender person is different from an androgyne person is different from a neutrois person is different from a genderfluid person is different from [insert non-binary gender here].

Genderfluid is both, agender is neither, androgyny is both, neutrois is neither. I just don't understand why people are coming up with new words to classify something that is already classified. The quaternary male, female, both, and neither just seem way too easy for this crowd to accept. I mean, you're trying to tell me that neutrois is actually a word? How is that not a hipster-like desire to simply be "not normal?"

[Nature-Spirits]

Sex =/= Gender. For instance, I have a penis, but my gender is not male. I identify within the non-binary umbrella -- but even then, there are many, many different non-binary identities, and no tho are exactly the same. An agender person is different from an androgyne person is different from a neutrois person is different from a genderfluid person is different from [insert non-binary gender here].

Genderfluid is both, agender is neither, androgyny is both, neutrois is neither. I just don't understand why people are coming up with new words to classify something that is already classified. The quaternary male, female, both, and neither just seem way too easy for this crowd to accept. I mean, you're trying to tell me that neutrois is actually a word? How is that not a hipster-like desire to simply be "not normal?"

Genderfluid is shifting/switching/flowing between genders, usually without any real pattern. Genderfluid people, unlike most, do not have static genders.
Agender is not having a gender. Agender people (in my experience) do not experience dysphoria, unlike most types of trans people.
Androgyny is being between male and female.
Neutrois is having a gender without reference in the binary.

So you see, they really are all quite different. And no, none of these are "a hipster-like desire to simply be 'not normal'". As a non-binary trans person, I can personally attest to that fact.

[Neutraligon]

Genderfluid is both, agender is neither, androgyny is both, neutrois is neither. I just don't understand why people are coming up with new words to classify something that is already classified. The quaternary male, female, both, and neither just seem way too easy for this crowd to accept. I mean, you're trying to tell me that neutrois is actually a word? How is that not a hipster-like desire to simply be "not normal?"

Genderfluid is shifting/switching/flowing between genders, usually without any real pattern. Genderfluid people, unlike most, do not have static genders.
Agender is not having a gender. Agender people (in my experience) do not experience dysphoria, unlike most types of trans people.
Androgyny is being between male and female.
Neutrois is having a gender without reference in the binary.

So you see, they really are all quite different. And no, none of these are "a hipster-like desire to simply be 'not normal'". As a non-binary trans person, I can personally attest to that fact.

I can't talk for other agender people, but I would find it impossible to feel dysphoria. If you could simply switch the body but leave the personality intact, I would wonder what had happened, be annoyed due to the issues having a different sex would create, but other than that have basically no issue. It is in some ways the exact opposite problem most trans people face.

[Nature-Spirits]

Genderfluid is shifting/switching/flowing between genders, usually without any real pattern. Genderfluid people, unlike most, do not have static genders.
Agender is not having a gender. Agender people (in my experience) do not experience dysphoria, unlike most types of trans people.
Androgyny is being between male and female.
Neutrois is having a gender without reference in the binary.

So you see, they really are all quite different. And no, none of these are "a hipster-like desire to simply be 'not normal'". As a non-binary trans person, I can personally attest to that fact.

I can't talk for other agender people, but I would find it impossible to feel dysphoria. If you could simply switch the body but leave the personality intact, I would wonder what had happened, be annoyed due to the issues having a different sex would create, but other than that have basically no issue. It is in some ways the exact opposite problem most trans people face.

Seeing as, in my personal experience being genderfluid, I've experienced being agender (I actually have been for the past week, which is a nice change), I can understand that; I actually like being agender more than being most of my other genders (aside from male, because when I'm male I actually feel genuinely happy with my assigned gender and body) specifically because of the utter lack of dysphoria.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Sex =/= Gender. For instance, I have a penis, but my gender is not male. I identify within the non-binary umbrella -- but even then, there are many, many different non-binary identities, and no tho are exactly the same. An agender person is different from an androgyne person is different from a neutrois person is different from a genderfluid person is different from [insert non-binary gender here].

