Schappelle, Spying & Refugees, Australia-Indonesia Thread

[Australian rePublic]

Very true. But why would anyone visit Bali, or any part of Indonesia for that matter? It's poor, it's dirty, they hate us, they're corrupt, the food is not safe, it's drug ridden, and that's only the half of it. At this rate, if flying to Europe or Asia, I would specifically choose an airline who's flight path does not go over Indonesia, in case of a crash

I'm told Singapore and Brunei are awesome, and even though Timor-Leste is Oceania's little African failed state, it is much more Western-friendly.

The more oceanic island states also seem way more interesting.

Meh, our Western pond should be much tighter~ As a kid I always found Oceania the most interesting continent.

Exactly

[AiliailiA]

I don't care about Schappelle. She probably didn't do it, but half the prisoners in Kerobokan probably didn't do what they were accused of either.

The Stop The Boats strategy seems to be a combination of Stop Telling Anyone About The Boats, and trying to convince the whole world that Australians are bastards so don't go there.

Australia needs the co-operation of the Indonesian coast guard to make turning back boats a workable strategy. That will probably involve paying Indonesia money for that specific purpose, plus a bit for each person turned back (who will now be a refugee in Indonesia, where in most cases they wouldn't even be if they hadn't been trying to get to Australia).

Foreign aid isn't for that, and trying to make Indonesia do anything by threatening to withdraw aid is liable to make them so angry they refuse the aid no matter how much good it's doing.

In any case, cutting Australian aid would achieve nothing good. Just last month the Abbott government cut the approximately half billion dollar annual aid to Indonesia by 10%. Indonesia didn't react because Australia cut their aid to most other recipients at the same time (poor little rich country that Abbott's Australia is). Cutting punitively with the deliberate intent to influence Indonesia's government policy is quite another matter: they'd be livid and start throwing around words like "imperialist" ... and then, China would fill the gap by increasing its own aid to Indonesia (which averages about $3.8 billion annually over the last decade, though Chinese aid is more targetted towards infrastructure and industry, revealing their export market and resource insurance interest in giving aid). It would do so much harm to Australia's regional interests you couldn't buy enough beer to make it seem like a good idea. Even though half a billion will buy a lot of beer.

Those little orange lifeboats cost about $70,000 each, btw.

[AiliailiA]

Very true. But why would anyone visit Bali, or any part of Indonesia for that matter? It's poor, it's dirty, they hate us, they're corrupt, the food is not safe, it's drug ridden, and that's only the half of it. At this rate, if flying to Europe or Asia, I would specifically choose an airline who's flight path does not go over Indonesia, in case of a crash

I'm told Singapore and Brunei are awesome, and even though Timor-Leste is Oceania's little African failed state, it is much more Western-friendly.

Timor-Leste is "western friendly" because they had a good long taste of what being ruled by Jakarta is like.

[Imperial isa]

Two words: Amanda Knox.

Is it just me, or do Anglo countries think that their citizens are always upstanding angels and should be exempt from the law whenever they go overseas?

I think we're just gullible. Exactly zero fucks were given about the obviously guilty Bali Nine.

Aren't they still waiting all these years to be shot ?

[Respawn]

I don't care about Schappelle. She probably didn't do it

Really? What makes you say that? If she isn't guilty of drug smuggling, she is at least guilty of being unconscionably stupid.

Either way, it's quite sad to see the Corby family profiteering from all this. Her autobiography, her sister suing Channel 7 etc. Soon they'll probably make a telemovie and get even more cash from it. Keep milking them cows.

The Stop The Boats strategy seems to be a combination of Stop Telling Anyone About The Boats, and trying to convince the whole world that Australians are bastards so don't go there.

Indeed. Interesting how Australian media seems to alternate between these two stories:

-Indonesia refuses to stop letting non-australian criminals escape to australia
-Indonesia refuses to let australian criminals escape to australia

[AiliailiA]

I think we're just gullible. Exactly zero fucks were given about the obviously guilty Bali Nine.

Aren't they still waiting all these years to be shot ?

Only Sukumaran and Chan. Their appeals have been exhausted and only Presidential clemency can save them now. The others got 20 years or life imprisonment.

[Electrum]

Aren't they still waiting all these years to be shot ?

Only Sukumaran and Chan. Their appeals have been exhausted and only Presidential clemency can save them now. The others got 20 years or life imprisonment.

It's been two years since they got charged with the death penalty... When will the death penalty happen?

[AiliailiA]

I don't care about Schappelle. She probably didn't do it

Really? What makes you say that?

