Nigeria denies fundamental rights to homosexuals

[Lost heros]

You are comparing it to another situation. Nice try.

South Africa was the only one with Apartheid. It had a large domestic movement wanting to end Apartheid. The sanctions made that possible.

But if it was catholics, muslims, or protestants being oppressed would you care as much as you do about gays? Would you start a war for them?

Yes. Unlike homophobes, I don't like it when people are being oppressed and killed for no good reason.

[Ostroeuropa]

Seems like I am a conservative too.

I was lied to all these years

I thought I was a social democrat, but apparently not.

Think about it.
No, seriously, think about it.

I thought about it. I shrugged and took a sip of tea. Now what?

The thing is, how did Social democracy evolve as a movement realistically.

Did they take a look at the people arguing for nationalizations and revolutions and say
" This is great and I agree with you guys, but Instead, lets keep free markets and just tax people." which sounds a whole lot like, well, conservatism but with welfare. Also known as Conservatism, but more so.

Or did they look at the conservatives and go "This welfare thing is a good idea. Lets try more of that." then the other conservatives flipped their shit and declared we were communists.

[United Misotheist]

Well let me answer it with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa We aren't really at the start, this is just the latest in a series.

Regardless of the Nigerian government's position, if you live in the north, you'll be executed by a roving death squad of hardcore islamists for being gay. The same is true of roving death squads through all areas of Africa where there is no strong presence of law enforcement.

The problem is that if Nigeria is allowed to illegally worsen LGBT rights, what is to stop other African countries from taking the next step and also legislating unconstitutional death penalties against their LGBT citizens?

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

[Swedish Realm]

So you think we should go over there right? Yeah, let's not say we did. Like I said, let them handle their problems.

If one person in Sweden was threatening to say... bomb Stockholm with lets say a suitcase nuke, would you agree to stopping them? If yes, then why just because it's not a single person but a state that's said "okay we're going to kill or imprison large parts of population" should we not stop them?

I care for my land, and my people, if that were to happen, I would want the thug executed. And we could it on our own. Nigeria can handle it's own problems too. They could pull a revolution and handle it on their own, it really doesn't effect us.

[Divair]

I thought I was a social democrat, but apparently not.


I thought about it. I shrugged and took a sip of tea. Now what?

The thing is, how did Social democracy evolve as a movement realistically.

Did they take a look at the people arguing for nationalizations and revolutions and say
" This is great and I agree with you guys, but Instead, lets keep free markets and just tax people." which sounds a whole lot like, well, conservatism but with welfare. Also known as Conservatism, but more so.

Or did they look at the conservatives and go "This welfare thing is a good idea. Lets try more of that." then the other conservatives flipped their shit and declared we were communists.

Can I go with "neither"?

The problem is that if Nigeria is allowed to illegally worsen LGBT rights, what is to stop other African countries from taking the next step and also legislating unconstitutional death penalties against their LGBT citizens?

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

Wrong.

[Luveria]

The problem is that if Nigeria is allowed to illegally worsen LGBT rights, what is to stop other African countries from taking the next step and also legislating unconstitutional death penalties against their LGBT citizens?

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

It is my business.

But if it was catholics, muslims, or protestants being oppressed would you care as much as you do about gays? Would you start a war for them?

Yes.

[The New Lowlands]

I thought I was a social democrat, but apparently not.


I thought about it. I shrugged and took a sip of tea. Now what?

The thing is, how did Social democracy evolve as a movement realistically.

Did they take a look at the people arguing for nationalizations and revolutions and say
" This is great and I agree with you guys, but Instead, lets keep free markets and just tax people." which sounds a whole lot like, well, conservatism but with welfare. Also known as Conservatism, but more so.

Or did they look at the conservatives and go "This welfare thing is a good idea. Lets try more of that." then the other conservatives flipped their shit and declared we were communists.

Social Democracy was probably someone or other going "Hey, this socialism idea is great, guys, but how about we don't do the whole 'dictatorship of the proletariat' schtick?"

