Gays, Putin, and Skiing! Olympics Megathread: THE POLITICS

[Shofercia]

Be fucking honest. You want to critique the anti-Gay Rights Law - go for it. That's recent. But if you blame problems like terrorism on Putin, you're just laughable.

Interestingly, you're pretty much the only one who's brought up terrorism in this thread.

Oh really?

It really is pretty embarassing.

Hopefully Russia doesn't host an Olympic game for a long time.

They were very unprepared. Hotels are uncomplete, they went way over budget, there's a large threat of a terrorist attack etc.

From another thread "Is Russia ready for Sochi" one of yumyumsuppertime's linked articles, his very first "counterpoint"

Intended to showcase the power of Vladimir Putin’s Russia, they may instead highlight its problems: organized crime, state corruption, and the terrorist threat within its borders...

But if you're really insistent on it being this thread:

Why not mention the terrorism in the name of the thread?

I guess doing a thread search for "terror, terrorist, and terrorism" is apparently too complex.

Saying "boohoo a large country with over a hundred million people, spanning a good chunk of the planet, and having recently emerged from a troubled time period of semi-anarchy is having problems with corruption and authoritarianism" - well no shit Sherlock.

That's not really the issue here, though. The issue is that hosting the Olympics is an invitation for that corruption to descend and take advantage of the money that pours in.

And it's also an invitation for people to come in and see that corruption while it's busy at the Olympic trough, which makes this sort of complaining about 'Russophobia' or the like a bit disingenuous. If your country has problems with entrenched corruption, why invite the world to come and see it in action? One would think that Russia's priority should be dealing with that first, if for no other reason than to spare itself having to deal with things like the 8 billion dollar road in Sochi.

Since I've heard this crap over and over again, why don't I actually address the only fact that in post, i.e. the "8 billion dollar road". Oh wait, I have!

Sochi spent $51 billion on the Olympics. Since this is the most, Russophobes usually tout this number as "hurr durr Rusha iz corruptz, lolzorz!" What they don't realize is that Sochi's infrastructure had to be rebuilt from the ground up: http://darussophile.com/2014/01/shreddi ... -good-way/

For instance, it'd be pointless comparing Sochi to Vancouver, since Vancouver had most of the infrastructure in place. Likewise, Russia could've held the Olympics in Leningrad/St. Petersburg, and the cost would be reduced in half, perhaps to even a third or fourth of that sum. But the Games should be in Sochi, for several reasons:

1. Provides jobs for a region that's only been stable for a couple of years
2. Develops sports infrastructure in that region, i.e. Krasnodar Krai has no hockey team, whereas Sakha Republic does.
3. Provides a Russian ski resort, so that wealthy Russians stop spending money abroad
4. Promotes quite a bit of cultural interaction between Russians and Caucasians, thus providing Russia with Unity

And so on...

On the actual Olympics, only $7 billion was spent, out of which only $3 billion was spent by the Government.

The first and foremost attack revolved around the supposed corruption surrounding the Sochi Olympics. In 2010, the Russian magazine Esquire estimated that 48km of roads around Sochi consumed a cool $8 billion of taxpayer money, a sum that implied the asphalt might as well have been made of elite beluga caviar. Julia Ioffe cheerily transmitted these sophomoric calculations to the Anglosphere. The only problem with these actuarial wisecracks? Said road also included a railway, 50 bridges, and 27km worth of tunnels over mountainous terrain… which presumably made it something more than just a road. What was intended as a metaphor for Sochi corruption turned out to be, ironically, a metaphor for unfounded attacks against it...The lion’s share of the $50 billion investment in Sochi – some 80% of it or so – consists of infrastructure projects to make Sochi into a world-class ski resort that will provide employment in the restive North Caucasus, kickstart the development of a Russian snowsports culture, and draw at least some of the more patriotic elites away from Courcheval.

Courcheval is a Russian symbol of elites wasting too much money abroad, and it's also a World class ski resort.

Consequent criticisms become increasingly deranged and unhinged from reality, much like the murderous HAL supercomputer fading away into childish gibberishness after it gets turned off. Thousands of people got evicted, their land stolen from them… except that the average compensation per person was $100,000. Sochi is apparently built on the bones of Circassians… well, if it’s a graveyard, I wonder what that makes the North American continent - a death world? The assertion that Sochi is an ”unsuitable subtropical resort” with no snow… an assessment that would surely surprise the denizens of California’s Bay Area, who go skiing in Tahoe up until late April, and where average February temperatures are significantly higher than around Sochi.

