LGBT Rights & Issues Thread

[Nature-Spirits]

No, I mean, I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to by "dress[ing] up as the other gender". If a trans man dresses up in "masculine" clothes, he is not cross-dressing; if a trans woman dresses up in "feminine" clothes, she is not cross-dressing.

Sorry, I forgot how gender is fluid (unlike sex).

I meant sex.

Well, technically, sex can't fit into the binary model either, but I'll let that slide.

So, what you're saying is that when a trans woman or a trans man dresses in the right clothes -- regardless of whether or not they pass -- you're not attracted to them?

[Nazi Flower Power]

I should have been more clear on the gender specifics.

I'm sexually attracted to males and females. I guess I am put of by transgender individuals, I don't know whether it is just subconscious intolerance of on my part or I'm just not sexually attracted to them.

You didn't really clear anything up, to be honest, aside from the fact that you're not attracted to non-binary people. Trans men and trans women are still men and women; they're not some other type of gender.

Some people might still have a preference for whether their partners are cis or trans, especially if we're talking about transgender people that have not undergone SRS and might still have some physical characteristics that are different from a cis person of the same gender.

[Nature-Spirits]

You didn't really clear anything up, to be honest, aside from the fact that you're not attracted to non-binary people. Trans men and trans women are still men and women; they're not some other type of gender.

Some people might still have a preference for whether their partners are cis or trans, especially if we're talking about transgender people that have not undergone SRS and might still have some physical characteristics that are different from a cis person of the same gender.

Oh, I know. It's just that their wording was unclear, so I wasn't sure what exactly they meant.

[Land of Germany]

Besides "because we don't discriminate", why does a sexuality-based discussion include gender in the descriptor. The first three letters are lesbian, gay, and bisexual, but the fourth is transgender. When people are talking about sexuality, why is gender involved, especially considering most of the people in the crowd (lack of a better term, the SJW crowd) say the two are not causally related? To clarify, I mean unrelated as in one persons gender does not determine their sexual attractions. I do not mean one person's gender might not affect another person's attracting to them.

For further clarification, I'm not saying gender rights' importance is different from sexuality rights' importance. I'm asking why discussions about gender and sexuality often meld into a single "item" when the two are assumed by SJWs to not be causally related.

[Ardoki]

Sorry, I forgot how gender is fluid (unlike sex).

I meant sex.

Well, technically, sex can't fit into the binary model either, but I'll let that slide.

So, what you're saying is that when a trans woman or a trans man dresses in the right clothes -- regardless of whether or not they pass -- you're not attracted to them?

That is very, very rare, being born both or neither.

If they had a sex change, or were dressing or acting like the opposite gender they were, no (I think this is intolerance on my part, or perhaps I just prefer certain types). Otherwise yes.

[Oneracon]

Besides "because we don't discriminate", why does a sexuality-based discussion include gender in the descriptor. The first three letters are lesbian, gay, and bisexual, but the fourth is transgender. When people are talking about sexuality, why is gender involved, especially considering most of the people in the crowd (lack of a better term, the SJW crowd) say the two are not causally related? To clarify, I mean unrelated as in one persons gender does not determine their sexual attractions. I do not mean one person's gender might not affect another person's attracting to them.

For further clarification, I'm not saying gender rights' importance is different from sexuality rights' importance. I'm asking why discussions about gender and sexuality often meld into a single "item" when the two are assumed by SJWs to not be causally related.

Gender and sexual minorities are usually grouped together because of similarities in the goals of both movements.

[Neutraligon]

Besides "because we don't discriminate", why does a sexuality-based discussion include gender in the descriptor. The first three letters are lesbian, gay, and bisexual, but the fourth is transgender. When people are talking about sexuality, why is gender involved, especially considering most of the people in the crowd (lack of a better term, the SJW crowd) say the two are not causally related? To clarify, I mean unrelated as in one persons gender does not determine their sexual attractions. I do not mean one person's gender might not affect another person's attracting to them.

For further clarification, I'm not saying gender rights' importance is different from sexuality rights' importance. I'm asking why discussions about gender and sexuality often meld into a single "item" when the two are assumed by SJWs to not be causally related.

Gender and sexual minorities are usually grouped together because of similarities in the goals of both movements.

Also strength in numbers.

[Nazi Flower Power]

A question I thought of while typing this: Is there a word for preferring androgynous people over either of the binary genders?

"Skoliosexual". I don't know anyone who identifies that way, though.

I wonder if it's really that rare or if it's just because people don't know the word for it.

[Olivaero]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Do you mean sex or gender wise?

Okay, as a follow up question, what turns you off about them?

