Should we be siding with the Soviets or the Nazis? [1935]

[The Serbian Empire]

Soviets, they aren't invading Poland yet.

[Nervium]

Well, Hitler and his buds, Hirohito and Mussolini having been jingoing around the world, I think this "Stalin" fellow is truly the lesser of evils.

[Farnhamia]

Soviets, they aren't invading Poland yet.

No one is, it's 1935.

[Peterovia]

Nazi,a land of barbarians,now you can see in EU!!!

[Granadeseret]

Bolshevism and the threat is poses to both American and all other Western societies has to be contained. Indeed, we have many things in common with the German nation; our desire to rectify the problems brought on by The Great War, our similarities in government support of economic activity to rescue Capitalism from its greatest excesses, rather then scrapping it for some, god forbid, Communist system. Not to mention, the Germans aren't making the most unreasonable in the world; if ethnically German territories wish to join with Germany, we ought to support that over Soviet domination of its various ethnic groups. We also have much closer economic and social ties to the Germans, and if they are willing to keep their excesses confined to areas in which self-determination would likely lead to them joining Germany anyway, if not for the terms of Versailles (in which, I might remind you, the Entente we funded, fed and saved sold out Wilson's points and ideals and turned the war into another colonial land-grab), where as the Soviets and their call for global revolution can not possibly be translated as anything remotely friendly to our capitalist (if somewhat interventionist) society.

But by Austrian and German Cooperation they have broken the Treaty of Versailles. Besides Socialism isn't that bad at all. I may be one of the few Americans whom have read Karl Marx's works. I quite like these ideas.

The Treaty of Versailles was a nightmarish slap in the face against America's voice in the proceedings, by violating nearly ever one of Wilson's points, turning the Ottoman Empire into a bunch of artificial, unstable colonies, and violated the rights of ethnic Germans to self-determination. If Austria wishes to unite with Germany, then my all rights as a sovereign nation they can dispose of themselves as they will. America ought to be, if she is to put herself into European politics at all, a force supporting those rights we fought for in The Great War, not the oppressive regime of the Soviets.

As for Socialism, it is a slap in the face to the American culture of self-improvement, hard work, and representative government. Certainly, (as nobody would deny after Roosevelt's plans) Capitalism does need some intervention from time to time, to save itself from its worst excesses, but the American system of Progressive Capitalism has not failed us yet, and I fail to see how well a radical policy shift would go down with the population at large. Not to mention, the Germans have not laid the label of all free markets and representative nations as "Oppressive" (We are the very beacon of liberty; and while that means more then being left alone, it does not mean the government ought to suffocate us). Stalin and his massive collectivization is hardly what is labeled in Marx... and even if it is, no sain man would want so much bloodshed and chaos to make change when we in American can simply instigate it in the ballot box.

[Kadolha]

I would be sides with the Soviets, cause I hate Nazis. Nazis done lots of evil stuff to Jews.

[Guadalupador]

Aren't we in the middle of a depression? Why the hell should we be siding with anyone out there in Europe? That isn't our problem to deal with, we need to focus on what's happening over here, in America. Not in Germany, with that Hitler character, or in Russia with what's-his-name.

[Mefpan]

Well, Hitler and his buds, Hirohito and Mussolini having been jingoing around the world, I think this "Stalin" fellow is truly the lesser of evils.

Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini? Friends?

Hey, I know they're all kinda-sorta fascist or worse, but they're the last thing I'd call friends. Hitler and Mussolini will never finish butting heads over the issue of Austria as it stands and when it comes to Hirohito, I do believe Japan is not exactly fond of Germany's aid programme to the Chinese Nationalists.

And Italy and Japan don't seem to care for one another.

[Granadeseret]

I would be sides with the Soviets, cause I hate Nazis. Nazis done lots of evil stuff to Jews.

The Jews? I fail to see how that is a huge issue. Almost everybody I know isen't particularly fond of those recluse heretics. Haven't you ever read about the Zionist Plot?

