Swiss vote to bring back immigration laws

[Arkinesia]

I'm not speaking of just laws, I'm speaking of general good governance, in which the people of Switzerland clearly have no interest.

But as already mentioned earlier in the discussion, Switzerland is bound by bilateral treaty to grant freedom of movement, so you're wrong anyway..

Bullshit on both counts. Treaties can be cancelled by the people if it does not serve their needs. That's why Switzerland is a democracy and why you're against democracy. Besides as history as shown: all your preferred socialist paradises are corrupt dictatorships. All of them. The Swiss people rule Switzerland - not a pseudocommie like you who isn't even Swiss.

“Pseudocommie”? “Socialist”?

Broseph, I'm a strong capitalist, a neoliberal, and unrestricted democracy has a proven track record of failure so I don't know why you're plugging international anarchy (which is what informal rejections of international treaties are) on this kind of scale.

“Left-wing pipe dream”? Lol. Immigration freedom has been supported by, among others, Milton Friedman and Jeffrey Sachs, who are decidedly right-wing and centrist, respectively. Not to mention two of the greatest economists in history.

They were not good economists.

Friedman inspired the departure from the failing gold standard in the US, and Sachs has essentially recommended the opposite of US foreign aid policy since the Clinton administration. So I don't see how they are/were not good economists.

[Free Tristania]

Bullshit on both counts. Treaties can be cancelled by the people if it does not serve their needs. That's why Switzerland is a democracy and why you're against democracy. Besides as history as shown: all your preferred socialist paradises are corrupt dictatorships. All of them. The Swiss people rule Switzerland - not a pseudocommie like you who isn't even Swiss.

“Pseudocommie”? “Socialist”?

Broseph, I'm a strong capitalist, a neoliberal, and unrestricted democracy has a proven track record of failure so I don't know why you're plugging international anarchy (which is what informal rejections of international treaties are) on this kind of scale.

And that's why you support state-enforced multiculturalism even when the people are against it. A bit like the liberals in the U.S and the left here. Besides: you're wrong about democracy. Switzerland is everything that America is not: a country ruled by and for the people, independent, actually rich and free of corruption.

“Left-wing pipe dream”? Lol. Immigration freedom has been supported by, among others, Milton Friedman and Jeffrey Sachs, who are decidedly right-wing and centrist, respectively. Not to mention two of the greatest economists in history.

They were not good economists.

Friedman inspired the departure from the failing gold standard in the US, and Sachs has essentially recommended the opposite of US foreign aid policy since the Clinton administration. So I don't see how they are/were not good economists.

Capitalism has not been a very good system either. Very unstable.

[Arkinesia]

And that's why you support state-enforced multiculturalism even when the people are against it. A bit like the liberals in the U.S and the left here.

I am an American. Immigration freedom is proven to lead to economic growth and greater prosperity for all citizens. Furthermore, it's not “state-enforced multiculturalism,” it would be the Swiss following treaties to which they are signatories. Would you prefer international chaos? Because that's what you're endorsing here.

Capitalism has not been a very good system either. Very unstable.

So, let me guess—democratic socialism? A system that is only sustainable for short periods before falling apart due to lack of liquidity?

[Free Tristania]

And that's why you support state-enforced multiculturalism even when the people are against it. A bit like the liberals in the U.S and the left here.

I am an American. Immigration freedom is proven to lead to economic growth and greater prosperity for all citizens. Furthermore, it's not “state-enforced multiculturalism,” it would be the Swiss following treaties to which they are signatories. Would you prefer international chaos? Because that's what you're endorsing here.

That explains it: lack of understanding of Europe. Look at a map at how densely populated Switzerland is. What good does it do them to be flooded with immigrants who also happen to lower their wages and destroy social security. Never mind crime.

Capitalism has not been a very good system either. Very unstable.

So, let me guess—democratic socialism? A system that is only sustainable for short periods before falling apart due to lack of liquidity?

