Swiss vote to bring back immigration laws

[Free Tristania]

Well that's kinda shitty. I hold free movement of people above democracy so.

It's a shame to see how little left-wingers in general value democracy and then they blame certain groups of conservatives for being totalitarian monsters while, in fact, I sometimes find it very difficult to see the difference between the two groups.

[Olivaero]

And your point is?

You know, you can go stuff your arrogant, americanocentric attitude up a tree. We live just fine. We have our problems. We have corruption, yes. Poverty, even. We have tons of it. But what I will not sit here watching is you treating us like human trash just because we have problems. You don't live here. You don't understand what it means to have these problems. And the thing is, you never will.

And myself, I've got better things to do than listen to your absurd crap about Eastern Europe living in third world conditions. Like, for example, sleep. Seeya on some other day.

Except I wasn't. It's just that failing to acknowledge problems where they really actually exist breeds complacency which in turn makes people not do anything about said problems.

You, as in plural, don't live just fine, speak for yourself. You're most probably enjoying a number of privileges most others don't, look around.

America is far, far from being perfect and there's a lot of work to be done here too. But it's not so hard to step on your ego and admit it, you see.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but you likened the living conditions in Eastern Europe to Middle Eastern dictatorships. That's way beyond "yeah my country has problems"

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I haven't really been to Eastern Europe (I prefer to call the more Western countries of the former Eastern Block Central Europe but that's me) just yet: only to the Czech Republic (and that was back in 2008. And I wouldn't call that country undeveloped. Before the "happy days" of Nazi rule and communism (same shit anyway) they were actually the second or third richest country in Europe (during the 1920s and 1930s) and today they are no poor souls either. The Czechs are an industralised and industrious nation.

Baltic States and most other Central / Eastern European states, including the Czech Republic, are pretty well off - except for the numerically few but geographically and demographically significant Romania, Bulagaria, Ukraine, to name a few. Poland for example has gone a long way.

Nazi rule and communism (same shit anyway)

you hit the nail on the head there

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Except I wasn't. It's just that failing to acknowledge problems where they really actually exist breeds complacency which in turn makes people not do anything about said problems.

You, as in plural, don't live just fine, speak for yourself. You're most probably enjoying a number of privileges most others don't, look around.

America is far, far from being perfect and there's a lot of work to be done here too. But it's not so hard to step on your ego and admit it, you see.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but you likened the living conditions in Eastern Europe to Middle Eastern dictatorships. That's way beyond "yeah my country has problems"

Wat.

(Image)

This does not prove anything other then Eastern Europe likes Blue/Purple as the Middle East,Northern/South Western Africa and Latin America.

[Olivaero]

Well that's kinda shitty. I hold free movement of people above democracy so.

It's a shame to see how little left-wingers in general value democracy and then they blame certain groups of conservatives for being totalitarian monsters while, in fact, I sometimes find it very difficult to see the difference between the two groups.

I changed it after some thought but I'll still stand by it. Also I don't think I've ever said conservatives are Totalitarian monsters.

[Free Tristania]

It's a shame to see how little left-wingers in general value democracy and then they blame certain groups of conservatives for being totalitarian monsters while, in fact, I sometimes find it very difficult to see the difference between the two groups.

I changed it after some thought but I'll still stand by it. Also I don't think I've ever said conservatives are Totalitarian monsters.

But most of your left-wing friends do. Makes my wonder why you would force free immigration down peoples throats even if they vote against it ?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Well that's kinda shitty. I hold free movement of people above direct democracy so, suffice to say I disagree with both the decision and the method it was implemented. If it was implemented by say a 2/3rds majority of the population I would still disagree with it but it would show more consideration of the matter. a simple majority hardly shows national unity on a decision which affects both international affairs and the right of people to move freely.

I find it funny how leftists will change their position on republic vs democracy on a whim

EDIT: But let's not generalize. . .

[Satanic Socialist States]

Well that's kinda shitty. I hold free movement of people above direct democracy so, suffice to say I disagree with both the decision and the method it was implemented. If it was implemented by say a 2/3rds majority of the population I would still disagree with it but it would show more consideration of the matter. a simple majority hardly shows national unity on a decision which affects both international affairs and the right of people to move freely.

I find it funny how leftists will change their position on republic vs democracy on a whim

EDIT: But let's not generalize. . .

Do do realize that those positions are not mutually exclusive?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I find it funny how leftists will change their position on republic vs democracy on a whim

EDIT: But let's not generalize. . .

