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Gays, Putin, and Skiing! Olympics Megathread: THE POLITICS

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Olympic event is your favorite?

Ice Hockey
73
32%
Curing
19
8%
Speed Skating/Short Track
9
4%
Figure Skating
20
9%
Sledding (Luge/Skeleton/Bobsleigh)
30
13%
Alpine Skiing
15
7%
Cross Country Skiing/Biathlon
15
7%
Ski Jumping/Nordic Combined
14
6%
Freestyle Skiing/Snowboarding
30
13%
 
Total votes : 225

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Shofercia
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Posts: 31339
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:09 am

Oil exporting People wrote:Russia has been utterly slammed by Western media, advocacy groups, and politicians. I find myself asking where were these same people in 2008 when the Olympics were in Communist China.


What I find more interesting is that when Yeltsin's Government kept Russia weak, but had even more atrocious violations than Putin's, and it was hailed by the West. Was was OSCE's terms for tanks shelling Parliament, and political parties being banned? "A step towards Democracy".

On the other hand Putin made Russia strong and a World Player. So despite him being much better than Yeltsin, he's being portrayed, as someone who, well, I'll just quote RD: "horrific, homophobic, corrupt, authoritarian, sham-democracy"

Of course there's corruption. Want to eliminate corruption overnight? You need someone like Stalin. Otherwise it's going to take time. Of course there's authoritarianism - when was something else the case? Tanks firing on Parliament? Political party being outlawed?

But you know what's nice? For the first time in a while, a candidate with a plus 55 percent approval rating, (overall,) was elected. For Russia's timid Civil Rights, even that's an improvement. Not that it'll ever be recognized. Because recognizing that would require something other than journalism that is, what's that word again? Oh yeah, "horrific".

http://exiledonline.com/how-the-west-he ... whitewash/

Ex-OSCE Mission Chief Reveals “Pressure” To Whitewash ’96 Election

“A Victory for Russian Democracy” —Title of a New York Times editorial, days after the ODIHR-approved 1996 presidential election

“Exit, Russian Democracy” —Title of a New York Times editorial, days before the ODIHR-boycotted 2007 Duma elections

In fact, he says, the OSCE and the West had made its mind up about how wonderfully free and fair Boris Yeltsin’s election was before voting even started. “The OSCE parliamentary assembly had a separate mission who were passionately pro-Yeltsin,” he said. “So you had two OSCE missions for the election, one of which arrived predisposed to say things were good.” The other was pressured to agree...While the Western media portrays the Russia-OSCE spat as a simple battle between bright democracy and dark autocracy, the Russian elite has a deeply cynical view of the OSCE based on personal experience. As Meadowcroft was not allowed to say at the time, Yeltsin’s victory in 1996 was rife with fraud. Most important to the outcome was the months-long blanket television support Yeltsin received and a “black PR” campaign against his Communist foe, Gennady Zyuganov; Russia’s print media was almost as bad. The election was not a “victory for optimists,” as the Hoover Institute’s notorious Yeltsin-cheerleader Michael McFaul wrote at the time. Rather, the technology of the fraudulent election, blessed by the West, served as the template for future Russian elections. But if few in the West know about this, it’s because the OSCE and the Western media only began to emphasize Russia’s systemic electoral fraud and media manipulation in 2003.
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Othelos
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Ex-Nation

Postby Othelos » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:09 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:That's nice but you don't get to make up your own definitions of things and expect us to use them.


What's funny is that I never said or suggested any of that. I kinda of that you would have recognized that I meant that comment as what I personally think.

What you personally think is irrelevant to reality.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:11 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Liriena wrote:They were probably expressing their concern for human rights violations in the People's Republic of China. I know it's not on the news 24/7, but I'm pretty sure there's been an awful lot of calling out China on its restrictions on free speech and pollution.


Probably as in you don't know?

Back in 2008, I was not as politically aware as I am now. In fact, I was one hell of a bigoted Russophile reactionary.

Oil exporting People wrote:All of the condemnations of Russia has run nearly 24/7, while things like Chinese Bar Tenders being ordered to not serve Blacks in 2008 barely got reported.

Barely got reported as in...?
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Oil exporting People
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Ex-Nation

Postby Oil exporting People » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:11 am

Blasveck wrote:And people pointed out those abuses during the Olympics.

Go figure.


No where near the extent they have with Russia.