I should have been more clear on the gender specifics.

I'm sexually attracted to males and females. I guess I am put of by transgender individuals, I don't know whether it is just subconscious intolerance of on my part or I'm just not sexually attracted to them.

So, if you were to meeet some one who you considered was attractive if they told you they didn't have the nether regions that matched up to their physical appearance you would be instantly turned off?

Here's a question for the Bisexual peeps of NSG (of which I m one) I personally call myself Bi as a an easier and hassle free way of saying Pan, is there anyone out there who is specifically bisexual and NOT pansexual? For anyone confused as to what pansexual means, basically you can attracted to any combination of sexual characteristics or gender identity, so someone who is bi and NOT pan would be attracted to people who are Male or female but not some one who is say transitioning or someone who's androgynous.

I ask because personally I've never met anyone who is one and not the other, including myself. So, for my own curiosity are you? Or maybe do you know someone who has gone out of their way to say they are one and not the other?

I am not completely pansexual, but my tastes cover a broader range than the strictest definition of "bi." I've never seen an FtM transsexual that I thought was attractive, but have been attracted to people in pretty much any other sex/gender category.

Personally, I identify as "bi" and I think "bi" can be applied to anyone that is attracted to more than one gender, regardless of whether it is only the binary genders or if it covers a wider range. I don't see the need to have separate words for bi and pan. Some people get really into the vocabulary, though. Not sure why.

A question I thought of while typing this: Is there a word for preferring androgynous people over either of the binary genders?

It's funny I've seen a FtM who has specifically not undergone complete SRS and I've never found anyone I'm more attracted too, but I've never understood why people get so into vocabulary either, I've known some people who call themselves lesbians/gay despite being attracted to some people of female/male sex respectively. To be honest sometimes I think "Bi" as am identity is a relic of the binary society we ll grew up in is it possible that some one is only attracted to two sexes/gender identities? Yes. But I think it's likely that most bisexual people are attracted to people outside binary but the mainstream binary environment forces to refer to ourselves as Bi for either acceptance or ease of use.

[Land of Germany]

Besides "because we don't discriminate", why does a sexuality-based discussion include gender in the descriptor. The first three letters are lesbian, gay, and bisexual, but the fourth is transgender. When people are talking about sexuality, why is gender involved, especially considering most of the people in the crowd (lack of a better term, the SJW crowd) say the two are not causally related? To clarify, I mean unrelated as in one persons gender does not determine their sexual attractions. I do not mean one person's gender might not affect another person's attracting to them.

For further clarification, I'm not saying gender rights' importance is different from sexuality rights' importance. I'm asking why discussions about gender and sexuality often meld into a single "item" when the two are assumed by SJWs to not be causally related.

Gender and sexual minorities are usually grouped together because of similarities in the goals of both movements.

But then why are not all "rights" movements, race, gender, sexuality, religion, and so forth grouped?

Also, is there an end to the amount of genders? How can you be anything other than male, female, both (by any amount), or neither? There can't be a third gender; penis, vagina, both, or neither, right? I know these are unrelated, but I'm trying to understand it all.

[Ardoki]

I should have been more clear on the gender specifics.

I'm sexually attracted to males and females. I guess I am put of by transgender individuals, I don't know whether it is just subconscious intolerance of on my part or I'm just not sexually attracted to them.

So, if you were to meeet some one who you considered was attractive if they told you they didn't have the nether regions that matched up to their physical appearance you would be instantly turned off?

Yes.

[Oneracon]

Gender and sexual minorities are usually grouped together because of similarities in the goals of both movements.

But then why are not all "rights" movements, race, gender, sexuality, religion, and so forth grouped?

I don't know.

Also, is there an end to the amount of genders? How can you be anything other than male, female, both (by any amount), or neither? There can't be a third gender; penis, vagina, both, or neither, right? I know these are unrelated, but I'm trying to understand it all.

Gender is an identity, there are no real constraints on it and it is not required to be related to physical sex. So there are more than three genders... last I checked Facebook recognized scores of them.

Physical sex (the organs that you have between your legs) is what is usually limited to penis, vagina, intersex, etc.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Besides "because we don't discriminate", why does a sexuality-based discussion include gender in the descriptor. The first three letters are lesbian, gay, and bisexual, but the fourth is transgender. When people are talking about sexuality, why is gender involved, especially considering most of the people in the crowd (lack of a better term, the SJW crowd) say the two are not causally related? To clarify, I mean unrelated as in one persons gender does not determine their sexual attractions. I do not mean one person's gender might not affect another person's attracting to them.