He proceeded to be kicked out of the DDR.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Well let me answer it with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa We aren't really at the start, this is just the latest in a series.

Regardless of the Nigerian government's position, if you live in the north, you'll be executed by a roving death squad of hardcore islamists for being gay. The same is true of roving death squads through all areas of Africa where there is no strong presence of law enforcement.

The problem is that if Nigeria is allowed to illegally worsen LGBT rights, what is to stop other African countries from taking the next step and also legislating unconstitutional death penalties against their LGBT citizens?

Nigeria didn't legislate the death penalty for LGBT citizens, the courts that did are the Islamic courts in the north, beyond the control of the Nigerian government. Nigeria's laws and basically in line with the rest of the continent with a few exceptions. Some permit people to have gay sex, but as a whole, Africa is extremely anti-LGBT. And that is why creating change will be extremely difficult, in SA for example, there was a large majority of the population who wanted change.

[Olivaero]

Tbf Social Democracy has been the status quo for quite a while now in the western world...

Not really. I'm talking Nordic model style social democracy. Not what I like to call "social democracy lite".

Well we're almost there. in the UK we just require a reform of our justice system and electoral system. Things like the NHS and economic interventionism aren't going anywhere.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The problem is that if Nigeria is allowed to illegally worsen LGBT rights, what is to stop other African countries from taking the next step and also legislating unconstitutional death penalties against their LGBT citizens?

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

Define "threatening".

[Olivaero]

If one person in Sweden was threatening to say... bomb Stockholm with lets say a suitcase nuke, would you agree to stopping them? If yes, then why just because it's not a single person but a state that's said "okay we're going to kill or imprison large parts of population" should we not stop them?

I care for my land, and my people, if that were to happen, I would want the thug executed. And we could it on our own. Nigeria can handle it's own problems too. They could pull a revolution and handle it on their own, it really doesn't effect us.

I care for humans. And I acknowledge not everyone has at their disposal the tools to make their world better.

[Ostroeuropa]

The thing is, how did Social democracy evolve as a movement realistically.

Did they take a look at the people arguing for nationalizations and revolutions and say
" This is great and I agree with you guys, but Instead, lets keep free markets and just tax people." which sounds a whole lot like, well, conservatism but with welfare. Also known as Conservatism, but more so.

Or did they look at the conservatives and go "This welfare thing is a good idea. Lets try more of that." then the other conservatives flipped their shit and declared we were communists.

Social Democracy was probably someone or other going "Hey, this socialism idea is great, guys, but how about we don't do the whole 'dictatorship of the proletariat' schtick?"

He proceeded to be kicked out of the DDR.

I'm also coming at it from a British Perspective.

Where welfare is, in essence, a Conservative plot to defeat the communists.
I'm not shitting you. It's the same as when we saw the Republicans in Europe overthrowing monarchies and decided holy shit. I guess we'd better become slightly more democratic.

[Potenco]

The problem is that if Nigeria is allowed to illegally worsen LGBT rights, what is to stop other African countries from taking the next step and also legislating unconstitutional death penalties against their LGBT citizens?

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

What and how does country matter? Objectively speaking, the suffering of an American is no better or worse than the suffering of a Nigerian, a Jew, a Palestinian or even a Swede (I maintain a playful rivalry with the Swedes due to my being a Rockford Italian)

Seriously, I hate the way people dismiss the suffering of others or attempt to bring in "cultural relativism" to try and attack any desire to change things around the world. Countries and Nationstates are human imposed things that ignore the fundamental similarities that we all share. As privileged Americans and westerners, we are obliged to whine, kick and scream for the rights of ALL the worlds people!

[United Misotheist]

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

Define "threatening".

Declaration of war, dispersing chemical or radioactive agents within one's hemisphere, intervention in an allied nation.

[Swedish Realm]

I care for my land, and my people, if that were to happen, I would want the thug executed. And we could it on our own. Nigeria can handle it's own problems too. They could pull a revolution and handle it on their own, it really doesn't effect us.