No. Look up social democracy and corporatism. It has driven Western Europe for the past 60 years and made us richer than America. Look up Rhenish Capitalism, Nordic Model etc. Polder Model.

[Arkinesia]

I am an American. Immigration freedom is proven to lead to economic growth and greater prosperity for all citizens. Furthermore, it's not “state-enforced multiculturalism,” it would be the Swiss following treaties to which they are signatories. Would you prefer international chaos? Because that's what you're endorsing here.

That explains it: lack of understanding of Europe. Look at a map at how densely populated Switzerland is. What good does it do them to be flooded with immigrants who also happen to lower their wages and destroy social security. Never mind crime.

Ir-fucking-relevant. You sign a treaty, you follow it. No exceptions (the US is hideously guilty of not following this principle).

Additionally, the Nordic model is democratic socialist in nature. Do you even know what the hell you're talking about in any of this? You seem really out of your depth here.

[Free Tristania]

That explains it: lack of understanding of Europe. Look at a map at how densely populated Switzerland is. What good does it do them to be flooded with immigrants who also happen to lower their wages and destroy social security. Never mind crime.

Ir-fucking-relevant. You sign a treaty, you follow it. No exceptions (the US is hideously guilty of not following this principle).

Additionally, the Nordic model is democratic socialist in nature. Do you even know what the hell you're talking about in any of this? You seem really out of your depth here.

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but we can't expect an American to be informed about other systems or indeed other countries. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ? Let me assure you: it's not next to China. A welfare state does not equal socialism. That may actually be new for you.

[Agritum]

Ir-fucking-relevant. You sign a treaty, you follow it. No exceptions (the US is hideously guilty of not following this principle).

Additionally, the Nordic model is democratic socialist in nature. Do you even know what the hell you're talking about in any of this? You seem really out of your depth here.

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but from an American we can't expect him to be informed about other systems. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ?

Could you just stop being so fucking prejudiced? It's not really helping your credibility here.

[Free Tristania]

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but from an American we can't expect him to be informed about other systems. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ?

Could you just stop being so fucking prejudiced? It's not really helping your credibility here.

No. It's not prejudiced. I actually wish it was. Prejudiced are based on something that is not real. American ignorance about other countries certainly is very real and quite infamous around the world.

Let me recapitulate: here we an American that wants to override a democratic process in another country from which he knows naught only because his ideas tell him that its good. Then he makes the mistake of equating the Nordic Model (social market economy) with socialism. Yet again: a clear signal of his incredible ignorance.

[Divair]

Ir-fucking-relevant. You sign a treaty, you follow it. No exceptions (the US is hideously guilty of not following this principle).

Additionally, the Nordic model is democratic socialist in nature. Do you even know what the hell you're talking about in any of this? You seem really out of your depth here.

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but we can't expect an American to be informed about other systems or indeed other countries. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ? Let me assure you: it's not next to China. A welfare state does not equal socialism. That may actually be new for you.

*yawn*
Ad hominems are so boooooooooooring.

[Arkinesia]

Ir-fucking-relevant. You sign a treaty, you follow it. No exceptions (the US is hideously guilty of not following this principle).

Additionally, the Nordic model is democratic socialist in nature. Do you even know what the hell you're talking about in any of this? You seem really out of your depth here.

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but from an American we can't expect him to be informed about other systems. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ?

*sighs*

Switzerland is a central European nation, located in the old Prussian sector, bordered by, among others, Germany and Austria. It has three official languages—those being Italian, French, and German. There is a myth that there is a Swiss language, but it does not exist.

Maybe you like to think all Americans are uneducated, but I'm sorry to break it to you—not all of us are uncultured jackasses (though I prefer the Russian expression “nekulturny,” not least since the work of Tom Clancy has embedded in me a greater appreciation for Russian culture). Some of us were raised by parents who wanted us to learn about the world and some of that group (myself included) actually wanted to. I don't see how the Nordic model fits a different archetype from democratic socialism though—universal healthcare, the significant presence of a welfare state, and wide guarantees of rights, including some not included in the UDHR.