Let's look at your article, which is typical amongst those bullshitting, oh, I'm sorry, I should say, criticizing, Russia. I'll skip his "phenomenal and superb, and amazing" introductory paragraph, pointing out that an expensive resort could be a heap of trouble with all of the wit that Owen Gibson could muster, and get right down to the facts:

And that's before you get to more prosaic concerns over whether there is going to be enough snow in a resort where temperatures reach 30C in the summer and remain a relatively mild 10C even in February.

Not entirely sure if Guardian correspondents have access to Google, but looking at sample weather data, I'm seeing temperatures between 8 and -5, which would only average out to 10 in lala land. Also known as journalism for some. Of course knowing that snow wasn't going to be an issue is as easy as looking up the previous events held in Roza Khutor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Khuto ... d_Cup_2012

This would of course require someone to enter "Roza Khutor" into Google, and click on a few links, a task that's apparently too daunting for Mr. Gibson. Of course he continues:

The opposition figures Leonid Martynyuk and Boris Nemtsov claimed in a May report that up to $30bn of the budget had gone missing in "kickbacks and embezzlement" to close associates of Putin, claiming the Games had turned into a "monstrous scam".

It's a tad disingenuous of Mt. Gibson to not point out that Nemtsov is butthurt at Putin. After all, dear old Boris had such a nice spot under Yeltsin. And then Putin came along, and Yeltsinites nike Nemtsov weren't in demand any longer. Bawww! Of course the largest factual claim for corruption was a third:

A Swiss member of the International Olympic Committee has publicly conceded an embarrassing reality that most Russians have long known about: the looming Sochi Olympics have been a virtual potlatch of corruption, with about a third of the $55 billion in mostly-state expenditures siphoned off in bribes and kickbacks by greedy officials.

In order to find this article, it was necessary to enter "Sochi, IOC, Corruption" into Google, again, a task too daunting for Mr. Gibson. But $30 billion is a third of $55 billion? Damn, now I'm beginning to understand why policies of bold reformers, like Nemtsov, caused the collapse of the Russian stock market in 1998. Also, it was actually $51 billion, not $55 billion, but hey, what's $4 billion amongst friends? Unless it's Russia, in that case we should all yell HURR DURR CORRUPTION!!!

I've already addressed the road.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International has already voiced concerns over Putin's recent crackdown on freedom of expression, best exemplified by the Pussy Riot case.

Pussy Riot wasn't about "freedom of expression". Doing the equivalent of walking into a Japanese meditation garden, and blasting loud music isn't freedom of expression. It's being a giant dick to your fellow human beings. Or a riotous pussy. Perhaps I should blast loud music outside of Mr. Gibson's home on random nights, and go around telling others how it's freedom of speech. There's a difference. Did they deserve to go to jail? Certainly not. But let's not pretend that Pussy Riot was arrested over merely speaking their minds.

By the time the Olympic flame reaches Sochi on 7 February next year for the opening day of the Games, along with 5,500 athletes from 80 countries

Actually for Winter Olympics, it's about 2,500-3,000 athletes. Not 5,500. But expecting even rudimentary fact checking from Mr. Gibson is apparently too much. I can go on if you'd like.

Is there also valid criticism of Russia in Owen Gibson's article? Certainly. But when you mix bullshit and fact, you're doing journalism a disservice, and I hope that's something that we can all agree on.

[Shofercia]

So stop pretending like authoritarianism and corruption in Russia is something new.

When have I ever made such a claim? Anyone who knows at least the basics of Russian history knows of Russia's long history of authoritarianism and corruption.

Stop pretending like most people's lives haven't improved under Putin's Administration.

I have never disputed this, much like I've never disputed the fact that, for instance, Chavez cult of personality improved the lives of impoverished Venezuelans.

Stop pretending that a good chunk of the current "critics", of the Anders Aslund variety, cared much about Russia's Human Rights when the country was weak.

When have I ever pretended such a thing?

Be fucking honest.

I'm not so shameless I'd be knowingly dishonest.

You want to critique the anti-Gay Rights Law - go for it.

Thanks... not that I needed your approval.

That's recent.

Politically? Yes.
Culturally? Clearly not.

But if you blame problems like terrorism on Putin, you're just laughable. Saying "boohoo a large country with over a hundred million people, spanning a good chunk of the planet, and having recently emerged from a troubled time period of semi-anarchy is having problems with corruption and authoritarianism" - well no shit Sherlock.

Fine.

