Gays, Putin, and Skiing! Olympics Megathread: THE POLITICS

[Lyttenburgh]

russia had non-traditional sexual relationships legalization for some twenty years just fyi

and for some years under Lenin

and you know what happened?

fucking nothing no one cared

what we're having now is active regress mostly forced by the government continuously feeding the populace with paleoconservative rhetorics, "family values" and tacitly fueling anti-gay sentiments none of which were THAT big of a thing even like three years ago

the first step would be removing direct government suppression of lgbt expression and pulling constant anti-gay propaganda from tv screens and trying it all from a blank slate as russians once again become more or less apathetic to homosexuality

That, good sir, is the so-called “bullcrap” you are saying here. Please, give a reliable proof, that “Russia had non-traditional sexual relationships legalization for some twenty years”. Also, some examples of “anti-gay propaganda”. Is Ivan Dulin from “Nasha Russia” a government’s insidious attempt to turn it’s citizens against all that’s good, free and gay?

You know when they'll be ready? Never.

Like every other time progress and human rights recognition has ever happened.

You can't just "wait out" injustice and bullshit, you have to fight it for years and decades on end to get results, and it has to fucking start somewhere.

If fucking America can let goddamn slaves free and survive then I'm sure Russia can let some gays live without fucking imploding.

Comparing Russian gays to [insert racial/ethnic minority] is not only incorrect – it’s pretty much lame. And as for “civil right’s campaigning”, or equivalents of “marches on Washington”… Again, blindly applying Western experience on the Russian soil is just counter-productive. Tell me, do you know of any “civil rights” movement in the entire more than millennium-long history of Russia that actually “won”? Take your time, no hurry here.

IMHO, I’m really skeptical about all this “rights” activism, in the sense that it was only due to the rallies and some forms of protests, that their case “won”. Maybe, in some respect, it’s true for the West – but definitely not for Russia.

To be successful such movement must be numerous, have a solid, powerful base, a significant portion of citizens sympathetic to it’s cause and (last, but not least) a political power of some sort to turn their demands into a reality. Gay activism in Russia lacks all of this.

While it's interesting to see you call Putin and the Russian government liars (which they are, to be sure, but I thought that argument would be made by someone else), the fact is that we should never wait until the majority is ready to accept that a minority group graciously is granted basic human rights. Basic human rights aren't subject to popularity contests, and a state which has promised both itself (through its constitution) and the international community (through international treaties and agreements) to uphold these basic human rights for everyone residing on their territory, are obligated to keep its word and do what it can to safeguard and protect these rights.

Rights? “Words, words, words”. Basic human rights and all that jazz is just a recent invention. It’s just a thoroughly enforced privileges, that could (and often times are) taken away if there is a need for that. Some letters written on a piece of paper, and totally worthless if not backed by something more substantial, as proven by history and even modern entertainment media.

All this rights are “internationally accepted” because the West shove them down the throats of everyone using it’s power to do it. When It cannot do that, well – that’s a bummer! Let’s topple some governments and bomb their countries into Democracy. Should arise some another powerful entity with it’s own view what is “rights”, that could enforce it’s will globally – and basic rights of old would become neither “universal”, nor “basic”.

So if Russia is not ready, it's the duty of the Russian government to step up its game and change things in order to make Russia move into modern times and become ready. Perhaps it will be costly, but as Liriena said, you can't be cheap when it comes to human rights.

So basically, Govlen suggests here that a minority should bully a government into unconditional surrender, and then the government should crush all dissent and enforce this “acceptance of tolerance”... how? By “camps of tolerance”? Political correct thought police? Gay propaganda? So, to become more democratic, in you opinion, Russia’s powers that be must become even more undemocratic, totally ignoring the opinion of the people, because of “the duty”! Right. What’s next? 2+2=5, White is Black, right is left, minority trumps majority.

Russia's acceptance of her own LGBT community will occur naturally and at their own pace. Like every other country who has gone through that process so far. Hijacking the Winter Olympics was repugnant and unnecessary, but that already-established bandwagon was too irresistible, even for the progressive (US) LGBT community.