[2014] 1935, remember. Antisemitism was hardly rare in American society) [/2014]

[Nervium]

Well, Hitler and his buds, Hirohito and Mussolini having been jingoing around the world, I think this "Stalin" fellow is truly the lesser of evils.

Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini? Friends?

Hey, I know they're all kinda-sorta fascist or worse, but they're the last thing I'd call friends. Hitler and Mussolini will never finish butting heads over the issue of Austria as it stands and when it comes to Hirohito, I do believe Japan is not exactly fond of Germany's aid programme to the Chinese Nationalists.

And Italy and Japan don't seem to care for one another.

Well, I stand by my point, Stalin is the least of our worries, this Hirohito fellow...
I don't trust them Japanese.

[Mefpan]

Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini? Friends?

Hey, I know they're all kinda-sorta fascist or worse, but they're the last thing I'd call friends. Hitler and Mussolini will never finish butting heads over the issue of Austria as it stands and when it comes to Hirohito, I do believe Japan is not exactly fond of Germany's aid programme to the Chinese Nationalists.

And Italy and Japan don't seem to care for one another.

Well, I stand by my point, Stalin is the least of our worries, this Hirohito fellow...
I don't trust them Japanese.

Perhaps turning them against the Soviets would be an alternative? They can't reasonably touch our mainland even with their fleet - but considering their expansionist ambitions it's safe to say that most of their worries lie in Asia. They have the same problem as Germany - if they win, they'll be tied down by having to try and control their gains as a whole. The Soviets are just too dangerous to side with as an ally.

[Corenea]

We should not side with either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. We should side with France, Great Britain, Poland, and Czechoslovakia.

In 1935? Neither the Germans nor the Soviets are menacing any of those countries.

I just support Poland and Czechoslovakia, is that wrong? And I also support Finland

[Great Nepal]

Surely it must be Germany.
Firstly, as its been mentioned USSR has the ability to hold Germany but vice versa isnt true. This puts USA in an unique and interesting position. Say USSR defeats Germany, we have to contend with an empire that spans from east asia to half of Europe. On the flipside if Germany defeats USSR, we have an empire that is faced with multitudes of internal rebellions which it cannot supress; ie a crumbling empire. When this empire inevitably collapses, US can ride in to rescue it and rest of Europe with goal of creating freindly governments throughout Europe and east Asia. Then. sun shall never set on American Empire.
Secondly, there is issue of Britain. We are on freindly terms however, Canada which is naturally part of US still remains a British dependency; situation that can be rectified bloodlessly if war against Germany forces the British empire to seek funds, which I feel will occur.

[Kanadrin]

The Nazi's are a bunch of deluded idiots who've perverted Fascism by combining their own racist ideals with Socialist policies.

The Soviet's are a bunch of deluded idiots who think they can make a totally free and equal utopian society by killing their people and making them poor.

Let's bomb both of their worthless asses.

Because Merica!

I recommend researching a plan in 1939, known as Operation Red. The Blues, America, would invade Canada simultaneous to the Nazi Sea Lion invasion, destroying the British Empire and cementing our relations... for now.

With Canada in our grasp, our industrial power is greatly increased. Japan wouldn't dare touch our Hawaiian Islands, seeing our efficiency in Canada. By supporting the Nazis, they would eventually defeat the Soviets. Japan, under pressure, would attack nonetheless, but later. Being weaker due to a lack of oil and resources, the United States would defeat Japan. The Germans, although strenthened by Soviet oil, would not be able to compete with American power, especially that from the combined US-Canada resources alone. The United States should then invade Mexico and the lower countries, forming an empire to dominate the world.

BWAHAAHAA! Even I scare myself sometimes with my fantasies...

[Farnhamia]

The Nazi's are a bunch of deluded idiots who've perverted Fascism by combining their own racist ideals with Socialist policies.

The Soviet's are a bunch of deluded idiots who think they can make a totally free and equal utopian society by killing their people and making them poor.

Let's bomb both of their worthless asses.

Because Merica!

I recommend researching an plan in 1939, known as Operation Red. The Blues, America, would invade Canada simultaneous to the Nazi Sea Lion invasion, destroying the British Empire and cementing our relations... for now.