I care for humans. And I acknowledge not everyone has at their disposal the tools to make their world better.

I also care for humans, which is why sending troops will make it worse. I will not let my Kinsman be killed over such a petty situation, that can be easily resolved by Nigerian Revolution.

[Ostroeuropa]

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

What and how does country matter? Objectively speaking, the suffering of an American is no better or worse than the suffering of a Nigerian, a Jew, a Palestinian or even a Swede (I maintain a playful rivalry with the Swedes due to my being a Rockford Italian)

Seriously, I hate the way people dismiss the suffering of others or attempt to bring in "cultural relativism" to try and attack any desire to change things around the world. Countries and Nationstates are human imposed things that ignore the fundamental similarities that we all share. As privileged Americans and westerners, we are obliged to whine, kick and scream for the rights of ALL the worlds people!

You're right, but you put it in a way that makes me suspect you may be sarcastic.

[Vitaphone Racing]

The thing about this is that it's very much our business who we trade with, who we let participate in international forums, who we aid and sponsor etc. We are well within our legal rights to diplomatically isolate Nigeria and stop handing over aid. I'm not entirely convinced it will work like it did in SA, but still, we can do that.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Social Democracy was probably someone or other going "Hey, this socialism idea is great, guys, but how about we don't do the whole 'dictatorship of the proletariat' schtick?"

He proceeded to be kicked out of the DDR.

I'm also coming at it from a British Perspective.

Where welfare is, in essence, a Conservative plot to defeat the communists.
I'm not shitting you. It's the same as when we saw the Republicans in Europe overthrowing monarchies and decided holy shit. I guess we'd better become slightly more democratic.

At least they learned from Continental Europe's mistakes and prevented a crisis in time

[The New Lowlands]

I'm also coming at it from a British Perspective.

Where welfare is, in essence, a Conservative plot to defeat the communists.
I'm not shitting you. It's the same as when we saw the Republicans in Europe overthrowing monarchies and decided holy shit. I guess we'd better become slightly more democratic.

At least they learned from Continental Europe's mistakes and prevented a crisis in time

'mistakes'
say that again m8, ill bash yer f00kin hed in, sware on me mum

[Swedish Realm]

If they do, let'm. As long as it's not threatening your nation, it's none of your buisness.

What and how does country matter? Objectively speaking, the suffering of an American is no better or worse than the suffering of a Nigerian, a Jew, a Palestinian or even a Swede (I maintain a playful rivalry with the Swedes due to my being a Rockford Italian)

Seriously, I hate the way people dismiss the suffering of others or attempt to bring in "cultural relativism" to try and attack any desire to change things around the world. Countries and Nationstates are human imposed things that ignore the fundamental similarities that we all share. As privileged Americans and westerners, we are obliged to whine, kick and scream for the rights of ALL the worlds people!

We need to stop being obliged, we shouldn't view ourselves as world police. Let the Nigerians resolve their own damn problems.

[Olivaero]

I care for humans. And I acknowledge not everyone has at their disposal the tools to make their world better.

I also care for humans, which is why sending troops will make it worse. I will not let my Kinsman be killed over such a petty situation, that can be easily resolved by Nigerian Revolution.

Yeah, I'm sure i'll be a walk in the park for homosexuals to overthrow the Nigerian government. The Nigerians are as much your Kinsmen as your fellow swedes.

[Risottia]

Which is
a) a totally different thing from a right, and
b) unlikely to happen where people mix the concept of "sin" with the concept of "crime".

I would challenge you to find a crime that isn't a sin- a sin does not necessarily have to be a crime, but the opposite is categorically true.

1.A sin according to what religion?
2.Possession (not USE) of weapons of mass destruction by a private citizen. There you go.

Where exactly is theft defined as a social sin? Quit weaseling around.

My bad, sometimes it is called larceny.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/LCsearch.ht ... s%3Anycode
No result in that for "sin".
Quit making shit up. It's boring.