^This. But it’s much more fun to satisfy your own schadenfreude and bash Russia (suspicially denying that you are not Russophobic at all, no-no) then 1) Try to learn more and understand the country in question. 2) Suggest something working, ‘sides endless critique of Russia. Criticizing for it’s own sake is pointless. “All can spot bugs, not everyone ready to fix glitches”. Every time I ask NS-board gay activists&Co “What is your plan?”, they either ignore it and continue Russia hating ad nauseam, or prove, by their answers, that they don’t have a firm grasp on the reality.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

In addition to the horrific abuses regarding human rights that have cast a pall over the Olympics this year, we have the accusation that this seems to be an astoundingly corrupt Olympics, even by the remarkably low standards set in Salt Lake City.

Whatever happens on the ice and snow of Sochi in the next couple of weeks, one thing is certain: this Winter Olympics is the greatest financial boondoggle in the history of the Games. Back in 2007, Vladimir Putin said that Russia would spend twelve billion dollars on the Games. The actual amount is more than fifty billion. (By comparison, Vancouver’s Games, in 2010, cost seven billion dollars.) Exhaustive investigations by the opposition figures Boris Nemtsov, Leonid Martynyuk, and Alexei Navalny reveal dubious cost overruns and outright embezzlement. And all this lavish spending (largely paid for by Russian taxpayers) has been, as Nemtsov and Martynyuk write, “controlled largely by businesspeople and companies close to Putin.”

Sochi is emblematic of Russia’s economy: conflicts of interest and cronyism are endemic. But the link between corruption and construction is a problem across the globe. Transparency International has long cited the construction industry as the world’s most corrupt, pointing to the prevalence of bribery, bid rigging, and bill padding. And, while the sheer scale of graft in Sochi is unusual, the practice of politicians using construction contracts to line their pockets and dole out favors isn’t. In the past year alone, Quebec learned about systematic kickbacks and Mob influ­ence in the awarding of city construction contracts. In Turkey, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has become embroiled in a vast scandal involving friendly construction tycoons who were given cheap loans and no-bid contracts. And a recent report from the accounting firm Grant Thornton estimated that, by 2025, the cost of fraud in the industry worldwide will have reached $1.5 trillion.

What makes construction so prone to shady dealings? One reason is simply that governments are such huge players in the industry. Not only are they the biggest spenders on infrastructure; even private projects require government approvals, permits, worksite inspections, and the like. The more rules you have, and the more people enforcing them, the more opportunities there are for corruption. And, in many countries, the process of awarding contracts and permits is opaque. As Erik Lioy, a forensic accountant and fraud expert at Grant Thornton, told me, “When it’s not clear how projects get approved, people assume the worst, and that provides incentives to do a bribe or kickback.”

On big government projects, additional factors kick in. Such projects are rare, and construction work is erratic, so politicians with contracts to award have immense leverage. For contractors, bribery will always be attractive, because the cost of a bribe is dwarfed by the value of a contract—an effect known to economists as the Tullock paradox. And, as a study by Neill Stansbury, the co-founder of the Global Infrastructure Anti-Corruption Centre, put it, when a project is really big “it is easier to hide large bribes.” Then, too, Lioy explains, “most big projects involve building something unique, or at least something that’s never been built in that place before, and that makes it harder to estimate if costs are reasonable.” Corruption is obvious only when costs are completely absurd—which Nemtsov and Martynyuk have shown is the case with Sochi’s ice arenas and ski jumps.

And, of course, there are the well-documented issues with the accommodations.

All in all, I'd say that this is falling a bit short so far in terms of proving that Russia is a nation ready to host an Olympics in the 21st century.

[Cosmopoles]

Too bad you can't go back to Jolt and check out the posts that were made on the human rights situation in China in connection with the Olympic games back in 2008...

I seem to recall that direct comparisons were frequently made with the 1936 Berlin Olympics, both on here and in the media in general. I guess comparing China to Nazi Germany wasn't sufficient criticism.

[Respawn]

The Olympics are supposed to be a break from the politics. Its a time to share dreams, not bitch and moan about policies and hotels.

This is a misunderstanding. The Olympic games has always been connected with politics.

I do like the quote,
"The Olympic Games and politics are inseparable. When someone claims that sport and politics do not mix, they have political motives for saying so. And they say it in order to achieve political gains."

Well I concede on that point. But just because politicising the olympics has always been done, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

I just find it very tasteless and embarrassing to mock the host. Especially over such retarded issues like not having any Coca Cola available and hotel doors breaking easily.