With Canada in our grasp, our industrial power is greatly increased. Japan wouldn't dare touch our Hawaiian Islands, seeing our efficiency in Canada. By supporting the Nazis, they would eventually defeat the Soviets. Japan, under pressure, would attack nonetheless, but later. Being weaker due to a lack of oil and resources, the United States would defeat Japan. The Germans, although strenthened by Soviet oil, would not be able to compete with American power, especially that from the combined US-Canada resources alone. The United States should then invade Mexico and the lower countries, forming an empire to dominate the world.

BWAHAAHAA! Even I scare myself sometimes with my fantasies...

[2014] It's only 1935 for this debate. [/2014]

[Kanadrin]

Because Merica!

I recommend researching an plan in 1939, known as Operation Red. The Blues, America, would invade Canada simultaneous to the Nazi Sea Lion invasion, destroying the British Empire and cementing our relations... for now.

With Canada in our grasp, our industrial power is greatly increased. Japan wouldn't dare touch our Hawaiian Islands, seeing our efficiency in Canada. By supporting the Nazis, they would eventually defeat the Soviets. Japan, under pressure, would attack nonetheless, but later. Being weaker due to a lack of oil and resources, the United States would defeat Japan. The Germans, although strenthened by Soviet oil, would not be able to compete with American power, especially that from the combined US-Canada resources alone. The United States should then invade Mexico and the lower countries, forming an empire to dominate the world.

BWAHAAHAA! Even I scare myself sometimes with my fantasies...

[2014] It's only 1935 for this debate. [/2014]

Perhaps, but German sympathizers in the government date to 1933 and before. Operation Red has always been a plan, only officialized in 1939.

[Sun Wukong]

In 1935 the choice should really be more, "Japan or China."

[The Time Alliance]

In 1935 the choice should really be more, "Japan or China."

China...Japan is too much of an aggressor. I don't trust them what-so-ever.

[Corenea]

In 1935 the choice should really be more, "Japan or China."

My choice is obvious, Poland

[Occupied Deutschland]

This is a false dilemma. All evidence we have points towards the Nazis and Soviets barely restraining a mutual hatred for one another. America need not involve itself in the affairs of Europe at this juncture, especially not to such a level where we begin to provide any kind of support, moral or physical, to either of these dictatorial regimes. Give them time and both Germany and the USSR shall be at each others throats and decimate each other. Hitler obviously bears no good will towards the Bolsheviks, even if he does pin the movement on domestic Jews for the moment for some inexplicable reason. If conflict arises it will undoubtedly be between Hitler and Stalin, we need not concern ourselves with the as-yet-to-be petty wars of European dictators.

[Great Kleomentia]

Should i eat my shit or drink my piss?

[Granadeseret]

This is a false dilemma. All evidence we have points towards the Nazis and Soviets barely restraining a mutual hatred for one another. America need not involve itself in the affairs of Europe at this juncture, especially not to such a level where we begin to provide any kind of support, moral or physical, to either of these dictatorial regimes. Give them time and both Germany and the USSR shall be at each others throats and decimate each other. Hitler obviously bears no good will towards the Bolsheviks, even if he does pin the movement on domestic Jews for the moment for some inexplicable reason. If conflict arises it will undoubtedly be between Hitler and Stalin, we need not concern ourselves with the as-yet-to-be petty wars of European dictators.

Actually... such a war would be in our vital interests, even if we don't have particularly strong ties to either nation at the moment. Both appear... at least rhetorically, in the case of the Germans, highly militaristic, and if relations are as strained as you say, I highly doubt a war between them would result in anything other then complete annihilation of the other (at least politically; puppets may or may not be involved) which would leave that party in control of a sphere stretching from Central Europe all the way to Asia, which would have some... troubling affects on the balance of power, and the security of both or trade and our psudeo-allied in London and Paris (and who knows what Poland, a country disliked by both its neighbors, would end up as?) To be on that power's good side, and strike down the greater evil, would generate good will and dependence which will allow us to sustain a balance of power that will avoid this exploding into another Great War... which nobody would wish to fight.