Genderfluid is both, agender is neither, androgyny is both, neutrois is neither. I just don't understand why people are coming up with new words to classify something that is already classified. The quaternary male, female, both, and neither just seem way too easy for this crowd to accept. I mean, you're trying to tell me that neutrois is actually a word? How is that not a hipster-like desire to simply be "not normal?"

I agree that some of these are probably different gender expressions rather than completely separate genders -- sort of like a tomboy and a girly girl are different, but still both female. But I actually like the word "neutrois" for people that are neither male nor female. It's nice that it sounds like a normal word rather than technical jargon.

While I don't think government paperwork needs to give you dozens of options when they ask for your gender, there are some contexts where the specific labels are useful.

[Neutraligon]

I can't talk for other agender people, but I would find it impossible to feel dysphoria. If you could simply switch the body but leave the personality intact, I would wonder what had happened, be annoyed due to the issues having a different sex would create, but other than that have basically no issue. It is in some ways the exact opposite problem most trans people face.

Seeing as, in my personal experience being genderfluid, I've experienced being agender (I actually have been for the past week, which is a nice change), I can understand that; I actually like being agender more than being most of my other genders (aside from male, because when I'm male I actually feel genuinely happy with my assigned gender and body) specifically because of the utter lack of dysphoria.

For me since I am not genderfluid and have not experienced having a gender it makes understanding having a gender somewhat hard. Intellectually I think I get it, but it is just really hard for me to relate. I can feel empathy because I know that people who are feeling dysphoria are dealing with highly negative emotions, some of which I have experienced but that is about all. It's why I find these threads so interesting.

[Ashlak]

As someone who is personally skeptical about non binary identities, I don't think most of them are doing it for attention. I think many are just people, both cis and trans, who feel constrained by gender roles that they just throw up their hands and say "fuck it, I'm neither!".

[Land of Germany]

Genderfluid is both, agender is neither, androgyny is both, neutrois is neither. I just don't understand why people are coming up with new words to classify something that is already classified. The quaternary male, female, both, and neither just seem way too easy for this crowd to accept. I mean, you're trying to tell me that neutrois is actually a word? How is that not a hipster-like desire to simply be "not normal?"

Genderfluid is shifting/switching/flowing between genders, usually without any real pattern. Genderfluid people, unlike most, do not have static genders.
Agender is not having a gender. Agender people (in my experience) do not experience dysphoria, unlike most types of trans people.
Androgyny is being between male and female.
Neutrois is having a gender without reference in the binary.

So you see, they really are all quite different. And no, none of these are "a hipster-like desire to simply be 'not normal'". As a non-binary trans person, I can personally attest to that fact.[/quote]

Dutifully rebutted, I concede that they aren't the same, but it just seems like semantics in respect that the only person it affects is the singular person. Someone's agender not being neutrois just seems trivial. I honestly do not know exactly where this feeling of "these people are making it up" comes from. I think it stems from my low-view of the "privilege" thing and using these terms to further marginalize the opinion of majorities. I assume the SJWs think the more complex and diverse the minority, the more they can call people out on their privilege, so I'm turned-off by the ever-expanding vocabulary of gender identities. If you can believe me after that, I honestly don't care if someone identified as a tree, doesn't affect me unless used as I described.

[Neutraligon]

As someone who is personally skeptical about non binary identities, I don't think most of them are doing it for attention. I think many are just people, both cis and trans, who feel constrained by gender roles that they just throw up their hands and say "fuck it, I'm neither!".

Considering I cannot feel dysphoria I would say you are wrong.

[Nature-Spirits]

Seeing as, in my personal experience being genderfluid, I've experienced being agender (I actually have been for the past week, which is a nice change), I can understand that; I actually like being agender more than being most of my other genders (aside from male, because when I'm male I actually feel genuinely happy with my assigned gender and body) specifically because of the utter lack of dysphoria.