That's exactly what you claimed about Nigeria. They think homosexuality is a sin hence they are perfectly free to jail homosexuals.
I see a goalpost rolling down the hill. Wasn't it yours by any chance?

Correction:

So yes, it was yours.

they think homosexuality is a sin and a crime, and therefore they are perfectly free to jail homosexuals.

So the sin part you were waving around is now immaterial.

They also think lying is a sin, via common Christian dogma.

1.Source about Nigeria thinking lying is a sin because of Christian dogmas?
2.And any UNDHR signatory country should give a fuck about common Christian dogma.

And there is a right to commission of criminal acts?

No. There is a right of people not to be persecuted or deprived arbitrarily of their freedom, as per my earlier post.

Ah, I see. So the distinction of committing a criminal act is covered under "other status"? Should I be phoning the PM to tell him to set all the prisoners free, as the system is abrogating their rights?

And you continue with your "criminal" strawman. Interesting thing, the UNDHR is pretty clear-cut in prohibiting laws depriving people of their rights, unless it is strictly necessary to do so in order to defend society. People have rights; countries don't.

The Nigerian law does not discriminate.

Oh yes. It discriminates homosexuals from heterosexuals.

You missed the vital part of this statement- the word "arbitrary". Search and seizure, questioning of family members, the search of a home or correspondence, are all reasonable and accepted responses to criminal behavior, and given homosexuality is defined as criminal behavior by the state of Nigeria,

Wrong.
The state of Nigeria has no prerogative in making a law whose exact point is infringing on privacy and other rights, as per Art.30.

Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Note that it specifies holding the opinion and exchanging information as the protected rights; to my reading of the Nigerian law, homosexual inclination is not punishable, but rather acting upon that inclination.

The expression of an opinion, such as love for one person, is not limited to words.

Article 20
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
2. No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

"Peaceful" has been many years ago defined to not include "criminal". Or have you never heard of "consorting" as a crime?

Considering how the definition of homosexual acts as criminal is entirely arbitrary, as homosexual acts per se do not constitute a danger to society and are part of the rights to freedom and privacy any human enjoys as per UNDHR, this "we can define crime whatever we like" is perfectly immaterial.
Unless Nigeria wants to consider the UNDHR to be perfectly immaterial. I'd suggest them to declare officially that they reject it, then.

...despite being in letter within the conflicts of the Declaration.

The hell it is.

[Ostroeuropa]

What and how does country matter? Objectively speaking, the suffering of an American is no better or worse than the suffering of a Nigerian, a Jew, a Palestinian or even a Swede (I maintain a playful rivalry with the Swedes due to my being a Rockford Italian)

Seriously, I hate the way people dismiss the suffering of others or attempt to bring in "cultural relativism" to try and attack any desire to change things around the world. Countries and Nationstates are human imposed things that ignore the fundamental similarities that we all share. As privileged Americans and westerners, we are obliged to whine, kick and scream for the rights of ALL the worlds people!

We need to stop being obliged, we shouldn't view ourselves as world police. Let the Nigerians resolve their own damn problems.

The thing is, we signed up to be world police.
That's the UN's whole fucking point.
It's just that most of the police force is sat around eating donuts and whining about how it isn't their job.
IT IS THEIR JOB.
THEY SIGNED THE CHARTER.

Then they mock the US and it's allies for, you know, doing their fucking job.

[United Misotheist]

I care for humans. And I acknowledge not everyone has at their disposal the tools to make their world better.

I also care for humans, which is why sending troops will make it worse. I will not let my Kinsman be killed over such a petty situation, that can be easily resolved by Nigerian Revolution.

Well we wouldnt a revolution, that implies that a communist government could be established. Revolutions are dangerous, I mean personally I would not mind still being a servant of the crown.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Define "threatening".

Declaration of war, dispersing chemical or radioactive agents within one's hemisphere, intervention in an allied nation.

Then you would like to know Nigeria is our most important African trading partner and most important African diplomatic partner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria%E2 ... _relations

What else do we need to intervene, either diplomatically or militarily?