I'm not referring to you specifically. The you there was meant as a general reference. You, Liri, generally do a good job when it comes to critiquing Russia. You don't go around bashing Russia because you can never win an argument IRL with a fellow peer, and have massive mommy issues, and confidence issues, which is why you don't need to believe that condescension is the way to go, and then bitch when you're ignored like there's no tomorrow. The you was a general reference to those who feel insecure and have to bash Russia to make up for their ineptitude in their professional lives. It wasn't a personal reference to you. Just wanted to clarify that.

That was also a reference to the NYT, (which I've initially quoted in the previous post,) some parts of the OSCE, etc. Those types. The idiots who suddenly discovered that Russia had corruption when Putin didn't let Khodorkovsky truck a fuck ton of natural resources out of Russia, while keeping Russia weak. Those types. Your criticism of Russia picked up sharply after the anti-Gay Rights Law passed. I got no issues with that. The most "atrocious" post you made here, was limiting figure skating to gay/straight. Figure skating's awesome, and it all depends on your training partner. Anyways, with that said, there are two quotes that I want to respond to:

First:

You want to critique the anti-Gay Rights Law - go for it.

Thanks... not that I needed your approval.

I was offering my encouragement, but if you don't want it, I can withdraw it

Second:

That's recent.

Politically? Yes.
Culturally? Clearly not.

Politically - yeah, and that should be discouraged. No argument there from me. Culturally - in the long history of Russia, it's fairly recent, starting with Stalinism. The two main anti-gay factors are Stalin's brainwashing the people with statements like "if X is gay, then X is pedophile", and the 1990s association of Gays with decadence, since the 1990s was an extremely corrupt and decadent period in Russian History. Speaking of Russian Culture, where are gays mentioned? In America's Culture, we have numerous mentions of blacks being inferior, i.e. Birth of a Nation. In Russian Culture, which famous/infamous movies, books, etc, have anti-gay stuff in them? If you want to genuinely promote Gay Rights in Russia, you have to understand that primarily it's those two factors that are driving anti-Gayness amongst the population. Are there other factors? Sure, but those are the dynamic duo.

[Liriena]

I will grant Russia this: they really do dominate the gayest sport on the face of the Earth... figure skating.

Figure skating is about as gay as slow dancing. Have you ever skated on ice with a partner of the opposite gender? Do you know how amazingly passionate that is? Figure skating makes for awesome dating

I live in a country with temperate, often warm climate, where machismo still runs strong, so... no, I've never skated on ice.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Look through this thread, and count the number of posts highlighting the lack of Coca Cola or hotel doors breaking.

Then count the number of posts where people are complaining about serious human rights abuses including unreasonable restrictions on freedom of expression and the repression of minorities.

When you've done that, and can show that the latter doesn't eclipse the former, you can come back and talk about unwarranted Russia bashing.

Uh, at no point was I simply referring to NSG. This place is bizarro-/pol/. Why should I examine the posts ITT to note the presence of Russia bashing?

Instead, look at the Twittersphere. Lately it has been obscure western journalists uploading fake or old images of supposedly crappy hotels just to get their five minutes of fame. And when human rights issues are mentioned, it is overwhelmingly about gay rights, hardly any mention of the other, more pressing issues in Russia. (yeah I know the jailing of dissidents was a big story not long ago, but that seems to have died out).

I really don't understand the human mentality.

Actually being happy about others' misery and taking pride in showing off how much better you have it is something I'll never understand. They don't know how it feels to see the incompetency and bureaucracy slowly killing a troubled country.

Stating that the journalists are uploading and spreading false images is an incredibly serious charge. Where is your evidence of this? Considering the number of people doing this, you're essentially saying that there is a conspiracy between representatives of several different competing news organizations to spread libelous information regarding the accommodations.

Now, don't get me wrong: there are false pictures being passed around online. However, as far as I am aware, none of them have come from professional journalists at the games, and if they were, that would be a fireable offense, as such actions would call the integrity of the entire news organization into question.

So, again, where is your evidence?

[Union Of Canadorian Socialists Republic]

I will grant Russia this: they really do dominate the gayest sport on the face of the Earth... figure skating.

Figure skating is about as gay as slow dancing. Have you ever skated on ice with a partner of the opposite gender? Do you know how amazingly passionate that is? Figure skating makes for awesome dating

And if the date goes bad, ice hockey.

[Serrland]

I will grant Russia this: they really do dominate the gayest sport on the face of the Earth... figure skating.

Figure skating is about as gay as slow dancing. Have you ever skated on ice with a partner of the opposite gender? Do you know how amazingly passionate that is? Figure skating makes for awesome dating

An ice rink or a nice frozen pond is indeed a really fun date location. Great call on that one!

[Gallup]

I don't get why people say "homophobia". People aren't scared, or have a phobia, of gays.