I would say that the Nordic model allows for a greater presence of a free market from central and southern European democratic socialist systems, but a) that's not saying much, and b) it's still democratic socialism.

Also, I see you're a hardcore democratist. Well, I miss being 15 too.

[Novo Portugal]

So essentially get rid of switserland?

The results of this referendum made me prouder to be of Arpitan descent.

Go Portugaliza, Catalonia, Occitania and Arpitania!

No, If Galiza wants to join, let them, but Portugal remains Portugal and Portuguese.

[Free Tristania]

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but we can't expect an American to be informed about other systems or indeed other countries. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ? Let me assure you: it's not next to China. A welfare state does not equal socialism. That may actually be new for you.

*yawn*
Ad hominems are so boooooooooooring.

It's just giving it right back to him. Some facts about the Nordic Model.

* flexicurity
*only essential companies are in state hands
*workers are united in unions, employers in employers organisations and they together set the rules of the game. The state just puts down its signature validating the accord.
* universal healthcare and welfare state.
*no minimum wages

[Arkinesia]

*yawn*
Ad hominems are so boooooooooooring.

It's just giving it right back to him. Some facts about the Nordic Model.

* flexicurity
*only essential companies are in state hands
*workers are united in unions, employers in employers organisations and they together set the rules of the game. The state just puts down its signature validating the accord.
* universal healthcare and welfare state.
*no minimum wages

I mean, as a neoliberal, I support certain facets of the Nordic model (though to be frank, my favorite part of it is the justice systems, best typified by Norway, imo), it's just that to call the overall model full-blown capitalism is just…factually wrong.

[Free Tristania]

That leaves you horrible wrong on both counts. Treaties are only worth something if backed by the people. Not by an elite. You're just completely against democracy. Particularly if such is the law of the land as it is in Switzerland.

And no: you're completely out of your depth here. The Nordic model has nothing to do with socialism but from an American we can't expect him to be informed about other systems. Americans, in general, in horrible uneducated when it comes to other countries. Do you actually know where Switzerland is located ?

*sighs*

Switzerland is a central European nation, located in the old Prussian sector, bordered by, among others, Germany and Austria. It has three official languages—those being Italian, French, and German. There is a myth that there is a Swiss language, but it does not exist.

Maybe you like to think all Americans are uneducated, but I'm sorry to break it to you—not all of us are uncultured jackasses (though I prefer the Russian expression “nekulturny,” not least since the work of Tom Clancy has embedded in me a greater appreciation for Russian culture). Some of us were raised by parents who wanted us to learn about the world and some of that group (myself included) actually wanted to. I don't see how the Nordic model fits a different archetype from democratic socialism though—universal healthcare, the significant presence of a welfare state, and wide guarantees of rights, including some not included in the UDHR.

I would say that the Nordic model allows for a greater presence of a free market from central and southern European democratic socialist systems, but a) that's not saying much, and b) it's still democratic socialism.

Also, I see you're a hardcore democratist. Well, I miss being 15 too.

I would read up on the Nordic Model if I were you and then come back. Some information about Switzerland because there is no Prussian sector. Switzerland is a country landlocked between Germany, Austria, Italy, Liechtenstein and France. They speak four languages and are divided into cantons with a system not too dissimilar from the American federal way.

Another note: most of the country is mountainous. Conclusion: space is limited. What good do migrant workers do ? Nothing. Not in labour (they lower wages), not in safety (crime rise), not in the population (the country is overpopulated as it is). Clearly you were unaware of that.

[Free Tristania]

It's just giving it right back to him. Some facts about the Nordic Model.

