Pissed off about education....

[Bluth Corporation]

That still misses the point.

I (and you, in the post I quoted) were talking about appreciation as an observer, not the skills necessary to be the artist.

[Levity]

That still misses the point.

I (and you, in the post I quoted) were talking about appreciation as an observer, not the skills necessary to be the artist.

No, in my first post I very intentionally did not specify if art instruction was centered on production or appreciation. You'll apparently need to clarify "the point" of which there seem to be many in this thread.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

That still misses the point.

I (and you, in the post I quoted) were talking about appreciation as an observer, not the skills necessary to be the artist.

No, in my first post I very intentionally did not specify if art instruction was centered on production or appreciation. You'll apparently need to clarify "the point" of which there seem to be many in this thread.

Give it up Levity. For some reason, Bluth has this chip on his shoulder about science. He's revealed it in several other threads, even going so far as to claim that it's premises are ridiculous and it's conclusions unreliable.

[Rejistania]

Oscar Wilde probably explained it best:

“We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.
All art is quite useless.”

Our mathematics and our sciences do not make us human, functional though they are. It is our culture and our art that do that.

What is good about being human? Shouldn't we try our best to overcome this status?

[Hayteria]

Well if man had never taken the time to draw we would have never developed letters so we would never write things down for future generations to read.

That was to communicate, though. We don't need "art" in the "traditional" sense to communicate anymore.

Where would we be without art? Still wandering the plains and being eaten by everything else.

You can't change the past, so you never know what would've happened. It's just speculation.

Art is important today because it teaches children critical thinking skills

So do the physical sciences and social sciences alike. Hell, some could argue that even video games, at least of the strategy or adventure genres, teach children critical thinking skills, (google "Children Eat Your Trash") yet if you mention Sim City during social studies you're considered a video game junkie.

it also applies the concepts learned in your sacred math and science classes in a practical and more importantly fun way.

... if you ask me, I don't recall finding art class particularily fun. I found many of the methods for making art tedious, some almost unbearable (like the ones where we were supposed to put some kind of plaster on our faces to make a mask from) and I think that with the exception of introductory art in earlier years, (ie. talking about painting in elementary school) later art courses should be more of an optional thing, at most.

Frankly, I found geometry in math, or even Hess's Law calculations in chemistry, more fun than papier-mache or whatever they call it.

Besides, if your argument is that they could APPLY concepts from math and science, the same could be said about video games too. o.o

[Rejistania]

Well if man had never taken the time to draw we would have never developed letters so we would never write things down for future generations to read.

That was to communicate, though. We don't need "art" in the "traditional" sense to communicate anymore.

Indeed, except that the first letters were not for communication but for taxes and accounting. So, yeah, teach that to every child!

Where would we be without art? Still wandering the plains and being eaten by everything else.

You can't change the past, so you never know what would've happened. It's just speculation.

and not even a good one. Art springs up when people no longer have to care for their immediate survival. Thus you won't see much art from LDC and much art from the rich nations.

Art is important today because it teaches children critical thinking skills

So do the physical sciences and social sciences alike. Hell, some could argue that even video games, at least of the strategy or adventure genres, teach children critical thinking skills, (google "Children Eat Your Trash") yet if you mention Sim City during social studies you're considered a video game junkie.

Except that art does the worst job at teaching critical thinking. IMHO a worse one than video games or good books (!= literature). Everything which is needed for class about art has been said 10k times already. You can get through art class without one single critical thought.

Frankly, I found geometry in math, or even Hess's Law calculations in chemistry, more fun than papier-mache or whatever they call it.

QFT

Edit: I hated art classes and considered them tedious and superfluous. They should have let us sleep in during those, that way, at least my other marks would have been better.

[Ferrous Oxide]

Maths is actually useless these days. They did a study about a year back, and found than even in maths-heavy industries, most calculations are done by machines.

[Treznor]

Maths is actually useless these days. They did a study about a year back, and found than even in maths-heavy industries, most calculations are done by machines.

