Swiss vote to bring back immigration laws

[Free Tristania]

I believe you would like to add tourists to your list.

I'm pretty certain he was referring to individuals seeking permanent or semi-permanent stay. No need to sound witty.

Exactly.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Bollocks. Because in their own countries they keep on producing more and more children that we have to feed while our own sick elderly are left rotting in their nappies because there is no money for caring for them. Fact.

Just saying fact doesn't fucking change that what you just said was an opinion. I am human before I am European. Syrians, Iraqi's, Turk's and Iranians matter just as much to me as any British person that I haven't met. They don't matter to me as much as people that I know and my close family sure because I would do more than pay tax to help them but everyone else? All just human to me.

I am sure the citizens of the countries you listed feel the same thing for you. Not.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I'm pretty certain he was referring to individuals seeking permanent or semi-permanent stay. No need to sound witty.

What's semi-permanent?

OK. I give up. The garden variety tourist will afford (and desire) multiple years of stay. You win.

EDIT: Happy now?

[Free Tristania]

Just saying fact doesn't fucking change that what you just said was an opinion. I am human before I am European. Syrians, Iraqi's, Turk's and Iranians matter just as much to me as any British person that I haven't met. They don't matter to me as much as people that I know and my close family sure because I would do more than pay tax to help them but everyone else? All just human to me.

I am sure the citizens of the countries you listed feel the same thing for you. Not.

They wouldn't. I happened to have been able to ask citizens of countries from which a great number of immigrants have moved here whether they would tolerate such a large group of migrants in their own country. The answer was a resounding no. You see: other than most self-proclaimed "the world is one" internationalists people who disagree actually tend to have friends abroad - and sometimes more.

[Olivaero]

Just saying fact doesn't fucking change that what you just said was an opinion. I am human before I am European. Syrians, Iraqi's, Turk's and Iranians matter just as much to me as any British person that I haven't met. They don't matter to me as much as people that I know and my close family sure because I would do more than pay tax to help them but everyone else? All just human to me.

I am sure the citizens of the countries you listed feel the same thing for you. Not.

They don't have a chance to feel the same way about me, they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit. If you save someones life then find out later that they wouldn't of saved yours in the same situation do you think to yourself "I shouldn't of saved them"?

[Olivaero]

I am sure the citizens of the countries you listed feel the same thing for you. Not.

They wouldn't. I happened to have been able to ask citizens of countries from which a great number of immigrants have moved here whether they would tolerate such a large group of migrants in their own country. The answer was a resounding no. You see: other than most self-proclaimed "the world is one" internationalists people who disagree actually tend to have friends abroad - and sometimes more.

Oh great some anecdotes, they totally help the debate.

[Free Tristania]

I am sure the citizens of the countries you listed feel the same thing for you. Not.

They don't have a chance to feel the same way about me, they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit. If you save someones lfe then find out later that they wouldn't of saved yours in the same situation do you think to yourself "I shouldn't of saved them"?

Bollocks. Fortunately I tend to be in the position that I get to talk to a lot of people abroad (foreign inlaws) and those countries have a middle class too and they even have access to the internet and in a lot of countries there is a right to vote.

[Olivaero]

They don't have a chance to feel the same way about me, they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit. If you save someones lfe then find out later that they wouldn't of saved yours in the same situation do you think to yourself "I shouldn't of saved them"?

Bollocks. Fortunately I tend to be in the position that I get to talk to a lot of people abroad (foreign inlaws) and those countries have a middle class too and they even have access to the internet and in a lot of countries there is a right to vote.

They may have a middle class, it's relatively small. They may have voting rights and still suffer tyranny by majority. I mean look at turkey for example, arguably the best democracy on my list, The current government is still trying to drag it back down. If they don't want to live there they should have the right to move somewhere else, full stop.

[Free Tristania]

Bollocks. Fortunately I tend to be in the position that I get to talk to a lot of people abroad (foreign inlaws) and those countries have a middle class too and they even have access to the internet and in a lot of countries there is a right to vote.

They may have a middle class, it's relatively small. They may have voting rights and still suffer tyranny by majority. I mean look at turkey for example, arguably the best democracy on my list, The current government is still trying to drag it back down. If they don't want to live their they should have the right to move somewhere else, full stop.