Do do realize that those positions are not mutually exclusive?

Where do I imply that?

[Sol Nascente]

Good decision by Swiss people since lots of Immigrants there are commiting crimes and stuff and I know what i'm talking about since I have family there.

[Olivaero]

I changed it after some thought but I'll still stand by it. Also I don't think I've ever said conservatives are Totalitarian monsters.

But most of your left-wing friends do. Makes my wonder why you would force free immigration down peoples throats even if they vote against it ?

I'm pretty sure some of the people you consider left wingers would decry some policies I support as conservatism. However I'll bite, Because even if you live in a dictatorship if you have the abillity to move to a better place you can improve your life if the better places all close their doors we're are essentially condemning these people to live in horrible dictatorships.

[Satanic Socialist States]

Do do realize that those positions are not mutually exclusive?

Where do I imply that?

By saying "Republic vs. Democracy", when both terms are largely interchangeable. For example, in Greek the word for democracy & republic are the same (Δημοκρατία).

[Olivaero]

Well that's kinda shitty. I hold free movement of people above direct democracy so, suffice to say I disagree with both the decision and the method it was implemented. If it was implemented by say a 2/3rds majority of the population I would still disagree with it but it would show more consideration of the matter. a simple majority hardly shows national unity on a decision which affects both international affairs and the right of people to move freely.

I find it funny how leftists will change their position on republic vs democracy on a whim

EDIT: But let's not generalize. . .

I find it funny how when I speak out for one "leftist" policy I'm attacked for people you consider my ideological colleagues flip flopping.

[Free Tristania]

But most of your left-wing friends do. Makes my wonder why you would force free immigration down peoples throats even if they vote against it ?

I'm pretty sure some of the people you consider left wingers would decry some policies I support as conservatism. However I'll bite, Because even if you live in a dictatorship if you have the abillity to move to a better place you can improve your life if the better places all close their doors we're are essentially condemning these people to live in horrible dictatorships.

The vast bulk of those going to Europe are economic refugees. Fact.

[Olivaero]

I'm pretty sure some of the people you consider left wingers would decry some policies I support as conservatism. However I'll bite, Because even if you live in a dictatorship if you have the abillity to move to a better place you can improve your life if the better places all close their doors we're are essentially condemning these people to live in horrible dictatorships.

The vast bulk of those going to Europe are economic refugees. Fact.

So your telling me they want to move here to make their lives better? excellent! the more humans with better lives the better!

[Free Tristania]

The vast bulk of those going to Europe are economic refugees. Fact.

So your telling me they want to move here to make their lives better? excellent! the more humans with better lives the better!

Bollocks. Because in their own countries they keep on producing more and more children that we have to feed while our own sick elderly are left rotting in their nappies because there is no money for caring for them. Fact.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

But most of your left-wing friends do. Makes my wonder why you would force free immigration down peoples throats even if they vote against it ?

I'm pretty sure some of the people you consider left wingers would decry some policies I support as conservatism. However I'll bite, Because even if you live in a dictatorship if you have the abillity to move to a better place you can improve your life if the better places all close their doors we're are essentially condemning these people to live in horrible dictatorships.

It's not as much as "closing their doors" as it is putting a guard to regulate entry - I don't know the ins and outs of the specific regulations but I personally would control immigration based on need - if domestic supply cannot fulfill the demand then estimate the difference and grant access to the appropriate number of relevantly trained/educated individuals . No access if you have a criminal record. And you'd be closely monitored until completely assimilated, whenever that may be the case. Committing a crime will get you deported.

[Free Tristania]

I'm pretty sure some of the people you consider left wingers would decry some policies I support as conservatism. However I'll bite, Because even if you live in a dictatorship if you have the abillity to move to a better place you can improve your life if the better places all close their doors we're are essentially condemning these people to live in horrible dictatorships.

It's not as much as "closing their doors" as it is putting a guard to regulate entry - I don't know the ins and outs of the specific regulations but I personally would control immigration based on need - if domestic supply cannot fulfill the demand then estimate the difference and grant access to the appropriate number of relevantly trained/educated individuals . No access if you have a criminal record. And you'd be closely monitored until completely assimilated, whenever that may be the case. Committing a crime will get you deported.

I think we should let in only certain groups.