And how do we check to make sure those machines haven't developed a glitch?

[Bluth Corporation]

Maths is actually useless these days. They did a study about a year back, and found than even in maths-heavy industries, most calculations are done by machines.

Computation and mathematics (and it's not "maths"--it's "mathematics" or "math") are not the same thing.

And even in mathematics, there is in fact NO creativity possible. Mathematics is just a formal system, which means that it's all already there.

[Rejistania]

And even in mathematics, there is in fact NO creativity possible. Mathematics is just a formal system, which means that it's all already there.

Mathematics still require a certain creativity to create solutions for the problems. Saying it all already exists might be true (IMHO it isn't but for the sake of the argument let it be true), but the application of it onto a real-world problem for an efficient solution is a creative act.

[Skama]

History: Fail to study the past, you are doomed to repeat it.

And who said all people want to be flawless? Everyone makes mistakes anyway, instead of history (IF they don't like it) they would have learned something else to avoid other mistakes.

Science: Practical Physical Application

Not everyone wants to do one.

English: One must learn how to construct grammatically correct sentences, so that they may express themselves properly on paper.

Basic english. The only reason it is important is because it is a social skill, unlike the aforementioned ones. But advanced grammar? Nah, people would understand you without it, you'll just learn that if you like it.

Math: Calculations are needed in every day life, figuring how much of the bill is 15% so that you may give a proper tip, working on your personal budget, et cetera.

Yeah, that's social skill.
But where does advanced trigonometry fit in? Calculus?
Nah. Just some basic algebra and arithmetic. Everything else -- picked by people who are interested in (like me ).

The Arts: Proper appreciation for gifted individuals and movements.

Again, only if people are interested. Saying subject A > subject B and forcing that on schooling systems is hypocrisy, unless you are talking about social skills, which are needed to survive in society (ESPECIALLY language, since even the law is written in it ).

But other than that? Optional.



To whoever said there's no creativity in Math --> You are SO VERY wrong. I've got a lot of experience with it. And I do agree that it isn't, in crappy schools. BUT when you will need to SOLVE some problems BY YOURSELF and not from some stupid system or exercise, but INTUITIVELY DISCOVER how to solve it yourself, you will appreciate it. School sucks of course. You'd better learn it yourself from various books (NOT school books, which are full of crap).

I mean you would really change your opinion if you ever programmed a 3D rendering engine in software, trust me.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Maths is actually useless these days. They did a study about a year back, and found than even in maths-heavy industries, most calculations are done by machines.

Calculations =/= math. Most mathematicians, engineers, and scientists use calculators and modeling tools to do tedious calculations. They don't use computers to derive Lagrangians or prove the existence of a homeomorphism between manifolds. There is more to math than addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, you know.

[Skama]

Calculations =/= math. Most mathematicians, engineers, and scientists use calculators and modeling tools to do tedious calculations. They don't use computers to derive Lagrangians or prove the existence of a homeomorphism between manifolds. There is more to math than addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, you know.

Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, is arithmetic.

So I guess people who say math = calculations have never heard of algebra? Of calculus? Of trigonometry? Of transformation in space? Vectors? Matrices?

actually math is a form of calculation, but then so is every information, thus if you believe the world is 100% information, then everything is calculation

[Heaven Hieghts]

I suppose only an artist could understand my view. Art and music are very important to me, thus I dont want them to get cut from the system...

[Skama]

I suppose only an artist could understand my view. Art and music are very important to me, thus I dont want them to get cut from the system...

I agree, however please note that even though I like many of the things I still don't say they have to be mandatory simply because I like them, because I'm not going to be a hypocrite.

Also choosing one subject over another (in schools that is, being mandatory for all) when that subject is NOT a social skill (basic algebra + arithmetic, and normal grammar, that's all), then it's hypocrisy to force ppl to something which you like because you find it more important.

This usually happens more from the people obsessed with their expertise, and those are usually (mostly) so-called professors or whatever. Other means is when people use economic arguments: well guess what, let the kids decide for themselves if they want to help the economy, it's their life after all, not your slaves. I'm obsessed (a bit) with math and computers myself but I don't say they have to be mandatory simply because I like them.