Actually, they kinda are. I mean, can you really claim there is no element of fear in statements such as "homosexuality will cause the collapse of our civilization"?

Nobody says that.

[Respawn]

Having brown and yellow water flow from faucets, if it is flowing at all is not a "retarded issue." Hotel rooms without door handles is a pretty major thing too. Communication devices hacked within minutes, also important.
You fail.

Interesting, because I could say the same about you. Oh well. It really does help to check your sources from time to time. You should try it.

Your defense is as pathetic as the hotel rooms you are defending.

It's pathetic to defend such blatantly fake images, I know.

[Respawn]

Stating that the journalists are uploading and spreading false images is an incredibly serious charge. Where is your evidence of this? Considering the number of people doing this, you're essentially saying that there is a conspiracy between representatives of several different competing news organizations to spread libelous information regarding the accommodations.

Now, don't get me wrong: there are false pictures being passed around online. However, as far as I am aware, none of them have come from professional journalists at the games, and if they were, that would be a fireable offense, as such actions would call the integrity of the entire news organization into question.

So, again, where is your evidence?

Looking back, I guess I did use the term 'journalists' a bit too liberally. My mistake.

Then again, although the original images may have not necessarily been uploaded by actual journalists, they were reposted and reported on plenty of credible news outlets. But I guess that was just a failure on their part to check the images' reliability rather than some organised attack on Sochi.

But that's not to say the 'real' images of crapy hotel rooms weren't cherry-picked as fuck.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Stating that the journalists are uploading and spreading false images is an incredibly serious charge. Where is your evidence of this? Considering the number of people doing this, you're essentially saying that there is a conspiracy between representatives of several different competing news organizations to spread libelous information regarding the accommodations.

Now, don't get me wrong: there are false pictures being passed around online. However, as far as I am aware, none of them have come from professional journalists at the games, and if they were, that would be a fireable offense, as such actions would call the integrity of the entire news organization into question.

So, again, where is your evidence?

Looking back, I guess I did use the term 'journalists' a bit too liberally. My mistake.

Then again, although the original images may have not necessarily been uploaded by actual journalists, they were reposted and reported on plenty of credible news outlets. But I guess that was just a failure on their part to check the images' reliability rather than some organised attack on Sochi.

But that's not to say the 'real' images of crapy hotel rooms weren't cherry-picked as fuck.

The water issue was not "cherry picked". It was a real problem. The same with the lack of accommodations, and unfinished hotels. I mean, how do you pour billions of dollars into an area for seven years and still not have clean water, finished walls, doors that actually work, a lack of live wires in showers, and covers on manholes? It's shoddy, it's amateur, it reeks of corruption, and it doesn't reflect the idea of a nation ready to hold a major international event.

[Respawn]

The water issue was not "cherry picked". It was a real problem. The same with the lack of accommodations, and unfinished hotels. I mean, how do you pour billions of dollars into an area for seven years and still not have clean water, finished walls, doors that actually work, a lack of live wires in showers, and covers on manholes? It's shoddy, it's amateur, it reeks of corruption, and it doesn't reflect the idea of a nation ready to hold a major international event.

Yes, but as I have already pointed out, many of the images showing yellow water flowing from taps and the double toilets were proven fakes. Let's also not forget that certain athletes have actually engaged in vandalism.

Granted, maybe the 50 billion dollars was not money well spent But to be fair, prior to the games, Sochi was a fairly insignificant village and most of the money went into construction as it had to be built from scratch. They want to make it a tourist hub after the olympics. Vancouver, London etc were already fully developed cities. Not the same for Sochi.

Also, a lot of the cost was in security and logistics. Hauling tonnes and tonnes of building materials out into the middle of nowhere in the terrorist-infested Caucasus (and preventing said building materials from being blown up or stolen) isn't cheap.

[Regnum Dominae]

Let's also not forget that certain athletes have actually engaged in vandalism.

Okay, seriously... he was locked in and had no phone to call for help... he was getting out of a locked bathroom. That's not "vandalism". At all.

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

Let's also not forget that certain athletes have actually engaged in vandalism.

Okay, seriously... he was locked in and had no phone to call for help... he was getting out of a locked bathroom. That's not "vandalism". At all.

That is literally the last story I would've used to support a case of player vandalism.

[Cosmopoles]

Okay, seriously... he was locked in and had no phone to call for help... he was getting out of a locked bathroom. That's not "vandalism". At all.

A likely story. The sight of such a finely crafted door sent him into a fit of jealous rage causing him to smash it to pieces Hulk-style with part of his bobsled.

[Respawn]

Let's also not forget that certain athletes have actually engaged in vandalism.