For further clarification, I'm not saying gender rights' importance is different from sexuality rights' importance. I'm asking why discussions about gender and sexuality often meld into a single "item" when the two are assumed by SJWs to not be causally related.

Both sex and gender can influence who you are attracted to, and society often links the two, even if there are people that disagree with linking them.

[Sun Wukong]

"Skoliosexual". I don't know anyone who identifies that way, though.

I wonder if it's really that rare or if it's just because people don't know the word for it.

It's not rare. It's just usually described other ways. Liking "tomboys," or "thin girls," or "I don't like macho men." I have also heard it suggested that pedophilia is just an extreme version of this. That what pedophiles are really after is the total absence of secondary sexual characteristics. Not that I'm accusing you of anything.

[United Socialist Republic of Restonia]

"Skoliosexual". I don't know anyone who identifies that way, though.

I wonder if it's really that rare or if it's just because people don't know the word for it.

This also raises another interesting question, at least for me. At what point does androgyny end, and transgender begin? Further, when does it end and transgender begin for males, and also females? Does it end when an androgynous male gets breast implants while still maintaining mail genitalia? Or when a female has a breast reduction and / or takes hormones to grow facial hair? By definition, one would still be male / female if they maintain their birth sex genitalia i would imagine, but at what point does one go from androgyny to trans? There seem to be a reasonably sized segment of society that prefers those types as well. I tend to be of the belief that if one is attracted to males, then at least to a certain extent if a female appears to be a male in every way, except where it counts down south, then at least some gay men, and at least bi women may also be attracted to them. Same applies for males mentioned above, with bi or even straight males being attracted to them regardless of whats down south. I suppose even gay men could be as well. Am i totally off base here? just curious.

[Nature-Spirits]

Well, technically, sex can't fit into the binary model either, but I'll let that slide.

So, what you're saying is that when a trans woman or a trans man dresses in the right clothes -- regardless of whether or not they pass -- you're not attracted to them?

That is very, very rare, being born both or neither.

If they had a sex change, or were dressing or acting like the opposite gender they were, no (I think this is intolerance on my part, or perhaps I just prefer certain types). Otherwise yes.

A trans person being true to their gender is not "dressing or acting like the opposite gender they were".

Also, there are some trans people who have not had hormones or SRS, yet pass perfectly. What of them?

[Nature-Spirits]

I wonder if it's really that rare or if it's just because people don't know the word for it.

This also raises another interesting question, at least for me. At what point does androgyny end, and transgender begin? Further, when does it end and transgender begin for males, and also females? Does it end when an androgynous male gets breast implants while still maintaining mail genitalia? Or when a female has a breast reduction and / or takes hormones to grow facial hair? By definition, one would still be male / female if they maintain their birth sex genitalia i would imagine, but at what point does one go from androgyny to trans? There seem to be a reasonably sized segment of society that prefers those types as well. I tend to be of the belief that if one is attracted to males, then at least to a certain extent if a female appears to be a male in every way, except where it counts down south, then at least some gay men, and at least bi women may also be attracted to them. Same applies for males mentioned above, with bi or even straight males being attracted to them regardless of whats down south. I suppose even gay men could be as well. Am i totally off base here? just curious.

For me, it has a lot more to do with the person's gender than their sex, though I will admit that sex characteristics do play a role in whom I'm attracted to. And in my opinion, "where does androgyny end and transgender begin?" has to to with how the person identifies, and nothing to do with how they appear.

[Ardoki]

That is very, very rare, being born both or neither.

If they had a sex change, or were dressing or acting like the opposite gender they were, no (I think this is intolerance on my part, or perhaps I just prefer certain types). Otherwise yes.

A trans person being true to their gender is not "dressing or acting like the opposite gender they were".

Also, there are some trans people who have not had hormones or SRS, yet pass perfectly. What of them?

I'm tired, sorry for not thinking clearly.

I meant sex, once again. I've only just recently discovered that sex and gender are different, a month or two again I thought they were synonyms.

[Land of Germany]

Gender is an identity, there are no real constraints on it and it is not required to be related to physical sex. So there are more than three genders... last I checked Facebook recognized scores of them.

Physical sex (the organs that you have between your legs) is what is usually limited to penis, vagina, intersex, etc.

I looked up most of the identities on Facebook's list. They all are covered by male, female, both, or neither. The last two (both and neither) seem to be the most important and blurred, as in, both can be titled to the male side while someone who identifies as neither can sometimes be a both. What's the reason for all the labels, it just seems like a way to get people on politically incorrectness.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

Well, technically, sex can't fit into the binary model either, but I'll let that slide.

