Nigeria denies fundamental rights to homosexuals

[United Misotheist]

I also won't know for certain whether dropping ice in a bathtub to heat up the water will work. Doesn't mean I can't make reasonable assumptions.

It is better to do something than to do nothing. To do nothing is to say that what Nigeria is doing is acceptable. It sets a precedent that any African country can now start killing LGBT citizens and no one will do anything to stop it.

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

[Nevanmaa]

Meh, it's Nigeria. What do you expect? There's a long way to go before gays will be accepted there, you gotta change cultural attitudes and so on.

This thread will either end in a gay marriage debate, or a flood of bigots coming to the thread, praising Nigeria. Or both.

Or in a giant left-wing circlejerk with people saying how evil Nigeria and everyone who support it are. As we're in NSG, I think that's much more likely.

[United Misotheist]

I also won't know for certain whether dropping ice in a bathtub to heat up the water will work. Doesn't mean I can't make reasonable assumptions.

It is better to do something than to do nothing. To do nothing is to say that what Nigeria is doing is acceptable. It sets a precedent that any African country can now start killing LGBT citizens and no one will do anything to stop it.

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

[Luveria]

Uhuh, it's amazingly no longer your fight the moment it involves LGBT rights.

Luveria, don't be unfair. Swedish Realm is at least consistent in not caring about anyone outside of his race, nationality, sex, and orientation.

I'm being entirely fair. Swedish Realm won't care about gay Swedes either. Or naturalized immigrant Swedes who came from Morocco or elsewhere. We all know his game.

[Luveria]

It is better to do something than to do nothing. To do nothing is to say that what Nigeria is doing is acceptable. It sets a precedent that any African country can now start killing LGBT citizens and no one will do anything to stop it.

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

Why is a totalitarian giving me a lecture on diplomatic solutions? Is this opposite day?

[The New Lowlands]

... By bombing a democratic nation, right.

Since when has rule by mob, be they oppressive or well-intentioned, meant they have a "get out of Human Rights Violations Free" card?

Democracy for the sake of democracy needs to stop being interpreted as some sacred virtue. AIDs is enough of a serious issue, even if you hate homosexuals, to want to see its spread curbed and the infected people treated.

It isn't. But by blasting away the institutions that keep order in the country, you're just going to be launching a red tide of private rather than state-sponsored violence against LGBT people- and this isn't even taking into account other forms of violence that will arise after the country is destabilised, the loss of life incurred in the intervention, et cetera.

[Swedish Realm]

Let the citizens and the Homosexual community handle it, it isn't our fight.

Uhuh, it's amazingly no longer your fight the moment it involves LGBT rights.

Why the hell would it be my fight?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

Why is a totalitarian giving me a lecture on diplomatic solutions? Is this opposite day?

The U.S. Public is weary of war though, so I do understand his point of view.

As a History major with an emphasis on Foreign Relations though I think it's too late to step back and be isolationists though.

[Risottia]

And what about the sanctions?

Tbh, they likely wouldn't have an effect unless Russia + China also follow through with them. I highly doubt they would too, there's a lot of foreign investment into Nigeria right now.

Hm, I wouldn't say so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2006N ... xports.PNG

Russia would be only too happy that a competitor on the oil market is blocked out.
The largest share of the Nigerian exports goes to the US, Brazil and the EU - all of them relatively progressive countries when it comes to LGBT rights. US is increasing its own production; Brazil is a net exporter iirc; and the EU can buy from other countries.
And with the Nigerian crude oil exports amounting to 84% of their export value...

Plus, a lot of the foreign direct investment in Nigeria is from money transfers from Nigerian expats.

Also, Nigeria is a recipient of foreign aid.


I'd say economic sanctions would have a rather huge impact.

[Swedish Realm]

Luveria, don't be unfair. Swedish Realm is at least consistent in not caring about anyone outside of his race, nationality, sex, and orientation.

I'm being entirely fair. Swedish Realm won't care about gay Swedes either. Or naturalized immigrant Swedes who came from Morocco or elsewhere. We all know his game.

I would care about homosexual swedes, because that is my fight.

[Luveria]

Why is a totalitarian giving me a lecture on diplomatic solutions? Is this opposite day?

The U.S. Public is weary of war though, so I do understand his point of view.

As a History major with an emphasis on Foreign Relations though I think it's too late to step back and be isolationists though.

You don't get it. Misotheist is a warmonger. He loves war. It's only when it's intervention to protect LGBT people he suddenly goes ultra-pacifistic and gives passionate speeches about the virtues of finding diplomatic solutions.

[The New Lowlands]

Meh, it's Nigeria. What do you expect? There's a long way to go before gays will be accepted there, you gotta change cultural attitudes and so on.

This thread will either end in a gay marriage debate, or a flood of bigots coming to the thread, praising Nigeria. Or both.

Or in a giant left-wing circlejerk with people saying how evil Nigeria and everyone who support it are. As we're in NSG, I think that's much more likely.

Luveria's a self-professed neocon arguing in favour of intervention, and I'm left-wing and arguing against, so hush.

[Lost heros]

It is better to do something than to do nothing. To do nothing is to say that what Nigeria is doing is acceptable. It sets a precedent that any African country can now start killing LGBT citizens and no one will do anything to stop it.

Let the citizens and the Homosexual community handle it, it isn't our fight.

Let the German citizens and the Jews handle the holocaust, it isn't our fight.

[Ostroeuropa]

It is better to do something than to do nothing. To do nothing is to say that what Nigeria is doing is acceptable. It sets a precedent that any African country can now start killing LGBT citizens and no one will do anything to stop it.

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

Well, get on those solutions then.
If you can get it done, then by all means.
The fact is, they don't care about diplomacy.
And i've seen your type before.