[Kelinfort]

I would be sides with the Soviets, cause I hate Nazis. Nazis done lots of evil stuff to Jews.

They are anti Semitic, I agree, but at least they haven't started mass killing...or will they?

[Kelinfort]

In 1935 the choice should really be more, "Japan or China."

My choice is obvious, Poland

Ignacy Mościciki sends his regards.

[Of the Quendi]

Well, if I were the USA I would have sided with Nazi Germany precisely because they were a threat to Britain. We would supply them to undermine and fight the British, or at least weaken them. I could then make a land grab for Canada when Germany goes to war with the British...

Once we have Canada, we can continue with our isolationism... if necessary, we could acquire additional colonies in South America... Once the rest of the world destroys itself through World War, we could move out and pick up all the pieces.

Since Germany is our ally and their rhetoric is so anti-Russian... I expect the two would have gone off to war, it doesn't matter who wins because we would just pick up the pieces. The Nazis can easily be played to go to war against the rest of Europe. Germany should do quite well against Russia and maybe even win because they have our support. We could always invade Russia from the other side too if necessary to facilitate German victory.

See we want Germany to win because Germany can't effectively occupy Russia... but we know Russia can effectively occupy Germany. It's a manpower issue, we don't want a strong Russia we would later have to fight. So give the Germans their ''victory''... it improves our position on the board because it gives the Germans a lot of burden.

I expect at the end of all, the USA will rule the world. Maybe not directly, but definitely behind the scenes at the very least as the real superpower. Europe would have destroyed itself and there would be no Cold War because we would have made sure Russia lost... Germany doesn't have the industrial base to ever match the USA.

America wins...

Thats silly

Even if we totally disregard America's values and focus only on narrow self-interest what you are proposing is a waste of resources and involve a lot of risks for few gains.

First of all what would be the motivation for an invasion/annexation of Canada? Its an allied country, arguably within the US sphere of influence and if it isn't then it certainly will be soon. Why waste manpower and resources first taking this huge place and then hold it against what will presumably be fairly disgruntled native aspirations? Invading Canada will cost the US international goodwill, its trade with the British Empire and probably have every country in the Americas balancing against the US like crazy. An entirely undesirable situation.

Secondly if annexing Canada is really a goal worth pursuing it doesn't necessarily require an ally. A Europe wide war with Germany and the UK on opposite sides is going to occur whether the US allies with one of the parties or not. Invade unilaterally and if the UK gets annoyed threaten to ally with Germany. It is not inconceivable that the UK will be too concerned about ending up facing the US and Germany at the same time to go to war over an invasion of Canada. And if they aren't then America can then ally with Germany and no harm was done waiting.

But assuming US does as you propose in Canada and then do isolationism; it has now lost its international reputation, access to huge foreign markets and has to deal with the occupation instead of getting out of the depression. As it enters isolationism and abandons its German ally to deal with UK-France-Soviets-Etc. the US ensures that no one will ever trust it again while the South America the US should supposedly find colonies in is allying with pretty much anyone against the US.

In the rest of the world WWII then begins. Germany, owing the US nothing, supports a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor while fighting Russia, the UK and France. Allyless the US now fights Japan while the Soviets prepares to defend the Motherland. A US invasion of Siberia is largely thwarted by the ability of the Japanese navy to prevent it at least for the first few years of the war. What troops may eventually reach Siberia has the unenviable task ahead of them of fighting across thousands of kilometers of sparsely settled, frost cold Siberia. In Europe Germany is probably bested (the alternative can't entirely be ruled out but I doubt Germany would have won if the US provided what appears to be sporadic assistance to Germany) by the Soviets. Without Marshall help and owing the entirety of its liberation to Stalin (and having no powerful ally to help resist) a greater portion of Europe turns toward communism and the Soviets. The parts that doesn't (chiefly the UK) has no reason to be friendly with the Americans.

The Euro-Soviet axis now dominates the world and isolates America.