I am bored of Russia bashing in general, using every opportunity you can to brag about how great and superior the west is to the third world Slavs. I don't mind a bit of friendly banter, but you have to know when and how to do it.

And yes, I'm getting paid 10 rubles for every time I shill for Russia on NSG.

[Gravlen]

This is a misunderstanding. The Olympic games has always been connected with politics.

I do like the quote,
"The Olympic Games and politics are inseparable. When someone claims that sport and politics do not mix, they have political motives for saying so. And they say it in order to achieve political gains."

Well I concede on that point. But just because politicising the olympics has always been done, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

I just find it very tasteless and embarrassing to mock the host. Especially over such retarded issues like not having any Coca Cola available and hotel doors breaking easily.

I am bored of Russia bashing in general, using every opportunity you can to brag about how great and superior the west is to the third world Slavs. I don't mind a bit of friendly banter, but you have to know when and how to do it.

And yes, I'm getting paid 10 rubles for every time I shill for Russia on NSG.

Look through this thread, and count the number of posts highlighting the lack of Coca Cola or hotel doors breaking.

Then count the number of posts where people are complaining about serious human rights abuses including unreasonable restrictions on freedom of expression and the repression of minorities.

When you've done that, and can show that the latter doesn't eclipse the former, you can come back and talk about unwarranted Russia bashing.

[Urmanian]

That, good sir, is the so-called “bullcrap” you are saying here. Please, give a reliable proof, that “Russia had non-traditional sexual relationships legalization for some twenty years”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Russia

"On 27 May 1993, homosexual acts between consenting males were legalised."

Also, some examples of “anti-gay propaganda”.

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/215116

Tell me, do you know of any “civil rights” movement in the entire more than millennium-long history of Russia that actually “won”? Take your time, no hurry here.

you mean the civil rights movements that have mostly transpired in the second half of the 20th century while russia was an isolated communist dictatorship right

[Gravlen]

russia had non-traditional sexual relationships legalization for some twenty years just fyi

and for some years under Lenin

and you know what happened?

fucking nothing no one cared

what we're having now is active regress mostly forced by the government continuously feeding the populace with paleoconservative rhetorics, "family values" and tacitly fueling anti-gay sentiments none of which were THAT big of a thing even like three years ago

the first step would be removing direct government suppression of lgbt expression and pulling constant anti-gay propaganda from tv screens and trying it all from a blank slate as russians once again become more or less apathetic to homosexuality

That, good sir, is the so-called “bullcrap” you are saying here. Please, give a reliable proof, that “Russia had non-traditional sexual relationships legalization for some twenty years”. Also, some examples of “anti-gay propaganda”. Is Ivan Dulin from “Nasha Russia” a government’s insidious attempt to turn it’s citizens against all that’s good, free and gay?

You know when they'll be ready? Never.

Like every other time progress and human rights recognition has ever happened.

You can't just "wait out" injustice and bullshit, you have to fight it for years and decades on end to get results, and it has to fucking start somewhere.

If fucking America can let goddamn slaves free and survive then I'm sure Russia can let some gays live without fucking imploding.

Comparing Russian gays to [insert racial/ethnic minority] is not only incorrect – it’s pretty much lame. And as for “civil right’s campaigning”, or equivalents of “marches on Washington”… Again, blindly applying Western experience on the Russian soil is just counter-productive. Tell me, do you know of any “civil rights” movement in the entire more than millennium-long history of Russia that actually “won”? Take your time, no hurry here.

IMHO, I’m really skeptical about all this “rights” activism, in the sense that it was only due to the rallies and some forms of protests, that their case “won”. Maybe, in some respect, it’s true for the West – but definitely not for Russia.

To be successful such movement must be numerous, have a solid, powerful base, a significant portion of citizens sympathetic to it’s cause and (last, but not least) a political power of some sort to turn their demands into a reality. Gay activism in Russia lacks all of this.

None of which, of course, justifies the current regression and erosion of civil rights.

While it's interesting to see you call Putin and the Russian government liars (which they are, to be sure, but I thought that argument would be made by someone else), the fact is that we should never wait until the majority is ready to accept that a minority group graciously is granted basic human rights. Basic human rights aren't subject to popularity contests, and a state which has promised both itself (through its constitution) and the international community (through international treaties and agreements) to uphold these basic human rights for everyone residing on their territory, are obligated to keep its word and do what it can to safeguard and protect these rights.