For me since I am not genderfluid and have not experienced having a gender it makes understanding having a gender somewhat hard. Intellectually I think I get it, but it is just really hard for me to relate. I can feel empathy because I know that people who are feeling dysphoria are dealing with highly negative emotions, some of which I have experienced but that is about all. It's why I find these threads so interesting.

That's an interesting perspective; I hadn't really thought of that, but I can see not being able to understand gender.

[Ashlak]

As someone who is personally skeptical about non binary identities, I don't think most of them are doing it for attention. I think many are just people, both cis and trans, who feel constrained by gender roles that they just throw up their hands and say "fuck it, I'm neither!".

Considering I cannot feel dysphoria I would say you are wrong.

If you don't feel dysphoria, then why do you think you're trans?

[Neutraligon]

Considering I cannot feel dysphoria I would say you are wrong.

If you don't feel dysphoria, then why do you think you're trans?

I cannot feel dysphoria at all. I have in the past been asked how I would feel if I would one day wake up in the body of a male (I am female). I could honestly answer it would make no difference to me. Unlike most cisgendered individuals who would feel awkward and wrong being in a body of the other sex, I would feel perfectly fine (although there would be the question of what happened and the annoyance of dealing with the legal issues). It is literally impossible for me to feel dysphoria.

For me since I am not genderfluid and have not experienced having a gender it makes understanding having a gender somewhat hard. Intellectually I think I get it, but it is just really hard for me to relate. I can feel empathy because I know that people who are feeling dysphoria are dealing with highly negative emotions, some of which I have experienced but that is about all. It's why I find these threads so interesting.

That's an interesting perspective; I hadn't really thought of that, but I can see not being able to understand gender.

Thanks, I sometimes have a hard time explaining to people why I don't get it. But I really just don't. I try but I don't. Despite that I try not to act like an ass about those things.

[Nature-Spirits]

As someone who is personally skeptical about non binary identities, I don't think most of them are doing it for attention. I think many are just people, both cis and trans, who feel constrained by gender roles that they just throw up their hands and say "fuck it, I'm neither!".

As someone who is non-binary, I would love to be a typical, binary, cis person. I don't like gender roles, but life would be a hell of a lot easier if I could fit within gender norms. So no, I haven't just decided "screw the system, I don't want to fit within a box"; it's too hard not to fit within one of those two boxes, and if I could choose to do so, I would.

[Nature-Spirits]

If you don't feel dysphoria, then why do you think you're trans?

I cannot feel dysphoria at all. I have in the past been asked how I would feel if I would one day wake up in the body of a male (I am female). I could honestly answer it would make no difference to me. Unlike most cisgendered individuals who would feel awkward and wrong being in a body of the other sex, I would feel perfectly fine (although there would be the question of what happened and the annoyance of dealing with the legal issues). It is literally impossible for me to feel dysphoria.

^ This is basically how I feel when I'm agender. And since I have experienced being male, female, and androgyne in addition to being agender, I can tell the difference between being agender and having a gender.

[Neutraligon]

I cannot feel dysphoria at all. I have in the past been asked how I would feel if I would one day wake up in the body of a male (I am female). I could honestly answer it would make no difference to me. Unlike most cisgendered individuals who would feel awkward and wrong being in a body of the other sex, I would feel perfectly fine (although there would be the question of what happened and the annoyance of dealing with the legal issues). It is literally impossible for me to feel dysphoria.

^ This is basically how I feel when I'm agender. And since I have experienced being male, female, and androgyne in addition to being agender, I can tell the difference between being agender and having a gender.

Really silly question, but do you care less about your looks when you are agender (and I don't mean dysphoria)?

[Ashlak]

If you don't feel dysphoria, then why do you think you're trans?