Liriena wrote:Communism advocates for a society without government, classes or money. Please, do tell me where this has been applied in the Chinese mainland?


That's anarchy my friend, which Communism utterly opposes.
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Oil exporting People
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Postby Oil exporting People » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:12 am

Othelos wrote:What you personally think is irrelevant to reality.


And your point is what, exactly?
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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:13 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Liriena wrote:Communism advocates for a society without government, classes or money. Please, do tell me where this has been applied in the Chinese mainland?


That's anarchy my friend, which Communism utterly opposes.

Anarcho-communism is the ultimate goal of communism.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:13 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Liriena wrote:Communism advocates for a society without government, classes or money. Please, do tell me where this has been applied in the Chinese mainland?


That's anarchy my friend, which Communism utterly opposes.

Please, stop lying.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal) is a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology and movement that aims at the establishment of this social order.
be gay do crime


I am:
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An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:14 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Othelos wrote:What you personally think is irrelevant to reality.


And your point is what, exactly?

That China isn't a mix of communism and fascism.
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Pro: Human rights, equality, LGBT rights, socialized healthcare, the EU in theory, green energy, public transportation, the internet as a utility
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Sibirsky
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Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:14 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Blasveck wrote:And people pointed out those abuses during the Olympics.

Go figure.


No where near the extent they have with Russia.

Irrelevant and already addressed.

Liriena wrote:Communism advocates for a society without government, classes or money. Please, do tell me where this has been applied in the Chinese mainland?


That's anarchy my friend, which Communism utterly opposes.

Lol no.
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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
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Postby Liriena » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:14 am

Shofercia wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:Russia has been utterly slammed by Western media, advocacy groups, and politicians. I find myself asking where were these same people in 2008 when the Olympics were in Communist China.


What I find more interesting is that when Yeltsin's Government kept Russia weak, but had even more atrocious violations than Putin's, and it was hailed by the West. Was was OSCE's terms for tanks shelling Parliament, and political parties being banned? "A step towards Democracy".

On the other hand Putin made Russia strong and a World Player. So despite him being much better than Yeltsin, he's being portrayed, as someone who, well, I'll just quote RD: "horrific, homophobic, corrupt, authoritarian, sham-democracy"

Of course there's corruption. Want to eliminate corruption overnight? You need someone like Stalin. Otherwise it's going to take time. Of course there's authoritarianism - when was something else the case? Tanks firing on Parliament? Political party being outlawed?

But you know what's nice? For the first time in a while, a candidate with a plus 55 percent approval rating, (overall,) was elected. For Russia's timid Civil Rights, even that's an improvement. Not that it'll ever be recognized. Because recognizing that would require something other than journalism that is, what's that word again? Oh yeah, "horrific".

http://exiledonline.com/how-the-west-he ... whitewash/

Ex-OSCE Mission Chief Reveals “Pressure” To Whitewash ’96 Election

“A Victory for Russian Democracy” —Title of a New York Times editorial, days after the ODIHR-approved 1996 presidential election

“Exit, Russian Democracy” —Title of a New York Times editorial, days before the ODIHR-boycotted 2007 Duma elections

In fact, he says, the OSCE and the West had made its mind up about how wonderfully free and fair Boris Yeltsin’s election was before voting even started. “The OSCE parliamentary assembly had a separate mission who were passionately pro-Yeltsin,” he said. “So you had two OSCE missions for the election, one of which arrived predisposed to say things were good.” The other was pressured to agree...While the Western media portrays the Russia-OSCE spat as a simple battle between bright democracy and dark autocracy, the Russian elite has a deeply cynical view of the OSCE based on personal experience. As Meadowcroft was not allowed to say at the time, Yeltsin’s victory in 1996 was rife with fraud. Most important to the outcome was the months-long blanket television support Yeltsin received and a “black PR” campaign against his Communist foe, Gennady Zyuganov; Russia’s print media was almost as bad. The election was not a “victory for optimists,” as the Hoover Institute’s notorious Yeltsin-cheerleader Michael McFaul wrote at the time. Rather, the technology of the fraudulent election, blessed by the West, served as the template for future Russian elections. But if few in the West know about this, it’s because the OSCE and the Western media only began to emphasize Russia’s systemic electoral fraud and media manipulation in 2003.

So?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Occupied Deutschland
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:15 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Blasveck wrote:And people pointed out those abuses during the Olympics.