Rights? “Words, words, words”. Basic human rights and all that jazz is just a recent invention. It’s just a thoroughly enforced privileges, that could (and often times are) taken away if there is a need for that. Some letters written on a piece of paper, and totally worthless if not backed by something more substantial, as proven by history and even modern entertainment media.

Your piece of fiction doesn't prove anything. But if your claim is that Russia has a corrupt government and lacks the repsect for rule of law...

I'm left confused, are you trying to defend Russia here, or what?

All this rights are “internationally accepted” because the West shove them down the throats of everyone using it’s power to do it.

Wait, are you now claiming that Putin is weak or a puppet of the West? And that the government and the courts are incompetent?

When It cannot do that, well – that’s a bummer! Let’s topple some governments and bomb their countries into Democracy. Should arise some another powerful entity with it’s own view what is “rights”, that could enforce it’s will globally – and basic rights of old would become neither “universal”, nor “basic”.

So in your mind, the Russian constitution is worthless and should be disregarded?

Man, your defence of Russia is stellar!

So if Russia is not ready, it's the duty of the Russian government to step up its game and change things in order to make Russia move into modern times and become ready. Perhaps it will be costly, but as Liriena said, you can't be cheap when it comes to human rights.

So basically, Govlen suggests here that a minority should bully a government into unconditional surrender, and then the government should crush all dissent and enforce this “acceptance of tolerance”... how? By “camps of tolerance”? Political correct thought police? Gay propaganda? So, to become more democratic, in you opinion, Russia’s powers that be must become even more undemocratic, totally ignoring the opinion of the people, because of “the duty”! Right. What’s next? 2+2=5, White is Black, right is left, minority trumps majority.

Meanwhile, outside of fantasy land, how about we start by not actively violating the human rights of minorities?

Care to explain how not punishing a person for saying homosexual relationships are natural is crushing all dissent and enforcing “acceptance of tolerance”?

Every time I ask NS-board gay activists&Co “What is your plan?”, they either ignore it and continue Russia hating ad nauseam, or prove, by their answers, that they don’t have a firm grasp on the reality.

On the contrary, I have to point the finger back at you and ask you to join us in the real world.

[Respawn]

Look through this thread, and count the number of posts highlighting the lack of Coca Cola or hotel doors breaking.

Then count the number of posts where people are complaining about serious human rights abuses including unreasonable restrictions on freedom of expression and the repression of minorities.

When you've done that, and can show that the latter doesn't eclipse the former, you can come back and talk about unwarranted Russia bashing.

Uh, at no point was I simply referring to NSG. This place is bizarro-/pol/. Why should I examine the posts ITT to note the presence of Russia bashing?

Instead, look at the Twittersphere. Lately it has been obscure western journalists uploading fake or old images of supposedly crappy hotels just to get their five minutes of fame. And when human rights issues are mentioned, it is overwhelmingly about gay rights, hardly any mention of the other, more pressing issues in Russia. (yeah I know the jailing of dissidents was a big story not long ago, but that seems to have died out).

I really don't understand the human mentality.

Actually being happy about others' misery and taking pride in showing off how much better you have it is something I'll never understand. They don't know how it feels to see the incompetency and bureaucracy slowly killing a troubled country.

[Gravlen]

Look through this thread, and count the number of posts highlighting the lack of Coca Cola or hotel doors breaking.

Then count the number of posts where people are complaining about serious human rights abuses including unreasonable restrictions on freedom of expression and the repression of minorities.

When you've done that, and can show that the latter doesn't eclipse the former, you can come back and talk about unwarranted Russia bashing.

Uh, at no point was I simply referring to NSG. This place is bizarro-/pol/. Why should I examine the posts ITT to note the presence of Russia bashing?

Instead, look at the Twittersphere. Lately it has been obscure western journalists uploading fake or old images of supposedly crappy hotels just to get their five minutes of fame. And when human rights issues are mentioned, it is overwhelmingly about gay rights, hardly any mention of the other, more pressing issues in Russia. (yeah I know the jailing of dissidents was a big story not long ago, but that seems to have died out).