I cannot feel dysphoria at all. I have in the passed been asked how I would feel if I would one day wake up in the body of a male (I am female). I could honestly answer it would make no difference to me. Unlike most cisgendered individuals who would feel awkward and wrong being in a body of the other sex, I would feel perfectly fine (although there would be the question of what happened and the annoyance of dealing with the legal issues). It is literally impossible for me to feel dysphoria.

And how would you know that you would feel fine? You do know that cis people don't necessarily go through out life constantly feeling gender euphoria. Many cis people have a feeling of not being too attached to their gender identity, because everything clicks for them. It's normal.

[Ashlak]

As someone who is personally skeptical about non binary identities, I don't think most of them are doing it for attention. I think many are just people, both cis and trans, who feel constrained by gender roles that they just throw up their hands and say "fuck it, I'm neither!".

As someone who is non-binary, I would love to be a typical, binary, cis person. I don't like gender roles, but life would be a hell of a lot easier if I could fit within gender norms. So no, I haven't just decided "screw the system, I don't want to fit within a box"; it's too hard not to fit within one of those two boxes, and if I could choose to do so, I would.

And why does not fitting in gender roles/norms suddenly mean that you're now neither male or female?

[Neutraligon]

I cannot feel dysphoria at all. I have in the passed been asked how I would feel if I would one day wake up in the body of a male (I am female). I could honestly answer it would make no difference to me. Unlike most cisgendered individuals who would feel awkward and wrong being in a body of the other sex, I would feel perfectly fine (although there would be the question of what happened and the annoyance of dealing with the legal issues). It is literally impossible for me to feel dysphoria.

And how would you know that you would feel fine? You do know that cis people don't necessarily go through out life constantly feeling gender euphoria. Many cis people have a feeling of not being too attached to their gender identity, because everything clicks for them. It's normal.

Because I have tried to think of myself in the body of a male, and had no issue with the image, just like I had no issue with the image of myself in a female body. I did not think me being in a male body any stranger than me being in a female body.

[Nature-Spirits]

^ This is basically how I feel when I'm agender. And since I have experienced being male, female, and androgyne in addition to being agender, I can tell the difference between being agender and having a gender.

Really silly question, but do you care less about your looks when you are agender?

Well, I care about looking good (as always), but I don't care so much about my sex characteristics, and I don't care about what gender I'm presenting as. I guess it would also be fair to say that I don't care whether I look good by the standards of any gender in particular -- that is, when I'm male, I want to look good according to male standards, and when I'm female, I want to look good according to female standards, but when I'm agender, I don't care so much about looking "handsome" or "beautiful" according to either of those standards.

[Neutraligon]

Really silly question, but do you care less about your looks when you are agender?

Well, I care about looking good (as always), but I don't care so much about my sex characteristics, and I don't care about what gender I'm presenting as. I guess it would also be fair to say that I don't care whether I look good by the standards of any gender in particular -- that is, when I'm male, I want to look good according to male standards, and when I'm female, I want to look good according to female standards, but when I'm agender, I don't care so much about looking "handsome" or "beautiful" according to either of those standards.

Maybe that's it, maybe I just don't care about the standards.

[Nature-Spirits]

As someone who is non-binary, I would love to be a typical, binary, cis person. I don't like gender roles, but life would be a hell of a lot easier if I could fit within gender norms. So no, I haven't just decided "screw the system, I don't want to fit within a box"; it's too hard not to fit within one of those two boxes, and if I could choose to do so, I would.

And why does not fitting in gender roles/norms suddenly mean that you're now neither male or female?

Because most of the time, I don't feel male or female, and I don't feel comfortable as male of female. Also, when I'm male, I feel gender euphoria, when I'm female, I feel social and acute body dysphoria, when I'm androgyne, I feel social and mild body dysphoria, and when I'm agender, I feel neither euphoria nor dysphoria. So really, it's not "not fitting in gender roles/norms" -- it's not fitting in the binary genders themselves.