* flexicurity
*only essential companies are in state hands
*workers are united in unions, employers in employers organisations and they together set the rules of the game. The state just puts down its signature validating the accord.
* universal healthcare and welfare state.
*no minimum wages

I mean, as a neoliberal, I support certain facets of the Nordic model (though to be frank, my favorite part of it is the justice systems, best typified by Norway, imo), it's just that to call the overall model full-blown capitalism is just…factually wrong.

It is a very mixed system which makes it much more stable than full-blown capitalism which is a piss poor system with contempt for human values and human lives.

[Viritica]

Good. Switzerland shouldn't involve itself in that whole EU mess.

[Free Tristania]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y-2007.png

In 2007. Population density The yellow part is the Alps.

Because a lof of Americans (who are used to having lots and lots of space) don't quite understand how full Europe is:

http://i.imgur.com/18BoVSI.jpg

[Arkinesia]

*sighs*

Switzerland is a central European nation, located in the old Prussian sector, bordered by, among others, Germany and Austria. It has three official languages—those being Italian, French, and German. There is a myth that there is a Swiss language, but it does not exist.

Maybe you like to think all Americans are uneducated, but I'm sorry to break it to you—not all of us are uncultured jackasses (though I prefer the Russian expression “nekulturny,” not least since the work of Tom Clancy has embedded in me a greater appreciation for Russian culture). Some of us were raised by parents who wanted us to learn about the world and some of that group (myself included) actually wanted to. I don't see how the Nordic model fits a different archetype from democratic socialism though—universal healthcare, the significant presence of a welfare state, and wide guarantees of rights, including some not included in the UDHR.

I would say that the Nordic model allows for a greater presence of a free market from central and southern European democratic socialist systems, but a) that's not saying much, and b) it's still democratic socialism.

Also, I see you're a hardcore democratist. Well, I miss being 15 too.

I would read up on the Nordic Model if I were you and then come back. Some information about Switzerland because there is no Prussian sector. Switzerland is a country landlocked between Germany, Austria, Italy, Liechtenstein and France. They speak four languages and are divided into cantons with a system not too dissimilar from the American federal way.

Another note: most of the country is mountainous. Conclusion: space is limited. What good do migrant workers do ? Nothing. Not in labour (they lower wages), not in safety (crime rise), not in the population (the country is overpopulated as it is). Clearly you were unaware of that.

Read-up complete.

I have concluded you're even worse at supporting the Nordic model than I originally thought. Opposition to immigration does not indicate a great deal of support for “low barriers to free trade” and “economic openness” (listed as major facets of Nordic social democracy, as it's more formally referred to, by this source), and an outspoken distaste for the state is not a good indicator of supporting “statist individualism.”

I'm not sure why you're insulting my level of education here, at least I know what the fuck I'm talking about when I discuss neoliberalism with people. I'm not convinced you understand the Nordic model that you propagate so strongly here.

[Free Tristania]

I would read up on the Nordic Model if I were you and then come back. Some information about Switzerland because there is no Prussian sector. Switzerland is a country landlocked between Germany, Austria, Italy, Liechtenstein and France. They speak four languages and are divided into cantons with a system not too dissimilar from the American federal way.

Another note: most of the country is mountainous. Conclusion: space is limited. What good do migrant workers do ? Nothing. Not in labour (they lower wages), not in safety (crime rise), not in the population (the country is overpopulated as it is). Clearly you were unaware of that.

Read-up complete.

I have concluded you're even worse at supporting the Nordic model than I originally thought. Opposition to immigration does not indicate a great deal of support for “low barriers to free trade” and “economic openness” (listed as major facets of Nordic social democracy, as it's more formally referred to, by this source), and an outspoken distaste for the state is not a good indicator of supporting “statist individualism.”

I'm not sure why you're insulting my level of education here, at least I know what the fuck I'm talking about when I discuss neoliberalism with people. I'm not convinced you understand the Nordic model that you propagate so strongly here.