Utter lack of physical evidence. Surveillance in the airport wasn't working, evidence was contaminated. The court refused to grant the defense's request that the bag containing the drugs be tested for ... wait for it ... fingerprints.

If she isn't guilty of drug smuggling, she is at least guilty of being unconscionably stupid.

Like, maybe she let someone else put something in her bag without checking what that was? Or maybe found a big bag of weed she'd never seen before (the baggage handler theory) and decided to keep it? The former would be rather stupid, the latter though I'm not sure.

Or maybe you're referring to how she declined the Australian government offer of legal representation and picked a lawyer out of the phone book

Either way, it's quite sad to see the Corby family profiteering from all this. Her autobiography, her sister suing Channel 7 etc. Soon they'll probably make a telemovie and get even more cash from it. Keep milking them cows.

The Stop The Boats strategy seems to be a combination of Stop Telling Anyone About The Boats, and trying to convince the whole world that Australians are bastards so don't go there.

Indeed. Interesting how Australian media seems to alternate between these two stories:

-Indonesia refuses to stop letting non-australian criminals escape to australia
-Indonesia refuses to let australian criminals escape to australia

Australian media can be awful. The ABC seems to be holding its nerve though.

[AiliailiA]

Only Sukumaran and Chan. Their appeals have been exhausted and only Presidential clemency can save them now. The others got 20 years or life imprisonment.

It's been two years since they got charged with the death penalty... When will the death penalty happen?

Honestly I have no idea. Maybe a long time.

[Costa Fierro]

I'm told Singapore and Brunei are awesome, and even though Timor-Leste is Oceania's little African failed state, it is much more Western-friendly.

East Timor isn't failed. That belongs with Papua New Guinea and half of the Pacific that isn't owned by France (barring Samoa).

Meh, our Western pond should be much tighter~ As a kid I always found Oceania the most interesting continent.

Oh if only people had as much interest as you did.

[Electrum]

Australian media can be awful. The ABC seems to be holding its nerve though.

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transc ... 937354.htm

Seems like not even the ABC can be immune to the bad quality of Indonesia-related stories. Here's a recent (the most recent actually) episode of Media Watch which explored the ABC's decision to go with the story about the Australian Navy's brutality against asylum seekers.

[Costa Fierro]

The Stop The Boats strategy seems to be a combination of Stop Telling Anyone About The Boats, and trying to convince the whole world that Australians are bastards so don't go there.

Abbot being in the big boy seat is certainly seeing to that.

Australia needs the co-operation of the Indonesian coast guard to make turning back boats a workable strategy.

That's optimistic. Whilst they're at it, perhaps Australia should also inform the Indonesians their fishermen are catching fish illegally also.

[AiliailiA]

The Stop The Boats strategy seems to be a combination of Stop Telling Anyone About The Boats, and trying to convince the whole world that Australians are bastards so don't go there.

Abbot being in the big boy seat is certainly seeing to that.

Australia needs the co-operation of the Indonesian coast guard to make turning back boats a workable strategy.

That's optimistic. Whilst they're at it, perhaps Australia should also inform the Indonesians their fishermen are catching fish illegally also.

Poachers in Australian waters are boarded and their catch seized. They may also lose their boat. If they're Indonesian, their government is informed but doesn't really get a say in it. It's Australia's responsibility to police it's own waters, just as with any country.

The Indonesian coast guard doesn't have the equipment to detect and track boats at night or in bad weather, and the sheer number of "leaky boats" operating in coastal waters there is staggering. It's counter-intuitive by looking at a map (Indonesia looks small) but the Indonesian coastline is twice the length of Australia's.

If the Australian Navy wants asylum seeker boats towed back to shore on the Indonesian side (through Indonesian territorial waters) then it has to get the Indonesian coast guard to do that. This involves Australia paying them, that's the only way to get it done. Perhaps Australia will even need to provide and supply the vessels you're expecting the Indonesian coast guard to use to help you with your brown people problem.

Indonesia is fully within it's rights to say "those people haven't committed any crime on our side of the line, if they've committed one on yours then that's your problem". They have the UN Convention on Refugees on their side, which btw Australia is a signatory to.

And like I said before, you'll probably have to pay Indonesia per person towed back as well as paying the coast guard costs, if you want them to help with it. Australia having only sea borders doesn't change the fact that when you stop a refugee at the border, you force the country on the other side of that border to take them instead. You can't expect Indonesia to help you with that for nothing, especially considering how many dirt-poor people they have already.

[Vitaphone Racing]

It really would be much cheaper to make a weekly flight to PNG and drop off the latest arrivals.

[AiliailiA]

Australian media can be awful. The ABC seems to be holding its nerve though.