Art people are usually in the minority though so I can't blame them, I fully understand.
I'm a very wide-minded guy here. I love art, I also love math, and computer programming... also physics. but that doesn't mean, I want to force ANY of these on ppl who don't like them. Period.

[Blouman Empire]

The irony in how people talk about how the market promotes innovation is that the same can be said of subsidized engineering programs at public universities.

Umm, yeah it can. Point?

Also, all the administrations are approaching this economic problem the wrong way. In order to fix a recession, it is not consumption, but rather investment that is needed, because it is investments that drive the creation of new businesses that will hire workers and create jobs. The more people spend on consumption, the less they invest.

Yeah and what are these people spending their money on? Products? Servcies? You do know that because with an increase in consumption then companies will want to meet demand as well as others wanting to cash in on this increase that they will invest more money then?

[Verdigroth]

I agree with you partially. Education is the last place you start cutting, not the first. However, I've never viewed the arts as important as Math, English, Science, or History.

History is about useless. Considering how nations sanitize what they give out.

[Dragontide]

A friend of mine that's a teacher just got her PhD. She got laid off a few days later. I mean WTF??!! These kids need teachers that can concentrate on their work. It's hard to do that when any day can be pink slip day!

[Robustian]

I just dont understand why people think art is so insignificant.

Because it is.

[Rejistania]

I suppose only an artist could understand my view. Art and music are very important to me, thus I dont want them to get cut from the system...

Best arguments for the uselessness of arts: the reason not to remove them seems to be nothing but an emotional appeal.

[NERVUN]

I suppose only an artist could understand my view. Art and music are very important to me, thus I dont want them to get cut from the system...

Best arguments for the uselessness of arts: the reason not to remove them seems to be nothing but an emotional appeal.

Really? So far all the arguments I've seen for removal has been how you just sucked at art class.

[Triniteras]

Best arguments for the uselessness of arts: the reason not to remove them seems to be nothing but an emotional appeal.

Not just emotional appeal. Some kinds of porn are drawn.
OR art can have aesthetic appeal. But then maybe aesthetics are emotional.
I don't actually study much in the way of aesthetics.
You should do that, and get back to me.

[Rejistania]

I suppose only an artist could understand my view. Art and music are very important to me, thus I dont want them to get cut from the system...

Best arguments for the uselessness of arts: the reason not to remove them seems to be nothing but an emotional appeal.

Really? So far all the arguments I've seen for removal has been how you just sucked at art class.

Okay here are some others:
* Art thrives only in a culture of government subsidies. Teaching people [that they have] to appreciate art just creates the next level of government subsidies to artists.
* Art is purely subjective and thus the marks are by definition unfair. Unfair marks make people more cycnical about school
* Art classes are expensive for schools and there is no real benefit behind them (special rooms, materials, etc).
* The purely subjective grading in art classes teaches people nothing about art and everything about how to determine what the teacher wants to hear.
* Famous art is often about deprecated ideas and moral ideas which are kept alive in this way instead of letting them die

Not just emotional appeal. Some kinds of porn are drawn.
OR art can have aesthetic appeal. But then maybe aesthetics are emotional.
I don't actually study much in the way of aesthetics.
You should do that, and get back to me.

Aesthetics are afaik partly genetic and partly emotional... so meh. (but I have to admit: hentai in art classes would have been AWESOME)

[Triniteras]

Aesthetics are afaik partly genetic and partly emotional... so meh. (but I have to admit: hentai in art classes would have been AWESOME)

You should establish an organization to work towards this.

[Rejistania]

Aesthetics are afaik partly genetic and partly emotional... so meh. (but I have to admit: hentai in art classes would have been AWESOME)

You should establish an organization to work towards this.

Seeing that I oppose state education as government brainwashing it would by highly hypocritical. And from my experience in literature classes, I could never enjoy hentai again... errr, the students couldn't.