Go figure.


No where near the extent they have with Russia.

Which is reason to point out China's abuses.
NOT reason to whine about how unfair it is to call Russia on bigoted, homophobic bullshit because "They did worse! They did worse!"
Oil exporting People wrote:
Liriena wrote:Communism advocates for a society without government, classes or money. Please, do tell me where this has been applied in the Chinese mainland?


That's anarchy my friend, which Communism utterly opposes.

Actually, Communism is supposed to be an anarchic state of affairs. This is how it was envisioned and believed to occur as per the philosophical basis of it. That self-proclaimed communists over the years haven't fulfilled said vision doesn't change the meaning of the vision.

Whether said vision can be obtained without it naturally resulting in a corrupt dictatorship with no intention of actuallly fulfilling the anarchic state of affairs hoped for is a debate to be had. But Communism as an ideology is inherently anarchic.
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Sibirsky
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Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:16 am

Othelos wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:
And your point is what, exactly?

That China isn't a mix of communism and fascism.

It's just fascism. It's run by a single party that calls itself Communist so... that matters somehow.

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Srboslavija
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Ex-Nation

Postby Srboslavija » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:19 am

@Shofercia, feel the need to apologize to you my brother.

Even though I am not Russian, I've unintentionally incited the NSG "LGBT army" into further inflammatory, uninformed and hateful posts about Russia. Even though their concerns regarding LGBT Russia are valid and I support them, their spiteful attitude towards Russia as a whole has been the exact same of their right wing counterparts for decades now, ["Russia - the big, Red, corrupt thug"]. But alas, my efforts were counterproductive to say the least, lol.

It's best I stay away from this topic,
Kind regards.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:20 am

Srboslavija wrote:@Shofercia, feel the need to apologize to you my brother.

Even though I am not Russian, I've unintentionally incited the NSG "LGBT army" into further inflammatory, uninformed and hateful posts about Russia. Even though their concerns regarding LGBT Russia are valid and I support them, their spiteful attitude towards Russia as a whole has been the exact same of their right wing counterparts for decades now, ["Russia - the big, Red, corrupt thug"]. But alas, my efforts were counterproductive to say the least, lol.

It's best I stay away from this topic,
Kind regards.

Yeah, keep clinging to that strawman. At some point it's got to come alive, right? :roll:
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Shofercia
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Posts: 31339
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:23 am

Liriena wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
What I find more interesting is that when Yeltsin's Government kept Russia weak, but had even more atrocious violations than Putin's, and it was hailed by the West. Was was OSCE's terms for tanks shelling Parliament, and political parties being banned? "A step towards Democracy".

On the other hand Putin made Russia strong and a World Player. So despite him being much better than Yeltsin, he's being portrayed, as someone who, well, I'll just quote RD: "horrific, homophobic, corrupt, authoritarian, sham-democracy"

Of course there's corruption. Want to eliminate corruption overnight? You need someone like Stalin. Otherwise it's going to take time. Of course there's authoritarianism - when was something else the case? Tanks firing on Parliament? Political party being outlawed?

But you know what's nice? For the first time in a while, a candidate with a plus 55 percent approval rating, (overall,) was elected. For Russia's timid Civil Rights, even that's an improvement. Not that it'll ever be recognized. Because recognizing that would require something other than journalism that is, what's that word again? Oh yeah, "horrific".

http://exiledonline.com/how-the-west-he ... whitewash/


So?


So stop pretending like authoritarianism and corruption in Russia is something new. Stop pretending like most people's lives haven't improved under Putin's Administration. Stop pretending that a good chunk of the current "critics", of the Anders Aslund variety, cared much about Russia's Human Rights when the country was weak. Be fucking honest. You want to critique the anti-Gay Rights Law - go for it. That's recent. But if you blame problems like terrorism on Putin, you're just laughable. Saying "boohoo a large country with over a hundred million people, spanning a good chunk of the planet, and having recently emerged from a troubled time period of semi-anarchy is having problems with corruption and authoritarianism" - well no shit Sherlock.
Last edited by Shofercia on Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Othelos
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Ex-Nation

Postby Othelos » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:27 am

Srboslavija wrote:@Shofercia, feel the need to apologize to you my brother.