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transc ... 937354.htm

Seems like not even the ABC can be immune to the bad quality of Indonesia-related stories. Here's a recent (the most recent actually) episode of Media Watch which explored the ABC's decision to go with the story about the Australian Navy's brutality against asylum seekers.

Indeed.

Claims of burns and torture first surfaced on Indonesian news sites on 7th January.

The burns claims were repeated by Agence France Presse on the 8th.

And on the 9th they made it to Channel Seven which showed a video from a boat the Navy had intercepted and talked to asylum seekers making the claims


... We believe the ABC should have been far more cautious, given the evidence it had, and given it was making such a big call against the Navy.

"We" being Media Watch.

Seizing on poorly-researched accusations and publishing them as news, is not the way to deal with the situation. The ABC was very likely wrong there, and if (more likely, when) the accusations are proven wrong, the ABC should issue a retraction on every outlet the "news" was reported in.

The situation however is that the Australian Navy is doing something out there near the maritime border but the government won't say what ... because it would supposedly help the 'people smugglers'. It's very disturbing: it's the extension of 2000's era special measures against terrorists (which in Australia were similar to US Patriot Act provisions) to people who almost certainly are not terrorists, or even motorcycle gang members. Whether they even break a law by entering Australian waters seeking asylum isn't clear; imo not, only the skipper of an asylum-seeker boat deliberately violates maritime sovereignty, and the passengers should be considered asylum seekers if they report promptly to a government official and seek asylum.

The attempt of the Australian government to suppress information about what it is actually doing, in peacetime, involving people who almost certainly are not terrorists, invites all news outlets and all pundits and basically everyone to seize on whatever "news" they can get. This cannot be good for democracy. I would say, "not good for an open society" but I'm afraid that horse has bolted. Ain't no open society, protecting even the basics of democracy is where we're at now.

[AiliailiA]

It really would be much cheaper to make a weekly flight to PNG and drop off the latest arrivals.

Call it "food aid".

[Australian rePublic]

I don't care about Schappelle. She probably didn't do it, but half the prisoners in Kerobokan probably didn't do what they were accused of either.

The Stop The Boats strategy seems to be a combination of Stop Telling Anyone About The Boats, and trying to convince the whole world that Australians are bastards so don't go there.

What ever floats their boats and keeps them out of our waters

Australia needs the co-operation of the Indonesian

Yeah like that's gonna happen

coast guard to make turning back boats a workable strategy. That will probably involve paying Indonesia money for that specific purpose, plus a bit for each person turned back

Because we don't give them enough our money in foreign aid

Foreign aid isn't for that,

Obviously

and trying to make Indonesia do anything by threatening to withdraw aid is liable to make them so angry they refuse the aid no matter how much good it's doing.

Win-win (for Australia)

In any case, cutting Australian aid would achieve nothing good. Just last month the Abbott government cut the approximately half billion dollar annual aid to Indonesia by 10%. Indonesia didn't react because Australia cut their aid to most other recipients at the same time (poor little rich country that Abbott's Australia is). Cutting punitively with the deliberate intent to influence Indonesia's government policy is quite another matter: they'd be livid and start throwing around words like "imperialist" ... and then, China would fill the gap by increasing its own aid to Indonesia (which averages about $3.8 billion annually over the last decade, though Chinese aid is more targetted towards infrastructure and industry, revealing their export market and resource insurance interest in giving aid).

So?

It would do so much harm to Australia's regional interests you couldn't buy enough beer to make it seem like a good idea. Even though half a billion will buy a lot of beer.

How So?

Those little orange lifeboats cost about $70,000 each, btw.

[/quote]
And mainting everyone that is able to fit in that boat in Australia would be cheaper because?

[Neu Leonstein]

It really would be much cheaper to make a weekly flight to PNG and drop off the latest arrivals.

Considering just how much of a complete and utter non-issue the integration of every single boat arrival would be for Australian society, I must conclude that your opposition to their being settled here is based on sheer malice.

[Vitaphone Racing]

It really would be much cheaper to make a weekly flight to PNG and drop off the latest arrivals.

Considering just how much of a complete and utter non-issue the integration of every single boat arrival would be for Australian society, I must conclude that your opposition to their being settled here is based on sheer malice.

And you'd be wrong. My opposition to boat arrivals is the same one the Labor party has; it's completely unethical and inhumane to encourage people to risk their lives in order to seek asylum. The only way to break the people smuggling trade is to remove the service that they promise.

[Neu Leonstein]

And you'd be wrong. My opposition to boat arrivals is the same one the Labor party has; it's completely unethical and inhumane to encourage people to risk their lives in order to seek asylum. The only way to break the people smuggling trade is to remove the service that they promise.

