Transgender Woman in Dressing Room: Controversy/Debate

[Shnercropolis]

So the lesson is, if you're transgendered, don't make a big stink about which bathroom you use.

Suffer in silence or people will hurt you is a shitty lesson.

It's a truthful one.

[Des-Bal]

It's a truthful one.

So was don't get uppity or we'll hang you. It was just as unacceptable then.

[Shnercropolis]

It's a truthful one.

So was don't get uppity or we'll hang you. It was just as unacceptable then.

Ahh, I see, you're asking for a more widespread societal change. Sorry, buddy, but nothing you individually can do will change this particular issue. Only time will.

[Des-Bal]

Ahh, I see, you're asking for a more widespread societal change. Sorry, buddy, but nothing you individually can do will change this particular issue. Only time will.

Bull. Shit. Do you know James Meredith was? He was a gentlemen who had just about enough of saying things will get better in time. He drew a line in the sand and with federal forces behind him said if you're going to fight about it then that's just how it's gonna go. I'm not asking for people to embrace things they don't understand, that's fruitless. I'm asking for polices that aren't absurd, I'm asking for an end to policies that seek to uphold the status quo, and I'm asking for a good reason why that isn't acceptable.

[Shnercropolis]

Ahh, I see, you're asking for a more widespread societal change. Sorry, buddy, but nothing you individually can do will change this particular issue. Only time will.

Bull. Shit. Do you know James Meredith was? He was a gentlemen who had just about enough of saying things will get better in time. He drew a line in the sand and with federal forces behind him said if you're going to fight about it then that's just how it's gonna go. I'm not asking for people to embrace things they don't understand, that's fruitless. I'm asking for polices that aren't absurd, I'm asking for an end to policies that seek to uphold the status quo, and I'm asking for a good reason why that isn't acceptable.

OK, name a policy you want implemented.

[Des-Bal]

OK, name a policy you want implemented.

1. Don't out transgendered students.
2. Stop segregating by gender.

[Shnercropolis]

OK, name a policy you want implemented.

1. Don't out transgendered students.
2. Stop segregating by gender.

1) That's easy. If they don't want to tell anyone they don't have to.
2) What if somebody was sure they didn't want to share a bathroom with the opposite gender? You'd be infringing upon their rights.

[Des-Bal]

1) That's easy. If they don't want to tell anyone they don't have to.
2) What if somebody was sure they didn't want to share a bathroom with the opposite gender? You'd be infringing upon their rights.

1.That's literally the opposite of what you were just saying.
2.There is no right to get exactly what you want.

[Shnercropolis]

1) That's easy. If they don't want to tell anyone they don't have to.
2) What if somebody was sure they didn't want to share a bathroom with the opposite gender? You'd be infringing upon their rights.

1.That's literally the opposite of what you were just saying.
2.There is no right to get exactly what you want.

1) What the hell are you talking about? The whole idea is that if someone is shy about the whole thing, they don't have to tell anyone at all, but they have to use the same bathroom. If they feel brave and empowered and such, then they can let everyone know. It's not as if everyone won't know anyway because they'll be the only person of their sex(probably) using that bathroom, unless that person is just a massive pervert or something.
2) Then there is no right to go to the exact bathroom you want. Why do you thing public bathrooms are always so crappy?

[Des-Bal]

1) What the hell are you talking about? The whole idea is that if someone is shy about the whole thing, they don't have to tell anyone at all, but they have to use the same bathroom. If they feel brave and empowered and such, then they can let everyone know. It's not as if everyone won't know anyway because they'll be the only person of their sex(probably) using that bathroom, unless that person is just a massive pervert or something.
2) Then there is no right to go to the exact bathroom you want. Why do you thing public bathrooms are always so crappy?

1.Suffer in silence you mean.
2.Then there's no reason to have them segregated.

[Shnercropolis]

1) What the hell are you talking about? The whole idea is that if someone is shy about the whole thing, they don't have to tell anyone at all, but they have to use the same bathroom. If they feel brave and empowered and such, then they can let everyone know. It's not as if everyone won't know anyway because they'll be the only person of their sex(probably) using that bathroom, unless that person is just a massive pervert or something.
2) Then there is no right to go to the exact bathroom you want. Why do you thing public bathrooms are always so crappy?

1.Suffer in silence you mean.
2.Then there's no reason to have them segregated.

1) They can suffer loudly too, there's nothing wrong with that.
2) Yes there is, because some(probably most) people want it that way. It's a matter of opinion how bathrooms are organized, not rights.

[Des-Bal]

1) They can suffer loudly too, there's nothing wrong with that.
2) Yes there is, because some(probably most) people want it that way. It's a matter of opinion how bathrooms are organized, not rights.