The situation in f.i the Philippines (where she comes from) is not nearly as bad as you want to make people believe. Yes: they are not nearly as rich as we are, yes there is corruption, yes their democracy is far from perfect but no: there are no political refugees and the country has been a democracy since 1986. A flawed democracy but a democracy nonetheless. And there is a middle class and not everyone is poor. My better half is not upper class but she has not seen a single day of poverty in her life. Not one.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Well then you're closing your doors on some people. Your basically saying to poorer countries "Your well skilled desirables? yeah we'll take them! You can keep everyone else." And you wonder why the third world stays poor.

We do not have any obligation to nanny any country by taking in their scourge of society.

Foreign aid and philanthropy are enough.

As for non-skilled individuals, you simply cannot afford to pay for their education with no real guarantee for a return. Do they show potential and accept working in your country upon finishing their studies? Yeah, sure, I guess why not.

[Free Tristania]

And besides: these countries wanted their independence which leaves us with no obligations to nanny them and absolves us of any responsibility for them. We don't have to - and we shouldn't. It's called independence for a reason: stand on your own legs and sort out your own affairs.

[God Kefka]

And besides: these countries wanted their independence which leaves us with no obligations to nanny them and absolves us of any responsibility for them. We don't have to - and we shouldn't. It's called independence for a reason: stand on your own legs and sort out your own affairs.

yup... if they betray Europe and refuse to recognize its authority... Europe's no longer responsible for what happens to them.

And if you want to enter Europe's house, you need Europe's permission. Europe's well within its rights to say No and it should say No... if someone backstabbed me I wouldn't be very likely to let them sleepover.

[Free Tristania]

And besides: these countries wanted their independence which leaves us with no obligations to nanny them and absolves us of any responsibility for them. We don't have to - and we shouldn't. It's called independence for a reason: stand on your own legs and sort out your own affairs.

yup... if they betray Europe and refuse to recognize its authority... Europe's no longer responsible for what happens to them.

And if you want to enter Europe's house, you need Europe's permission. Europe's well within its rights to say No and it should say No... if someone backstabbed me I wouldn't be very likely to let them sleepover.

I wouldn't call it betrayal but they wanted their independence and run their own affairs. Now that they run their own affairs how they do it is their beeswax. No one but we ourselves is responsible for how we run our own country - and the same applies to them. We are not to teach the Third World wise lessons on how to get their affairs in order, they will have to learn the hard way - like we did. And we shouldn't send them free money. They are not colonies but independent countries. And how do you improve each other's economies while making sure that each other's independence is recognised ? Trade.

[Olivaero]

The situation in f.i the Philippines (where she comes from) is not nearly as bad as you want to make people believe. Yes: they are not nearly as rich as we are, yes there is corruption, yes their democracy is far from perfect but no: there are no political refugees and the country has been a democracy since 1986. A flawed democracy but a democracy nonetheless. And there is a middle class and not everyone is poor. My better half is not upper class but she has not seen a single day of poverty in her life. Not one.

Thats great. and what about the poor of the Philippines? I don't really care about the middle class, they aren't as at risk, and you have already clarified you'd support bringing them over. The poor are who need the most help and they probably aren't getting it in the Philippines. Also the Phillipines has horrible abortion laws, an example of tyranny by majority that I mentioned ealier. So even middle and Upper class women are having their bodily sovereignty breached.

We do not have any obligation to nanny any country by taking in their scourge of society.

Foreign aid and philanthropy are enough.

As for non-skilled individuals, you simply cannot afford to pay for their education with no real guarantee for a return. Do they show potential and accept working in your country upon finishing their studies? Yeah, sure, I guess why not.

We are not nannying them we are saying "your problems are our problems because we are all human" and besides whatever happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" If I'm not mistaken that policy made America one of the greatest countries on earth.

And besides: these countries wanted their independence which leaves us with no obligations to nanny them and absolves us of any responsibility for them. We don't have to - and we shouldn't. It's called independence for a reason: stand on your own legs and sort out your own affairs.

Ah of course, they should of just stayed subservient to their colonial masters if they wanted our help.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I am sure the citizens of the countries you listed feel the same thing for you. Not.

They don't have a chance to feel the same way about me, they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit. If you save someones life then find out later that they wouldn't of saved yours in the same situation do you think to yourself "I shouldn't of saved them"?

Yeah, if someone saved your life only for you to get back at him "I wouldn't have done it", you're officially an asshole.

they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit.

Like we're not. Granted, there are some people that are barely scraping by and by all means, either through philanthropy or foreign aid, efforts should be made to battle this - but really, psychologically poverty or wealth are a function of relative not absolute income. So if this were to hold true in a strict sense, society improving overall will not make you happier, only your individual progress would.