Okay, seriously... he was locked in and had no phone to call for help... he was getting out of a locked bathroom. That's not "vandalism". At all.

Yes it is.

Why did he have to make such a huge hole? There's no need to make a hole that big, as you don't need to crawl through it. Why didn't he just make a small enough hole that would allow him to reach through and unlock the door?

[Geilinor]

Actually, they kinda are. I mean, can you really claim there is no element of fear in statements such as "homosexuality will cause the collapse of our civilization"?

Nobody says that.

Yes, people do. Are you living under a rock? https://www.google.com/search?q=homosexuality+will+cause+the+decline+of+civilization&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb

[The Carlisle]

The water issue was not "cherry picked". It was a real problem. The same with the lack of accommodations, and unfinished hotels. I mean, how do you pour billions of dollars into an area for seven years and still not have clean water, finished walls, doors that actually work, a lack of live wires in showers, and covers on manholes? It's shoddy, it's amateur, it reeks of corruption, and it doesn't reflect the idea of a nation ready to hold a major international event.

Yes, but as I have already pointed out, many of the images showing yellow water flowing from taps and the double toilets were proven fakes. Let's also not forget that certain athletes have actually engaged in vandalism.

Granted, maybe the 50 billion dollars was not money well spent But to be fair, prior to the games, Sochi was a fairly insignificant village and most of the money went into construction as it had to be built from scratch. They want to make it a tourist hub after the olympics. Vancouver, London etc were already fully developed cities. Not the same for Sochi.

Also, a lot of the cost was in security and logistics. Hauling tonnes and tonnes of building materials out into the middle of nowhere in the terrorist-infested Caucasus (and preventing said building materials from being blown up or stolen) isn't cheap.

Insignificant village? It was a resort town before the Olympics. Its the (unofficial) summer capital of Russia. Stalin loved the place.

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

Okay, seriously... he was locked in and had no phone to call for help... he was getting out of a locked bathroom. That's not "vandalism". At all.

Yes it is.

Why did he have to make such a huge hole? There's no need to make a hole that big, as you don't need to crawl through it. Why didn't he just make a small enough hole that would allow him to reach through and unlock the door?

Because people don't think of that kind of shit when they're FUCKING TRAPPED.

It's not "o let me break through the point of least structural integrity and make a surgical karate chop to the door handle", it's just "let me get the fuck out of here".

Its not like he hated the hotel owner and wanted to go out of his way to fuck shit up, or he could've done more than that to the whole room, he was doing what most normal people would do in a case like that.

[Gallup]

Let's also not forget that certain athletes have actually engaged in vandalism.

Okay, seriously... he was locked in and had no phone to call for help... he was getting out of a locked bathroom. That's not "vandalism". At all.

According to Respawn, he should've stayed in and died.

[Respawn]

Insignificant village? It was a resort town before the Olympics. Its the (unofficial) summer capital of Russia. Stalin loved the place.

Christ, why do people go all anal on this site over wording? It was hyperbowl. I get you are not all mind readers here, though.

Anyway, what I meant is that Sochi only has a population of around 300,000 and did not have most of the needed infrastructure for the games. Compare that to Vancouver, London, Sydney etc. That surely explains a great deal of the cost.

[Srboslavija]

Out of everyone there, it's the big American who needs to hulk smash a hollow door because he's "locked in", lol.

[Cosmopoles]

Yes it is.

Why did he have to make such a huge hole? There's no need to make a hole that big, as you don't need to crawl through it. Why didn't he just make a small enough hole that would allow him to reach through and unlock the door?

Reach through for what, the lock on the outside of the door? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of a door lock if there's one on both sides?

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

Insignificant village? It was a resort town before the Olympics. Its the (unofficial) summer capital of Russia. Stalin loved the place.

Christ, why do people go all anal on this site over wording? It was hyperbowl. I get you are not all mind readers here, though.

Anyway, what I meant is that Sochi only has a population of around 300,000 and did not have most of the needed infrastructure for the games. Compare that to Vancouver, London, Sydney etc. That surely explains a great deal of the cost.

*hyperbole

[The Carlisle]

Christ, why do people go all anal on this site over wording? It was hyperbowl. I get you are not all mind readers here, though.

Anyway, what I meant is that Sochi only has a population of around 300,000 and did not have most of the needed infrastructure for the games. Compare that to Vancouver, London, Sydney etc. That surely explains a great deal of the cost.

*hyperbole

Unless its Brian Regan.

[Gallup]

*hyperbole

Unless its Brian Regan.

I love Brian Regan!

"I Walked On The Moon" was my favorite.