1. Preferred group: those who are getting married to a native born citizen or who are adopted by native born citizens.
2. Those on a work permit + invitation from a company.
3. Those on a study permit + invitation from an institution.
4. Actual refugees without a criminal record or who have not been found carrying an infectious or mental illness.

The rest: not welcome.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Where do I imply that?

By saying "Republic vs. Democracy", when both terms are largely interchangeable. For example, in Greek the word for democracy & republic are the same (Δημοκρατία).

You're completely missing the point. I was criticizing his choosing law over democracy when the exact opposite is a recurring theme e.g. with left-wingers in America trying to repel the Constitution and other stupid shit.

[Agritum]

It's not as much as "closing their doors" as it is putting a guard to regulate entry - I don't know the ins and outs of the specific regulations but I personally would control immigration based on need - if domestic supply cannot fulfill the demand then estimate the difference and grant access to the appropriate number of relevantly trained/educated individuals . No access if you have a criminal record. And you'd be closely monitored until completely assimilated, whenever that may be the case. Committing a crime will get you deported.

I think we should let in only certain groups.

1. Preferred group: those who are getting married to a native born citizen or who are adopted by native born citizens.
2. Those on a work permit + invitation from a company.
3. Those on a study permit + invitation from an institution.
4. Actual refugees without a criminal record or who have not been found carrying an infectious or mental illness.

The rest: not welcome.

I believe you would like to add tourists to your list.

[Olivaero]

So your telling me they want to move here to make their lives better? excellent! the more humans with better lives the better!

Bollocks. Because in their own countries they keep on producing more and more children that we have to feed while our own sick elderly are left rotting in their nappies because there is no money for caring for them. Fact.

Just saying fact doesn't fucking change that what you just said was an opinion. I am human before I am European. Syrians, Iraqi's, Turk's and Iranians matter just as much to me as any British person that I haven't met. They don't matter to me as much as people that I know and my close family sure because I would do more than pay tax to help them but everyone else? All just human to me.

[Olivaero]

I'm pretty sure some of the people you consider left wingers would decry some policies I support as conservatism. However I'll bite, Because even if you live in a dictatorship if you have the abillity to move to a better place you can improve your life if the better places all close their doors we're are essentially condemning these people to live in horrible dictatorships.

It's not as much as "closing their doors" as it is putting a guard to regulate entry - I don't know the ins and outs of the specific regulations but I personally would control immigration based on need - if domestic supply cannot fulfill the demand then estimate the difference and grant access to the appropriate number of relevantly trained/educated individuals . No access if you have a criminal record. And you'd be closely monitored until completely assimilated, whenever that may be the case. Committing a crime will get you deported.

Well then you're closing your doors on some people. Your basically saying to poorer countries "Your well skilled desirables? yeah we'll take them! You can keep everyone else." And you wonder why the third world stays poor.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

It's not as much as "closing their doors" as it is putting a guard to regulate entry - I don't know the ins and outs of the specific regulations but I personally would control immigration based on need - if domestic supply cannot fulfill the demand then estimate the difference and grant access to the appropriate number of relevantly trained/educated individuals . No access if you have a criminal record. And you'd be closely monitored until completely assimilated, whenever that may be the case. Committing a crime will get you deported.

I think we should let in only certain groups.

1. Preferred group: those who are getting married to a native born citizen or who are adopted by native born citizens.
2. Those on a work permit + invitation from a company.
3. Those on a study permit + invitation from an institution.
4. Actual refugees without a criminal record or who have not been found carrying an infectious or mental illness.

The rest: not welcome.

Sounds about right. Also, being allowed access does *not* mean you will be necessarily assimilated (if you don't you'll have to leave) unless it is deemed to be in the best economic interests of the country.

An example - the Sochi Winter Games with *I forgot how many* foreign workers (who lived in deplorable conditions btw) - short term project will most probably mean short term stay.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I think we should let in only certain groups.

1. Preferred group: those who are getting married to a native born citizen or who are adopted by native born citizens.
2. Those on a work permit + invitation from a company.
3. Those on a study permit + invitation from an institution.
4. Actual refugees without a criminal record or who have not been found carrying an infectious or mental illness.

The rest: not welcome.

I believe you would like to add tourists to your list.

I'm pretty certain he was referring to individuals seeking permanent or semi-permanent stay. No need to sound witty.

[Agritum]

I believe you would like to add tourists to your list.

I'm pretty certain he was referring to individuals seeking permanent or semi-permanent stay. No need to sound witty.

What's semi-permanent?