In that case you might as well cut the smugglers out of the business and establish a functional system for letting people in. Past legislation has done preciously little to stop migration, and I don't see why it should. If someone flees Afghanistan or Sri Lanka, they know of a place called Australia where life is much better. They get whatever cash they have, pack up what they can carry and make a trip that neither of us would last through, and then they end up in Indonesia. If they're lucky, that's the first time they hear about Australian immigration laws. Just as likely is that they don't speak the language and have no idea. And the smugglers aren't going to tell them.

And even when they do find out, if you consider how these people are treated in Indonesia, quite frankly most of them are not going to give up at that stage. These are some of the most motivated, ambitious and hardy people living in these places. Sure, they have no education and are ripped out of their environment. But for the most part they're not going to lose hope at that stage. They'll try their luck.

The crazy thing is when I think of these people, and compare them to those already in living in Australia, and hear about how they're going to be a burden. It's nuts. The kinds of journeys these people choose to make and then go through is better than any stack of forms designed to find out who will be able to contribute to a society.

[Vitaphone Racing]

And you'd be wrong. My opposition to boat arrivals is the same one the Labor party has; it's completely unethical and inhumane to encourage people to risk their lives in order to seek asylum. The only way to break the people smuggling trade is to remove the service that they promise.

In that case you might as well cut the smugglers out of the business and establish a functional system for letting people in. Past legislation has done preciously little to stop migration, and I don't see why it should. If someone flees Afghanistan or Sri Lanka, they know of a place called Australia where life is much better. They get whatever cash they have, pack up what they can carry and make a trip that neither of us would last through, and then they end up in Indonesia. If they're lucky, that's the first time they hear about Australian immigration laws. Just as likely is that they don't speak the language and have no idea. And the smugglers aren't going to tell them.

Not that I'm missing your point or anything but those ads are multilingual and splashed through newspapers worldwide. We're seeing the effects of this law; boat arrivals dived and aren't making a resurgence.

To me it's a mystery why people wouldn't fly to Australia instead and claim refugee status on arrival. Surely you don't need a visa to get on the plane.

And even when they do find out, if you consider how these people are treated in Indonesia, quite frankly most of them are not going to give up at that stage. These are some of the most motivated, ambitious and hardy people living in these places. Sure, they have no education and are ripped out of their environment. But for the most part they're not going to lose hope at that stage. They'll try their luck.

Which highlights the need to improve the way to make claims for refugee status without travelling to Australia, whether that be in Sri Lanka or Iran or Indonesia.

The crazy thing is when I think of these people, and compare them to those already in living in Australia, and hear about how they're going to be a burden. It's nuts. The kinds of journeys these people choose to make and then go through is better than any stack of forms designed to find out who will be able to contribute to a society.

The stack of forms is more about ensuring that they are who they say they are. That stack of forms is a must and is much of the reason why processing claims takes so long and why most asylum seekers find themselves in a detention center on arrival until their claims are processed. Without this much, there's no way to maintain a functioning immigration system.

[AiliailiA]

I don't care about Schappelle. She probably didn't do it, but half the prisoners in Kerobokan probably didn't do what they were accused of either.
[/qupte]
1

What ever floats their boats and keeps them out of our waters 2


Yeah like that's gonna happen 3

Because we don't give them enough our money in foreign aid 4


Obviously 5


Win-win (for Australia) 6

So? 7


How So? 8

And mainting everyone that is able to fit in that boat in Australia would be cheaper because? 9

If you can't master the art of breaking up a post you're replying to using quote tags, then edit numbers into the paragraphs you meant to reply to and reply by the numbers.

Like I will do. I won't waste my time trying to correct your formatting mistakes.

1 Great, we agree on something.

2 This seems to be a joke, but I don't get it it. Moving on ...

3 Why not? Indonesia and Australia have co-operated before. For instance, in tracking down and prosecuting the Bali bombers.

4 Foreign aid is charity, at a government level. Australian foreign aid demonstrates Australian good will towards the people of Indonesia. It is far more targeted that way, than Chinese foreign aid which aims to develop mines, roads and ports for the trade benefit of China.

5 So you agree with me, that foreign aid is not just a bribe to get whatever Australia wants? It is charity based on need?

6 Win 1: make Indonesians angry. Win 2: Australia gets to keep half a billion dollars. Is that what you mean by "win/win"?

7 So: Australia abdicates from the South East Asia and Pacific bloc. The US is the only friend it needs, and it throws every other country in the region to the mercy of China, and throws itself at the mercy of the United States. You see no problem with this.