What? Easy and often amusing headlines about current stories trending on Twitter, the apex of human communications, instead of in-debth analyses?

Inconcievable!

Sir, next you'll tell me there's more funny cat pictures than pictures of human rights violations in Syria on the internet!

[Respawn]

i guess if you want to be condescending, that's fine, not that it will get you anywhere other than missing my point

maybe if i wrote "when human rights issues are mentioned in the wider media" and then put it in a separate paragraph from my twitter comment, you would have understood it easier idk

[Gallup]

This is a misunderstanding. The Olympic games has always been connected with politics.

I do like the quote,
"The Olympic Games and politics are inseparable. When someone claims that sport and politics do not mix, they have political motives for saying so. And they say it in order to achieve political gains."

Well I concede on that point. But just because politicising the olympics has always been done, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

I just find it very tasteless and embarrassing to mock the host. Especially over such retarded issues like not having any Coca Cola available and hotel doors breaking easily.

I am bored of Russia bashing in general, using every opportunity you can to brag about how great and superior the west is to the third world Slavs. I don't mind a bit of friendly banter, but you have to know when and how to do it.

And yes, I'm getting paid 10 rubles for every time I shill for Russia on NSG.

Damn, let me get in on that action.

[Sibirsky]

This is a misunderstanding. The Olympic games has always been connected with politics.

I do like the quote,
"The Olympic Games and politics are inseparable. When someone claims that sport and politics do not mix, they have political motives for saying so. And they say it in order to achieve political gains."

Well I concede on that point. But just because politicising the olympics has always been done, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

Yes, it is.

I just find it very tasteless and embarrassing to mock the host. Especially over such retarded issues like not having any Coca Cola available and hotel doors breaking easily.

Retarded issues?

Your defense of homophobia is tasteless.

Having brown and yellow water flow from faucets, if it is flowing at all is not a "retarded issue." Hotel rooms without door handles is a pretty major thing too. Communication devices hacked within minutes, also important.

You fail.

I am bored of Russia bashing in general, using every opportunity you can to brag about how great and superior the west is to the third world Slavs. I don't mind a bit of friendly banter, but you have to know when and how to do it.

And yes, I'm getting paid 10 rubles for every time I shill for Russia on NSG.

Criticism, especially criticism that is justified is not "bashing."

Your defense is as pathetic as the hotel rooms you are defending.

[Gallup]

I don't get why people say "homophobia". People aren't scared, or have a phobia, of gays.

[Gravlen]

i guess if you want to be condescending, that's fine, not that it will get you anywhere other than missing my point

maybe if i wrote "when human rights issues are mentioned in the wider media" and then put it in a separate paragraph from my twitter comment, you would have understood it easier idk

I'm sorry, but it's not that I'm missing the point, it's that you don't have a point.

You don't have to look long before you find articles such as this one and this one. While such articles might not create spiffy Twitter posts, these are the articles that are dominating the media. Not complaints about crappy hotels, but real criticism of the human rights violations taking place in modern day Russia.

[Ainin]

I don't get why people say "homophobia". People aren't scared, or have a phobia, of gays.

Definition #2 of -phobia

[Gallup]

I don't get why people say "homophobia". People aren't scared, or have a phobia, of gays.

Definition #2 of -phobia

"Controversially"

[Lyttenburgh]

"On 27 May 1993, homosexual acts between consenting males were legalised."

I know that. And now, what - it was criminalized again?

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/215116

Pfft. Some random crap from the First channel is definatly not the same as 24/7 state propaganda on TV, radio and RuNet.

[The Fascist American Empire]

That was much of the world's view when that occurred actually. Especially here in the U.S.

And was that a good thing? Does this somehow justify your belief that ignoring the suffering of others is an appropriate response?

But I doubt that gays and lesbians will get their own country…

The LGBTQI community wants equal rights and equal treatment, not their own country

I never said they wanted their own country dingbat! And humans, being the inherently selfish animal that we are, will naturally turn a blind eye. It's practically human nature.

[Liriena]

And was that a good thing? Does this somehow justify your belief that ignoring the suffering of others is an appropriate response?
The LGBTQI community wants equal rights and equal treatment, not their own country

I never said they wanted their own country dingbat! And humans, being the inherently selfish animal that we are, will naturally turn a blind eye. It's practically human nature.