If popular opinion wants black and whites in separate facilities we don't allow it.

[Anivromia]

Bathrooms should be a fairly simple issue since there's only one main thing you do in there, and regardless of who's around you, it's supposed to be entirely private. No real reason to separate them into male/female if you can increase the privacy of bathrooms in general.

Locker rooms on the other hand...I have no idea how to integrate trans people. I suppose the only thing to do is use the locker room of the sex you appear as. Much like how gay guys can be accepted into a men's room, as long as they don't make a point of being gay then nobody will feel uncomfortable around them.

Tbh though, if nudity wasn't considered shameful or sexual in all cases, the locker room thing wouldn't be an issue. Too bad society.

[Shnercropolis]

1) They can suffer loudly too, there's nothing wrong with that.
2) Yes there is, because some(probably most) people want it that way. It's a matter of opinion how bathrooms are organized, not rights.

If popular opinion wants black and whites in separate facilities we don't allow it.

Then that would be undermining democracy. The reason why the civil rights movement was about rights was because there were people who were technically allowed to participate in democracy(and thus end segregation) but were not allowed to because of other people unlawfully preventing them. In this case, people who want unisex bathrooms would (most likely) be a tiny minority of the overall population. If 75% of the states' populations and 66% of the senate and house of representatives wanted to, they could repeal the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments and make slavery legal again. One of the problems with democracy is that it is subject to society's whims, and one of society's whims is that we have different bathrooms for different genders.

[Des-Bal]

Then that would be undermining democracy. The reason why the civil rights movement was about rights was because there were people who were technically allowed to participate in democracy(and thus end segregation) but were not allowed to because of other people unlawfully preventing them. In this case, people who want unisex bathrooms would (most likely) be a tiny minority of the overall population. If 75% of the states' populations and 66% of the senate and house of representatives wanted to, they could repeal the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments and make slavery legal again. One of the problems with democracy is that it is subject to society's whims, and one of society's whims is that we have different bathrooms for different genders.

The civil rights movement was WHOLLY undemocratic. They went through the courts because they knew they didn't have the majorities necessary to create change. If democracy would achieve the desired goals the movement would be unnecessary.

[Shnercropolis]

Then that would be undermining democracy. The reason why the civil rights movement was about rights was because there were people who were technically allowed to participate in democracy(and thus end segregation) but were not allowed to because of other people unlawfully preventing them. In this case, people who want unisex bathrooms would (most likely) be a tiny minority of the overall population. If 75% of the states' populations and 66% of the senate and house of representatives wanted to, they could repeal the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments and make slavery legal again. One of the problems with democracy is that it is subject to society's whims, and one of society's whims is that we have different bathrooms for different genders.

The civil rights movement was WHOLLY undemocratic. They went through the courts because they knew they didn't have the majorities necessary to create change. If democracy would achieve the desired goals the movement would be unnecessary.

They went through the courts because they knew they were being denied rights that were stated in the law, which was made democratically. That's a good enough reason as any. But there has never been a law(that I know of) passed that said unisex bathrooms are a must. So courts are ruled out too.

[Grave_n_idle]

So was don't get uppity or we'll hang you. It was just as unacceptable then.

Ahh, I see, you're asking for a more widespread societal change. Sorry, buddy, but nothing you individually can do will change this particular issue. Only time will.

As Margaret Mead famously said:

"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

[Shnercropolis]

Ahh, I see, you're asking for a more widespread societal change. Sorry, buddy, but nothing you individually can do will change this particular issue. Only time will.

As Margaret Mead famously said:

"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

Wow. I've never respected Margaret Mead's opinion less than now, which is to say that I've never known Margaret Mead's opinion until now.

[Des-Bal]

They went through the courts because they knew they were being denied rights that were stated in the law, which was made democratically. That's a good enough reason as any. But there has never been a law(that I know of) passed that said unisex bathrooms are a must. So courts are ruled out too.

They weren't made democratically. The Supreme Court, a wholly undemocratic institution interpreted amendments that were passed in a wholly undemocratic fashion.

[Grave_n_idle]

As Margaret Mead famously said:

"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

Wow. I've never respected Margaret Mead's opinion less than now, which is to say that I've never known Margaret Mead's opinion until now.

*shrugs*

Your call. She got the Presidential Medal of Freedom, you think we should wait for things to change because people can't change stuff. It is tough to pick sides.

[Novus Niciae]

This has been revealed to be a hoax that was unquestioningly reported as fact without any fact checking.

http://www.transadvocate.com/toronto-newspaper-pushes-trans-hoax-claims-no-duty.htm

[Orham]

So the lesson is, if you're transgendered, don't make a big stink about which bathroom you use.