[Free Tristania]

The situation in f.i the Philippines (where she comes from) is not nearly as bad as you want to make people believe. Yes: they are not nearly as rich as we are, yes there is corruption, yes their democracy is far from perfect but no: there are no political refugees and the country has been a democracy since 1986. A flawed democracy but a democracy nonetheless. And there is a middle class and not everyone is poor. My better half is not upper class but she has not seen a single day of poverty in her life. Not one.

Thats great. and what about the poor of the Philippines? I don't really care about the middle class, they aren't as at risk, and you have already clarified you'd support bringing them over. The poor are who need the most help and they probably aren't getting it in the Philippines. Also the Phillipines has horrible abortion laws, an example of tyranny by majority that I mentioned ealier. So even middle and Upper class women are having their bodily sovereignty breached.

Their laws and their problem. Not our concern. How they care for their poor is their problem. Not our bl.. business and I don't see why we should even lecture them. They are not a colony but an independent country.

Ah of course, they should of just stayed subservient to their colonial masters if they wanted our help.

I'll give you a straight answer: yes. If you apply for foreign assistance then be prepared to be under foreign stewardship as the other power would want to see its money well spent. Consequently: don't do it. Get your own affairs in order.

[Olivaero]

They don't have a chance to feel the same way about me, they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit. If you save someones life then find out later that they wouldn't of saved yours in the same situation do you think to yourself "I shouldn't of saved them"?

Yeah, if someone saved your life only for you to get back at him "I wouldn't have done it", you're officially an asshole.

So you'd only save the lives of people you think would do the same for you? Even if it takes relatively little effort on your part to save their life?

they are a bit busy trying to keep their head above the shit.

Like we're not. Granted, there are some people that are barely scraping by and by all means, either through philanthropy or foreign aid, efforts should be made to battle this - but really, psychologically poverty or wealth are a function of relative not absolute income. So if this were to hold true in a strict sense, society improving overall will not make you happier, only your individual progress would.

No we are no where near as close to the shit as a lot of people living in much poorer countries are. And I'm not talkign about being happier I'm talking about not worrying if your school is going to get suicide bombed or hit by a rocket or if your friends gonna be lynched for being gay.

[Free Tristania]

I actually think that those whinging about the Third World and who think that we should pay for them yet don't interfere with their lifes lest we would be eeevil imperialists should actually have to pay an additional 10 percent in income taxes which will go into development aid so the rest of society doesn't get billed for their hobby.

[Olivaero]

Thats great. and what about the poor of the Philippines? I don't really care about the middle class, they aren't as at risk, and you have already clarified you'd support bringing them over. The poor are who need the most help and they probably aren't getting it in the Philippines. Also the Phillipines has horrible abortion laws, an example of tyranny by majority that I mentioned ealier. So even middle and Upper class women are having their bodily sovereignty breached.

Their laws and their problem. Not our concern. How they care for their poor is their problem. Not our bl.. business and I don't see why we should even lecture them. They are not a colony but an independent country.

Ah of course, they should of just stayed subservient to their colonial masters if they wanted our help.

I'll give you a straight answer: yes. If you apply for foreign assistance then be prepared to be under foreign stewardship as the other power would want to see its money well spent. Consequently: don't do it. Get your own affairs in order.

And here we are. Out in the open neo-colonialism because you really don't give a fuck about their problems and if they want you to give a fuck about their problems they had better give your country all their land.

[Free Tristania]

Their laws and their problem. Not our concern. How they care for their poor is their problem. Not our bl.. business and I don't see why we should even lecture them. They are not a colony but an independent country.

I'll give you a straight answer: yes. If you apply for foreign assistance then be prepared to be under foreign stewardship as the other power would want to see its money well spent. Consequently: don't do it. Get your own affairs in order.

And here we are. Out in the open neo-colonialism because you really don't give a fuck about their problems and if they want you to give a fuck about their problems they had better give your country all their land.

Nope Not at all. Here if you end up in debt and apply because of reckless spending, drug abuse or alcoholism the municipality or another institution takes over from you and puts you in a project which helps you to get rid of your debt. For the meantime, however, you are, basically, legally incompetent. Those that behave like children - should be treated as such.

Don't want that to happen ? Don't ask other people to help you with the mess that you have created and make sure you don't end up in a mess.

[Olivaero]

I actually think that those whinging about the Third World and who think that we should pay for them yet don't interfere with their lifes lest we would be eeevil imperialists should actually have to pay an additional 10 percent in income taxes which will go into development aid so the rest of society doesn't get billed for their hobby.

