So I'm (finally) going to North Korea...! ^__^

[Napkiraly]

I hope you realise by the end of your journey, how horrible the North Korean regime is. I mean, you'll be able to tell the difference in prosperity and advancement just by comparing Beijing to Pyongyang. Either way stay safe.

[Wind in the Willows]

Be extremely careful.

[United Marxist Nations]

Someone who used to be in my region (I say used to because shortly after, there was a split between pro-DPRK and skeptical members, of which I was in the latter) went there on an independent tour, and was exposed to more of (not the whole of, I'm sure), so that might be a better option.

Just for the record, this is the Anti-Revisionist Marxist-Leninist saying that N Korea is not socialist.

[Grenartia]

Someone who used to be in my region (I say used to because shortly after, there was a split between pro-DPRK and skeptical members, of which I was in the latter) went there on an independent tour, and was exposed to more of (not the whole of, I'm sure), so that might be a better option.

Just for the record, this is the Anti-Revisionist Marxist-Leninist saying that N Korea is not socialist.

Indeed. The Kims have each out-Stalined Stalin. Then again, so did Pol Pot, but they seem to have been more stable.

Totalitarianism's bad kids.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Have fun! The train ride in should be quite the experience. For a country obsessed with urbanisation and industrialisation and modernity, it's a sight to see the clusters of small hamlets and bleak, rolling farmland as you trundle southward. It's a weird to juxtapose what North Korea wants to be (as seen in the monuments of P'yongyang and the gleaming factories you'll no doubt be dragged through) against what it is for the vast majority.

[The Fascist German Union]

North Korea isn't that bad, they have snow.

[Vulpae]

it is technically communist as it is a mono-party system and all things are owned by The State including the people.

Communism has no state, as opposed to the totalitarian state of North Korea. Communism has no classes, as opposed to the strict classist structure with which the elite oppress the working class. Communism has no currency, as opposed to the use of the North Korean Won. Communism has no property, as opposed to the state ownership of business and the private ownership of the elite. Communism has no inheritance, as opposed to the private inheritance of power shown through the succession of the Kims.

North Korea is not Communist, please don't simply use the term as an insult to totalitarian states. It's a distinct political ideology and theoretical social order, not a type of authoritarian dictatorship.

Right, what I mean is it falls into the "We are Communists!" political camp, and like every state that's tried it, fell into a mono-party system, where the propaganda of "industry owned by the workers" actually means "everyone is owned by bureaucrats" instead of what it was supposed to mean.

I like the communist ideas, but Marx over idealized the communal village of Germany's not so distant past at the time. To live in a truly communist system would require the brutal squashing of individual goals, and ambitions. It would requires man to be made into machine.
Unless it's savagely puritanical the system eventually breaks down as people have ideas, and try to better themselves within the community, or in other cases at the expense of the community.

Have you ever read the short story "the lottery" it's a surprisingly terrifying tale of what a communal system can be like at it's worst.

[Grenartia]

Communism has no state, as opposed to the totalitarian state of North Korea. Communism has no classes, as opposed to the strict classist structure with which the elite oppress the working class. Communism has no currency, as opposed to the use of the North Korean Won. Communism has no property, as opposed to the state ownership of business and the private ownership of the elite. Communism has no inheritance, as opposed to the private inheritance of power shown through the succession of the Kims.

North Korea is not Communist, please don't simply use the term as an insult to totalitarian states. It's a distinct political ideology and theoretical social order, not a type of authoritarian dictatorship.

Right, what I mean is it falls into the "We are Communists!" political camp, and like every state that's tried it, fell into a mono-party system, where the propaganda of "industry owned by the workers" actually means "everyone is owned by bureaucrats" instead of what it was supposed to mean.

I like the communist ideas, but Marx over idealized the communal village of Germany's not so distant past at the time. To live in a truly communist system would require the brutal squashing of individual goals, and ambitions. It would requires man to be made into machine.
Unless it's savagely puritanical the system eventually breaks down as people have ideas, and try to better themselves within the community, or in other cases at the expense of the community.

Have you ever read the short story "the lottery" it's a surprisingly terrifying tale of what a communal system can be like at it's worst.

I've always preferred socialism to communism. I mean, I like the classlessness aspect of it, but I don't feel like statelessness and moneylessness are desireable traits for a society.

[Tritanope]

Have you ever read the short story "the lottery" it's a surprisingly terrifying tale of what a communal system can be like at it's worst.

If that's the short story I'm thinking of, I don't remember any mention of a communal system in it, not to mention it was sexist.

[Glasgia]

Communism has no state, as opposed to the totalitarian state of North Korea. Communism has no classes, as opposed to the strict classist structure with which the elite oppress the working class. Communism has no currency, as opposed to the use of the North Korean Won. Communism has no property, as opposed to the state ownership of business and the private ownership of the elite. Communism has no inheritance, as opposed to the private inheritance of power shown through the succession of the Kims.