Not familiar with the requirements to transition, I see. A small problem, and easily fixed. Among these requirements is to live full-time as the target sex for a set period of time (a year, for example). This would naturally entail a legitimate need to use the appropriate facilities, would it not? That's why a transperson who seeks to complete their transition doesn't have the option of simply keeping their head down, moral outrage at the injustice of asking them to do so in the first place aside. There's a practical problem with your answer, not just a moral one.

Ahh, I see, you're asking for a more widespread societal change. Sorry, buddy, but nothing you individually can do will change this particular issue. Only time will.

...who said anything about acting alone to evoke a change?

OK, name a policy you want implemented.

Now there's a good question. I might suggest as a starting measure that firms be persuaded to construct at least one set of unisex facilities (changing rooms, restrooms, etc.) at each of their locations. Should the expense prove to be a deal breaker, LGBT activist groups (especially those which focus strongly on transgender issues) might direct some of the funding they raise toward mitigating (or perhaps even fully covering) the cost of the endeavor.

This has been revealed to be a hoax that was unquestioningly reported as fact without any fact checking.

http://www.transadvocate.com/toronto-newspaper-pushes-trans-hoax-claims-no-duty.htm

I am interested to see the OP's response to this turn of events.

*glares out of the corner of her eyes*

EDIT: Avoided double post.

[Kiruri]

Never underestimate people's ability to be stupid.

If you have a penis then you use the mens room, if you have a vagina then you use the womens room.
Regardless of what they were born with.
HE had a penis, so HE is a MAN, so HE should use the MENS room. End of debate.
If you are trans and you want to use the womans room then you need to have the operation to get a vagina.

That link is liberal propaganda and is complete bullshit.

However, there is one thing we can agree upon: that the truth about transgenderism and sexuality needs to be taught in schools. The truth that transgenderism is wrong and you're born to be attracted to the opposite sex/gender (they're the same thing). It's unnatural and wrong to change your reproductive organs and thus claim that you are the other gender.

It's wrong because it's denying the gender you have been given at birth. If one is born with a penis, one is a man, and was meant to be a man, and shouldn't question what God has in store for oneself. Likewise if one is born with a vagina.

You see, I don't believe that gender is a social construct, like you and others do. As I stated before, gender and sex are one and the same, and all relate to the sexual organs one has from birth. There are not two "main" genders, there are two genders. If someone ends up identifying as the one different from their physical sex/gender, it is indeed a problem, as they are denying who they actually are. People need to be more accepting of who they truly are or were at birth, as opposed to being under the false pretense that they can magically change who they are just because they don't like the gender they were born with.

Actually, one can stop being transgender much easier than they can stop being homosexual, as they can just not switch organs in the first place, whereas homosexuality is a completely different subject that I'm not willing to discuss in this thread. What they can do to stop feeling like the opposite gender is to see a therapist for their abnormal feelings. You're born the way you are for a reason, so you should stop feeling like something you aren't and just learn to accept yourself!

There is no societal pressure against people who think they're the opposite gender. All the pressure is from the inside, and can all go away if they merely realize that they were meant to be the sex they were born with.

Wow, how resentful... such a sullen attitude, but meh, nothing I can do about it

In all seriousness, I've always been one to support those "integrated" bathrooms/restrooms. So long as each unit is adequately made private (since I enjoy my privacy) then there's no problem. I've never really seen the problem behind why people fear restrooms for both biological genders; I've never seen anyone nude in a restroom, not even in the urinals, and if that's what the person's concerned about, then use the stall.

As for the bathrooms/locker rooms (what I call a place where someone bathes/showers), I believe the option of private shower stalls should be made available, I as well as open/communal shower stalls. There's nothing sexual about a nude body (unless you make it out to be), so nobody should fear that aspect.

Imho, its gonna take a loong time for people to lose all their phobias, especially transphobia

[Ethel mermania]

1) That's easy. If they don't want to tell anyone they don't have to.
2) What if somebody was sure they didn't want to share a bathroom with the opposite gender? You'd be infringing upon their rights.

1.That's literally the opposite of what you were just saying.
2.There is no right to get exactly what you want.

locker rooms are based on sex not gender.

@2 why doesnt 2 apply to transgendered folks? the vast majority of women do not wish to declothe with penis's about. if folks didnt care we would have had unisex lockerrooms centuries ago.

[Kiruri]

That first example is why I thought Kiruri was serious despite being bi. It seemed like a routine occurrence, another seemingly decent person turning out to be transphobic. There was previously a part of me that would feel something each time someone okay would show their transphobia, but it seems to have become another completely unsurprising event each time it happens.

geesh, some people exasperate quite easily.... I'm glad you see me as seemingly decent tho The only phobia I have is of heights, so....