Bullshit. Human beings are a social species.

We are not fucking predatory lizards.

[Liriena]

I don't get why people say "homophobia". People aren't scared, or have a phobia, of gays.

Actually, they kinda are. I mean, can you really claim there is no element of fear in statements such as "homosexuality will cause the collapse of our civilization"?

[Liriena]

So?

So stop pretending like authoritarianism and corruption in Russia is something new.

When have I ever made such a claim? Anyone who knows at least the basics of Russian history knows of Russia's long history of authoritarianism and corruption.

Stop pretending like most people's lives haven't improved under Putin's Administration.

I have never disputed this, much like I've never disputed the fact that, for instance, Chavez cult of personality improved the lives of impoverished Venezuelans.

Stop pretending that a good chunk of the current "critics", of the Anders Aslund variety, cared much about Russia's Human Rights when the country was weak.

When have I ever pretended such a thing?

Be fucking honest.

I'm not so shameless I'd be knowingly dishonest.

You want to critique the anti-Gay Rights Law - go for it.

Thanks... not that I needed your approval.

That's recent.

Politically? Yes.
Culturally? Clearly not.

But if you blame problems like terrorism on Putin, you're just laughable. Saying "boohoo a large country with over a hundred million people, spanning a good chunk of the planet, and having recently emerged from a troubled time period of semi-anarchy is having problems with corruption and authoritarianism" - well no shit Sherlock.

Fine.

[Liriena]

So basically, Govlen suggests here that a minority should bully a government into unconditional surrender,

If by "bully" you mean peaceful national and international activism aimed at raising awareness and pressuring the government into bringing its abuse of the human rights of LGBT people then... yeah, sure.

Doesn't sound so atrocious when accurately described, as opposed to misrepresented through scaaaaaaaary words, does it?

and then the government should crush all dissent and enforce this “acceptance of tolerance”...

Crush all dissent? No.
Force people to accept it? No.

Nobody wants a gay-friendly dictatorship. Just an LGBT-friendly government recognizing the human rights of LGBT people without pandering to the whims of a sector of society whose arguments against LGBT people are either irrelevant, false or just outright insane.

By “camps of tolerance”?

No.

Political correct thought police?

No.

Gay propaganda?

Yes, actually. Given how low awareness of LGBT issues seems to be in Russia, non-coercive propaganda aimed at educating the populace on said issues would be quite reasonable.

So, to become more democratic, in you opinion, Russia’s powers that be must become even more undemocratic, totally ignoring the opinion of the people, because of “the duty”!

The majority doesn't have the right to have its every whim imposed on minorities. This is a very basic principle in most democracies.

If the opinion of the people was "we must execute all Jews and homosexuals", would you ask the government to validate it?

How is Russia supposed to become more democratic if an extremely vulnerable and hated minority can't express itself?

Right. What’s next? 2+2=5, White is Black, right is left, minority trumps majority.

^This. But it’s much more fun to satisfy your own schadenfreude and bash Russia (suspicially denying that you are not Russophobic at all, no-no) then 1) Try to learn more and understand the country in question. 2) Suggest something working, ‘sides endless critique of Russia. Criticizing for it’s own sake is pointless. “All can spot bugs, not everyone ready to fix glitches”. Every time I ask NS-board gay activists&Co “What is your plan?”, they either ignore it and continue Russia hating ad nauseam, or prove, by their answers, that they don’t have a firm grasp on the reality.

As hominems aside.

[Liriena]

I will grant Russia this: they really do dominate the gayest sport on the face of the Earth... figure skating.

[Gravlen]

So basically, Govlen suggests here that a minority should bully a government into unconditional surrender,

If by "bully" you mean peaceful national and international activism aimed at raising awareness and pressuring the government into bringing its abuse of the human rights of LGBT people then... yeah, sure.

Doesn't sound so atrocious when accurately described, as opposed to misrepresented through scaaaaaaaary words, does it?

By Jove, you make this Govlen chap sound like a monster!

[Shofercia]

I will grant Russia this: they really do dominate the gayest sport on the face of the Earth... figure skating.

Figure skating is about as gay as slow dancing. Have you ever skated on ice with a partner of the opposite gender? Do you know how amazingly passionate that is? Figure skating makes for awesome dating