I actually think that thoes who do not see the suffering of their fellow humans and think holy shit we should do whatever we can to help these people are morally bankrupt.

[Free Tristania]

I actually think that those whinging about the Third World and who think that we should pay for them yet don't interfere with their lifes lest we would be eeevil imperialists should actually have to pay an additional 10 percent in income taxes which will go into development aid so the rest of society doesn't get billed for their hobby.

I actually think that thoes who do not see the suffering of their fellow humans and think holy shit we should do whatever we can to help these people are morally bankrupt.

Bollocks. So you should have to pay the additional 10 percent. I will pay my money to the Filipino national treasury by visiting the country whenever I can, going on a buying spree (without asking for too much change) and buying Filipino products when I am here: that way the people will continue to have jobs and will not become reliant on other peoples handouts. They are a proud people that don't like to sit on their arse and complain. Which is what lefties would gladly relegate them to. That, my friend, is neocolonialism: your paternalistic attitudes towards the "poor" people of the Third World that need "free money". They don't - and they don't want it either.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

The situation in f.i the Philippines (where she comes from) is not nearly as bad as you want to make people believe. Yes: they are not nearly as rich as we are, yes there is corruption, yes their democracy is far from perfect but no: there are no political refugees and the country has been a democracy since 1986. A flawed democracy but a democracy nonetheless. And there is a middle class and not everyone is poor. My better half is not upper class but she has not seen a single day of poverty in her life. Not one.

Thats great. and what about the poor of the Philippines? I don't really care about the middle class, they aren't as at risk, and you have already clarified you'd support bringing them over. The poor are who need the most help and they probably aren't getting it in the Philippines. Also the Phillipines has horrible abortion laws, an example of tyranny by majority that I mentioned ealier. So even middle and Upper class women are having their bodily sovereignty breached.

We do not have any obligation to nanny any country by taking in their scourge of society.

Foreign aid and philanthropy are enough.

As for non-skilled individuals, you simply cannot afford to pay for their education with no real guarantee for a return. Do they show potential and accept working in your country upon finishing their studies? Yeah, sure, I guess why not.

We are not nannying them we are saying "your problems are our problems because we are all human" and besides whatever happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" If I'm not mistaken that policy made America one of the greatest countries on earth.

And besides: these countries wanted their independence which leaves us with no obligations to nanny them and absolves us of any responsibility for them. We don't have to - and we shouldn't. It's called independence for a reason: stand on your own legs and sort out your own affairs.

Ah of course, they should of just stayed subservient to their colonial masters if they wanted our help.

As a general rule of thumb , good things tend to stay good until you fuck with them.

Once you take a good look around the political landscape of the world and its' relation to the social, economical, etc. aspects you will quickly realize how many people choose not to do anything about their situation (and this is a choice more than it has ever been, in this day and age) - they're almost masochistic it seems, even. By all means, many of them deserve their fates. This isn't even something specific to 3rd world countries, it happens widely even in the most developed of nations.

So you need to ensure that whoever you bring in your country benefits it, not disadvantages it.

Perhaps this doesn't make a lot of sense now, maybe it will some day.

[Olivaero]

And here we are. Out in the open neo-colonialism because you really don't give a fuck about their problems and if they want you to give a fuck about their problems they had better give your country all their land.

Nope Not at all. Here if you end up in debt and apply because of reckless spending, drug abuse or alcoholism the municipality or another institution takes over from you and puts you in a project which helps you to get rid of your debt. For the meantime, however, you are, basically, legally incompetent. Those that behave like children - should be treated as such.

Don't want that to happen ? Don't ask other people to help you with the mess that you have created and make sure you don't end up in a mess.

The average African has not created the mess that they are in horrible dictators and resource hungry colonial powers did that. They were just born in a place that is so far near the bottom it's nearly impossible to get out because the system demands that it is that way.

[Free Tristania]

Nope Not at all. Here if you end up in debt and apply because of reckless spending, drug abuse or alcoholism the municipality or another institution takes over from you and puts you in a project which helps you to get rid of your debt. For the meantime, however, you are, basically, legally incompetent. Those that behave like children - should be treated as such.

Don't want that to happen ? Don't ask other people to help you with the mess that you have created and make sure you don't end up in a mess.

The average African has not created the mess that they are in horrible dictators and resource hungry colonial powers did that. They were just born in a place that is so far near the bottom it's nearly impossible to get out because the system demands that it is that way.

Bollocks. They did that to themselves. As soon as they got their independence they started civil wars. That means that you don't know the Third World and that you don't know history either.