It's at least a European system while neoliberalism is American, damaging to our societies, damaging to our way of life as it has already shown here in Europe. It has left people with a big social divide and fake American culture that we didn't use to have and that we can do without.

[Arkinesia]

Read-up complete.

I have concluded you're even worse at supporting the Nordic model than I originally thought. Opposition to immigration does not indicate a great deal of support for “low barriers to free trade” and “economic openness” (listed as major facets of Nordic social democracy, as it's more formally referred to, by this source), and an outspoken distaste for the state is not a good indicator of supporting “statist individualism.”

I'm not sure why you're insulting my level of education here, at least I know what the fuck I'm talking about when I discuss neoliberalism with people. I'm not convinced you understand the Nordic model that you propagate so strongly here.

It's at least a European system while neoliberalism is American, damaging to our societies, damaging to our way of life as it has already shown here in Europe. It has left people with a big social divide and fake American culture that we didn't use to have and that we can do without.

Neoliberalism has almost no foothold in Europe outside of “conservative” parties. European nations are almost exclusively social-democratic, with the exception of, say, Poland, which is close to neoliberalism but lacks an adequate social safety net to be neoliberal.

[Free Tristania]

It's probably social darwinism and considered good there if overworked people will also have to care for their elderly after having paid their taxes to the state to deliver the services which they then don't and then the elderly are left rotting in their beds as the nursing homes have no care workers while the new management of the newly privatised nursing home earns 300.000 euro's per year. It's probably considered quite good under neoliberalism if people have to pay for services they already paid for in taxation. Neoliberalism is a criminal system and those advocating here in Europe should actually be sent off to the Disunited Banana Republics of America where they can find their haven.

[Pilotto]

No. It's not prejudiced. I actually wish it was. Prejudiced are based on something that is not real. American ignorance about other countries certainly is very real and quite infamous around the world.

Actually, starting in the mid 19th century, America has been the beneficiary of more foreign immigration than any other country in the world. The US is widely considered to be the most diverse nation on the planet. As a result, most Americans are exposed to a wide variety of foreign cultures. Your acertation that Americans are ignorant of other countries is simply not based in fact.

[Free Tristania]

It's at least a European system while neoliberalism is American, damaging to our societies, damaging to our way of life as it has already shown here in Europe. It has left people with a big social divide and fake American culture that we didn't use to have and that we can do without.

Neoliberalism has almost no foothold in Europe outside of “conservative” parties. European nations are almost exclusively social-democratic, with the exception of, say, Poland, which is close to neoliberalism but lacks an adequate social safety net to be neoliberal.

When was the last time you checked ? 1980 ? Ask the Germans about Hartz IV, ask the British. Ask the Dutch. Ask the Greeks and the Spanish who are rioting and starving in the streets.

[IFS England]

In any case I am English an it doesn't matter where your from, yourr entitled to your opinion..but it clearly shows that the Swiss have had enough of free immigration and the fact that Europe are bullying them to ignore their own peoples vote. Going behind the swiss's back an threatening to pull trade is cowardly an childish. Switzerland has issued a warning not just to Britain but the world. The people of Britain and Switzerland are fed up with the dictatorial EU that adopts the policy of their way or the highway. Britain and Switzerland are examples of strong willed nations against the EU, we urge the rest of the European nations to join us. The WU are responsible for the destruction of Greece and the Ukraine. Be warned.

[Free Tristania]

No. It's not prejudiced. I actually wish it was. Prejudiced are based on something that is not real. American ignorance about other countries certainly is very real and quite infamous around the world.

Actually, starting in the mid 19th century, America has been the beneficiary of more foreign immigration than any other country in the world. The US is widely considered to be the most diverse nation on the planet. As a result, most Americans are exposed to a wide variety of foreign cultures. Your acertation that Americans are ignorant of other countries is simply not based in fact.

Ask the average American how much he knows about other countries and how many languages he speaks. Enough proof.