8Australians of the future, surrounded by an Asia/Pacific dominated by China, won't be able to look back on a decision which threw away the prospect of a South East Asia/Pacific bloc, without crying. Half a billion dollars worth of beer won't make it alright: Australians spend that much on beer every six weeks.

Australia has a strategic position at the 'edge of the map', and the vast distance commanded by air between Australia's northern waters and its southern waters constitutes a massive hold over the passage between the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. It also has better strategic position to command the Southern Ocean and the neutral continent of Antarctica, than any other nation. Despite Australia's small population, and modest economic and military clout, it is a very useful ally to ANY major power: to the US certainly, but potentially to China or India, or to federation of South East Asian and Pacific nations.

Don't burn your boats just yet. Play the game a little longer and you may find you can do better than being "deputy sheriff" for the United States.

9 I just pointed that out. I found it interesting.

[Neu Leonstein]

Not that I'm missing your point or anything but those ads are multilingual and splashed through newspapers worldwide. We're seeing the effects of this law; boat arrivals dived and aren't making a resurgence.

Of course they've declined. The boats are being turned around. But that's not a measure of success, especially in light of what the ABC has reported is happening to the people on these boats. What I want to know is whether there are fewer boats taking off.

To me it's a mystery why people wouldn't fly to Australia instead and claim refugee status on arrival. Surely you don't need a visa to get on the plane.

That's what makes the whole issue so incredibly stupid.

There are somewhere around half a million immigration arriving in Australia per year. Net of emigration, that's around 250,000 (Source).

There were 26,000 people asking for asylum in 2012/13. And of those, 8,300 came by plane. Of the rest, the majority end up having visas granted, indicating that they have legitimate reasons to go to Australia (Source).

Which highlights the need to improve the way to make claims for refugee status without travelling to Australia, whether that be in Sri Lanka or Iran or Indonesia.

You think there's any chance of this happening? The whole issue is entirely framed by a 'swarthy hordes overrunning us' story, largely courtesy of our friends in the conservative establishment and happily tolerated by the ALP. The politicians may occasionally pay lip service to the fact that what's happening to these people is genuinely terrible, but they would never admit that it is the fault of DIMMI and the politicians themselves.

The stack of forms is more about ensuring that they are who they say they are. That stack of forms is a must and is much of the reason why processing claims takes so long and why most asylum seekers find themselves in a detention center on arrival until their claims are processed. Without this much, there's no way to maintain a functioning immigration system.

That's not what I meant. There are stacks of forms to fill out for normal, non-refugee immigrants - ultimately aimed at establishing that they're going to be valuable members of society. And yet, there's no way that these forms, or the interviews, can actually establish this. The refugees on the other hand go through a self-selection process that looks to me much more effective.

Quite frankly, who they are is more or less irrelevant. That they made the trip is not.

[Respawn]

Utter lack of physical evidence. Surveillance in the airport wasn't working, evidence was contaminated. The court refused to grant the defense's request that the bag containing the drugs be tested for ... wait for it ... fingerprints.

I don't know, there are just too many discrepancies in Schapelle's story. Like, why would she need to bring a bodyboard to Bali? Her family distributes bodyboards in Bali, of all things. There was no need for her to bring one.
If anything, she did not put the drugs there herself. Her brother probably did it and she took the blame thinking they would go lightly on her. So she is either guilty of either covering up for her brother or the drugs were hers.
At the end of the day, she was found guilty by the court. We, the public, are not privy to all the fine details of the case, the court judged her based on the evidence provided. Then again, if she was tried in Australia, she would have been let off because of all the "reasonable doubt' that exists.

It doesn't matter anymore. She is out of prison now. It's a shame Rudd didn't spy on Indonesia a bit more, they might have been mad enough to keep her in jail.

Like, maybe she let someone else put something in her bag without checking what that was? Or maybe found a big bag of weed she'd never seen before (the baggage handler theory) and decided to keep it? The former would be rather stupid, the latter though I'm not sure.

Or maybe you're referring to how she declined the Australian government offer of legal representation and picked a lawyer out of the phone book

That, and not only smuggling marijuana to country with such wack drug laws, but also taking said marijuana to a country where the price of weed is dirt cheap compared to Australia. It's like taking cocaine to Colombia. Such a bizarre thing to do.

[Respawn]

Glad to hear our Schappelle is free at last. Modern day Ned Kelly, she is.

Welcome to Australia. Our national heroes: Ned Kelly, Chopper Reid, Schapelle Corby and that crappy ice skater who was coming last but only won because of pure luck. Real Aussie battlers they are.