They rave about diplomacy being the answer, apply sanctions, it doesn't work, then you shrug and wander off.

[Olivaero]

It is better to do something than to do nothing. To do nothing is to say that what Nigeria is doing is acceptable. It sets a precedent that any African country can now start killing LGBT citizens and no one will do anything to stop it.

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

The world will never like you sorry. They will either ignore you if you do nothing or hate you for sanctioning/invading their country or like you for supporting their country. You don't get a pat on the back for every country you don't invade, just a lot of petty dictators getting emboldened by your lack of action.

[United Misotheist]

Thats wrong, completely wrong. Diplomatic solutions, not war. What a way to make the world like us than to bomb the crap out of defensless countries to make us look big and strong.

Why is a totalitarian giving me a lecture on diplomatic solutions? Is this opposite day?

I am a totalitarian on a national scale, not international one. I beleive a government has the right to use violence to suppress political and social movements that are perceived as dangerous.

[Blackledge]

Since when has rule by mob, be they oppressive or well-intentioned, meant they have a "get out of Human Rights Violations Free" card?

Democracy for the sake of democracy needs to stop being interpreted as some sacred virtue. AIDs is enough of a serious issue, even if you hate homosexuals, to want to see its spread curbed and the infected people treated.

It isn't. But by blasting away the institutions that keep order in the country, you're just going to be launching a red tide of private rather than state-sponsored violence against LGBT people- and this isn't even taking into account other forms of violence that will arise after the country is destabilised, the loss of life incurred in the intervention, et cetera.

Fair enough case you present.

Tbh my objection was the use of democracy as an argument. You are right, however, in the the dangerous likelihood of violence against LGBT (and even non-homosexual AIDs infectees?) people if a violent intervention occurs.

[Swedish Realm]

Let the citizens and the Homosexual community handle it, it isn't our fight.

Let the German citizens and the Jews handle the holocaust, it isn't our fight.

Horrible analogy.

[Luveria]

Uhuh, it's amazingly no longer your fight the moment it involves LGBT rights.

Why the hell would it be my fight?

Because your country is part of an organization dedicated to human rights. If you don't want it to be "your fight" then get Sweden to leave the UN. It's hypocritical and dishonest for a country to sign a paper proclaiming defending international human rights while wanting no part of it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Tbh, they likely wouldn't have an effect unless Russia + China also follow through with them. I highly doubt they would too, there's a lot of foreign investment into Nigeria right now.

Hm, I wouldn't say so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2006N ... xports.PNG

Russia would be only too happy that a competitor on the oil market is blocked out.
The largest share of the Nigerian exports goes to the US, Brazil and the EU - all of them relatively progressive countries when it comes to LGBT rights. US is increasing its own production; Brazil is a net exporter iirc; and the EU can buy from other countries.
And with the Nigerian crude oil exports amounting to 84% of their export value...

Plus, a lot of the foreign direct investment in Nigeria is from money transfers from Nigerian expats.

Also, Nigeria is a recipient of foreign aid.


I'd say economic sanctions would have a rather huge impact.

Fine. Great.
And if they don't work?

[Vitaphone Racing]

Tbh, they likely wouldn't have an effect unless Russia + China also follow through with them. I highly doubt they would too, there's a lot of foreign investment into Nigeria right now.

Here is an ulterior benefit to interventionism.
We'd end up breaking a lot of Russia and Chinas toys.

Awww sorry guys, looks like investing in backward states with a poor civil rights record and helping to prop up their regime isn't a good investment after all ;(

Sticking it to Russia and China in flamboyant fashion isn't a benefit, unless you want another cold war.

Here is an ulterior benefit to interventionism.
We'd end up breaking a lot of Russia and Chinas toys.

Awww sorry guys, looks like investing in backward states with a poor civil rights record and helping to prop up their regime isn't a good investment after all ;(

All the more reason to use armed intervention.

How has the fact that this is a stupid idea not sunk in yet? Let me put in plain terms, it will be five times more expensive than Iraq, there will be five times as many casualties as Iraq, there will as usual be an ever growing stream of mujaheddin to take up arms and pro-long the conflict, and most importantly, it won't accomplish anything aside from turning a lot of nations against the US. The US and the rest of the western world has tolerated crap like this for literal decades, Nigeria is probably the 30th nation in Africa to take this stance not to mention the more extreme parts of the middle east. Do they get an invasion too?

[Swedish Realm]

Why the hell would it be my fight?

Because your country is part of an organization dedicated to human rights. If you don't want it to be "your fight" then get Sweden to leave the UN. It's hypocritical and dishonest for a country to sign a paper proclaiming defending international human rights while wanting no part of it.

But it's foolish to send Swedish men and women to a country to defend 2 percent of the population.

[Ifreann]

Meh, it's Nigeria. What do you expect? There's a long way to go before gays will be accepted there, you gotta change cultural attitudes and so on.

This thread will either end in a gay marriage debate, or a flood of bigots coming to the thread, praising Nigeria. Or both.

Or in a giant left-wing circlejerk with people saying how evil Nigeria and everyone who support it are. As we're in NSG, I think that's much more likely.

I'm amused that you consider basic respect for the humanity of gay people to be a left-wing position. Not surprised. Just amused.

[Luveria]

Why is a totalitarian giving me a lecture on diplomatic solutions? Is this opposite day?

I am a totalitarian on a national scale, not international one. I beleive a government has the right to use violence to suppress political and social movements that are perceived as dangerous.

Like LGBT rights movements?

[Risottia]

I am a totalitarian on a national scale, not international one. I beleive a government has the right to use violence to suppress political and social movements that are perceived as dangerous.

I guess you'd be fine with yourself ending someday on the wrong end of a Blackshirt's (or equivalent) baton.