So, what you're saying is that when a trans woman or a trans man dresses in the right clothes -- regardless of whether or not they pass -- you're not attracted to them?

That is very, very rare, being born both or neither.

If they had a sex change, or were dressing or acting like the opposite gender they were, no (I think this is intolerance on my part, or perhaps I just prefer certain types). Otherwise yes.

I'm not sure what to make of this

[United Socialist Republic of Restonia]

This also raises another interesting question, at least for me. At what point does androgyny end, and transgender begin? Further, when does it end and transgender begin for males, and also females? Does it end when an androgynous male gets breast implants while still maintaining mail genitalia? Or when a female has a breast reduction and / or takes hormones to grow facial hair? By definition, one would still be male / female if they maintain their birth sex genitalia i would imagine, but at what point does one go from androgyny to trans? There seem to be a reasonably sized segment of society that prefers those types as well. I tend to be of the belief that if one is attracted to males, then at least to a certain extent if a female appears to be a male in every way, except where it counts down south, then at least some gay men, and at least bi women may also be attracted to them. Same applies for males mentioned above, with bi or even straight males being attracted to them regardless of whats down south. I suppose even gay men could be as well. Am i totally off base here? just curious.

For me, it has a lot more to do with the person's gender than their sex, though I will admit that sex characteristics do play a role in whom I'm attracted to. And in my opinion, "where does androgyny end and transgender begin?" has to to with how the person identifies, and nothing to do with how they appear.

That has basically been my thought as well, however typically I have found that the ones that take it to a high level, while maintaining their original birth sex, are still trans to me as they seem to ID themselves as opposite even though they have their original equipment. The men that dress and act more feminine than most , and the same with women I dont gnerally see as being trans in anyway usually.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I wonder if it's really that rare or if it's just because people don't know the word for it.

It's not rare. It's just usually described other ways. Liking "tomboys," or "thin girls," or "I don't like macho men." I have also heard it suggested that pedophilia is just an extreme version of this. That what pedophiles are really after is the total absence of secondary sexual characteristics. Not that I'm accusing you of anything.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it would be that rare. I am not sure about the pedophilia thing, though, because kids are different from androgynous adults.

[Nature-Spirits]

Gender is an identity, there are no real constraints on it and it is not required to be related to physical sex. So there are more than three genders... last I checked Facebook recognized scores of them.

Physical sex (the organs that you have between your legs) is what is usually limited to penis, vagina, intersex, etc.

I looked up most of the identities on Facebook's list. They all are covered by male, female, both, or neither. The last two (both and neither) seem to be the most important and blurred, as in, both can be titled to the male side while someone who identifies as neither can sometimes be a both. What's the reason for all the labels, it just seems like a way to get people on politically incorrectness.

Sex =/= Gender. For instance, I have a penis, but my gender is not male. I identify within the non-binary umbrella -- but even then, there are many, many different non-binary identities, and no tho are exactly the same. An agender person is different from an androgyne person is different from a neutrois person is different from a genderfluid person is different from [insert non-binary gender here].

[Nazi Flower Power]

I wonder if it's really that rare or if it's just because people don't know the word for it.

This also raises another interesting question, at least for me. At what point does androgyny end, and transgender begin? Further, when does it end and transgender begin for males, and also females? Does it end when an androgynous male gets breast implants while still maintaining mail genitalia? Or when a female has a breast reduction and / or takes hormones to grow facial hair? By definition, one would still be male / female if they maintain their birth sex genitalia i would imagine, but at what point does one go from androgyny to trans? There seem to be a reasonably sized segment of society that prefers those types as well. I tend to be of the belief that if one is attracted to males, then at least to a certain extent if a female appears to be a male in every way, except where it counts down south, then at least some gay men, and at least bi women may also be attracted to them. Same applies for males mentioned above, with bi or even straight males being attracted to them regardless of whats down south. I suppose even gay men could be as well. Am i totally off base here? just curious.

I think the line between androgynous and trans is dependent on how people identify themselves.

[Nature-Spirits]

For me, it has a lot more to do with the person's gender than their sex, though I will admit that sex characteristics do play a role in whom I'm attracted to. And in my opinion, "where does androgyny end and transgender begin?" has to to with how the person identifies, and nothing to do with how they appear.

That has basically been my thought as well, however typically I have found that the ones that take it to a high level, while maintaining their original birth sex, are still trans to me as they seem to ID themselves as opposite even though they have their original equipment. The men that dress and act more feminine than most , and the same with women I dont gnerally see as being trans in anyway usually.

My thoughts on it: if someone identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth, they are cis. If someone identifies as a gender other than that which they were assigned at birth, they are trans.