North Korea is not Communist, please don't simply use the term as an insult to totalitarian states. It's a distinct political ideology and theoretical social order, not a type of authoritarian dictatorship.

Right, what I mean is it falls into the "We are Communists!" political camp, and like every state that's tried it, fell into a mono-party system, where the propaganda of "industry owned by the workers" actually means "everyone is owned by bureaucrats" instead of what it was supposed to mean.

Paris Commune and the Catalan Commune both survived for some time in a practically Communist system. However, you're right that the vast majority of Marxist-Leninist revolutions have lost sight of their goals and dissolved into reactionary "Socialists" with the ruling elite entrenching themselves rather than leading as a vanguard.

I like the communist ideas, but Marx over idealized the communal village of Germany's not so distant past at the time. To live in a truly communist system would require the brutal squashing of individual goals, and ambitions. It would requires man to be made into machine.
Unless it's savagely puritanical the system eventually breaks down as people have ideas, and try to better themselves within the community, or in other cases at the expense of the community.

It existed for most of human history, I see no reason why it should immediately collapse. Marx was a reformist who didn't believe in violent revolutions to depose individuals of their power. He instead believed in a slow assimilation into the Proletariat to give every person an equal opportunity in life - From their, it was up to their own ability.

Have you ever read the short story "the lottery" it's a surprisingly terrifying tale of what a communal system can be like at it's worst.

While I'm sceptical of its logical basis, just from the title, I'm interested. Link?

[Kiruri]

North Korea isn't that bad, they have snow.

Ah yes, snow. It feeds the masses, soothes the body, and calms the soul. Such a winter wonderland

[Arglorand]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

[Grenartia]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

My question is, how many people must somebody oppress and kill to be convicted of crimes against humanity?

[Herrebrugh]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

[Kiruri]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

My question is, how many people must somebody oppress and kill to be convicted of crimes against humanity?

Many? I'm sure someone's come up with a starting point for simplicity's sake

[Arglorand]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

If you're careful, sure, that possibility is rather low.

There's a distinct chance Dok isn't careful by any meaning of the term.

[Glasgia]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

Actually, with all the state surveillance you're under as a possible spy, it's probably one of the safest places in the world.

[Divair]

I'm, personally, going to wish you survive.

Because I may not like you, but neither do I want you to go the absolutely wrong way and perish in motherfucking North Korea.

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

He's going to try moving there.

[Kiruri]

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

Actually, with all the state surveillance you're under as a possible spy, it's probably one of the safest places in the world.

What a price for relative safety

[Herrebrugh]

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

If you're careful, sure, that possibility is rather low.

There's a distinct chance Dok isn't careful by any meaning of the term.

I really doubt the North Koreans are going to do anything to you unless you commit a serious offence. Mainly because tourism = money, and North Korea doesn't have a whole lot of that. They don't want to scare the small amount of people going to their country away.

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

He's going to try moving there.

Not now, as far as I have read. He is merely going on a trip.

[Kiruri]

If you're careful, sure, that possibility is rather low.

There's a distinct chance Dok isn't careful by any meaning of the term.

I really doubt the North Koreans are going to do anything to you unless you commit a serious offence. Mainly because tourism = money, and North Korea doesn't have a whole lot of that. They don't want to scare the small amount of people going to their country away.

Define "serious offence", now, ask for the NK's definition of "serious offence"

[United Marxist Nations]

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

He's going to try moving there.

No, I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

[Herrebrugh]

I really doubt the North Koreans are going to do anything to you unless you commit a serious offence. Mainly because tourism = money, and North Korea doesn't have a whole lot of that. They don't want to scare the small amount of people going to their country away.

Define "serious offence", now, ask for the NK's definition of "serious offence"

Probably something that'd get you into jail in normal countries.

But then, I suppose your guides wouldn't be entirely keen on you leaving the official tour route. So yeah, there are a couple of (pretty obvious) things you really shouldn't do. But those are generally quite obvious, and don't really require care at all.

[Grenartia]

My question is, how many people must somebody oppress and kill to be convicted of crimes against humanity?

Many? I'm sure someone's come up with a starting point for simplicity's sake

At least enough to convict KJU.

As has been said here plenty of times, the chance of something going wrong for a tourist in North Korea actually isn't big at all.

Actually, with all the state surveillance you're under as a possible spy, it's probably one of the safest places in the world.

Not safe from the government. One wrong move, and they'll frame you for anything they possibly can (which, given their bullshit, is a lot), and destroy any evidence that will exonerate you (if not outright openly ignoring it).

So yes, maybe a tourist there is safe from the citizens, but almost certainly not from the government.

[Herrebrugh]

Actually, with all the state surveillance you're under as a possible spy, it's probably one of the safest places in the world.

Not safe from the government. One wrong move, and they'll frame you for anything they possibly can (which, given their bullshit, is a lot), and destroy any evidence that will exonerate you (if not outright openly ignoring it).

So yes, maybe a tourist there is safe from the citizens, but almost certainly not from the government.

If anything, the North Korean government wants more tourists. Things like this will not improve tourism.