Even though I am not Russian, I've unintentionally incited the NSG "LGBT army" into further inflammatory, uninformed and hateful posts about Russia. Even though their concerns regarding LGBT Russia are valid and I support them, their spiteful attitude towards Russia as a whole has been the exact same of their right wing counterparts for decades now, ["Russia - the big, Red, corrupt thug"]. But alas, my efforts were counterproductive to say the least, lol.

It's best I stay away from this topic,
Kind regards.

What makes Russia so special? It's just some country.

Same for any country.
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Occupied Deutschland
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:30 am

Othelos wrote:
Srboslavija wrote:@Shofercia, feel the need to apologize to you my brother.

Even though I am not Russian, I've unintentionally incited the NSG "LGBT army" into further inflammatory, uninformed and hateful posts about Russia. Even though their concerns regarding LGBT Russia are valid and I support them, their spiteful attitude towards Russia as a whole has been the exact same of their right wing counterparts for decades now, ["Russia - the big, Red, corrupt thug"]. But alas, my efforts were counterproductive to say the least, lol.

It's best I stay away from this topic,
Kind regards.

What makes Russia so special? It's just some country.

Same for any country.

Russia's had a hard life. It's father was a drunk and beat it all the time, while it's mother passed away when it was very young. It's not in control of its actions, it's just crying for help on an international level and all anyone ever does is tell it that it's misbehaving. Nobody understands! They could never understand!
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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:32 am

Occupied Deutschland wrote:
Othelos wrote:What makes Russia so special? It's just some country.

Same for any country.

Russia's had a hard life. It's father was a drunk and beat it all the time, while it's mother passed away when it was very young. It's not in control of its actions, it's just crying for help on an international level and all anyone ever does is tell it that it's misbehaving. Nobody understands! They could never understand!


Are you trying to say something relevant?
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Occupied Deutschland
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:33 am

Shofercia wrote:
Occupied Deutschland wrote:Russia's had a hard life. It's father was a drunk and beat it all the time, while it's mother passed away when it was very young. It's not in control of its actions, it's just crying for help on an international level and all anyone ever does is tell it that it's misbehaving. Nobody understands! They could never understand!


Are you trying to say something relevant?

Insofar as comical asides could be labeled relevant, sure.

Other than that not really.
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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:42 am

Occupied Deutschland wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Are you trying to say something relevant?

Insofar as comical asides could be labeled relevant, sure.

Other than that not really.


There has to be some truth to every joke. Russia's had a rather easy time growing up. Between 862 and 1054, most of Russia's leaders were awesome, and way ahead of their time. St. Olga's taxation system, (oh yeah, women had actual power in Russia, while some other countries were busy lighting up the stakes) was the best one in Russia, and parts of it survive to this day. From 1054-1223/1240, Russia opted for a Confederate model, and some rulers were not quite stellar. Between 1240 and 1480 we had to fight off various infidels trying to take our stuff. What other names would the PR of today give them? Illegal immigrant with weapons? Perhaps. Anyways, 1480-1598 it was an interesting journey into Csardom. And then the Time of Troubles hit. The Poles were courteous enough to project Western Values by invading us at our weakest moment. Similar Western Values were projected on the Native Americans and Africans. They didn't work quite well against us. So between 1613-Peter the Great, we lived out lives, and developed our country. And then Peter the Great decided to drill a window into Europe. And that's when Europe thought that they discovered Russia.
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:06 am

Shofercia wrote:Be fucking honest. You want to critique the anti-Gay Rights Law - go for it. That's recent. But if you blame problems like terrorism on Putin, you're just laughable.


Interestingly, you're pretty much the only one who's brought up terrorism in this thread.

Shofercia wrote:Saying "boohoo a large country with over a hundred million people, spanning a good chunk of the planet, and having recently emerged from a troubled time period of semi-anarchy is having problems with corruption and authoritarianism" - well no shit Sherlock.


That's not really the issue here, though. The issue is that hosting the Olympics is an invitation for that corruption to descend and take advantage of the money that pours in.

And it's also an invitation for people to come in and see that corruption while it's busy at the Olympic trough, which makes this sort of complaining about 'Russophobia' or the like a bit disingenuous. If your country has problems with entrenched corruption, why invite the world to come and see it in action? One would think that Russia's priority should be dealing with that first, if for no other reason than to spare itself having to deal with things like the 8 billion dollar road in Sochi.

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Gravlen
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Postby Gravlen » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:12 am

Respawn wrote:The Olympics are supposed to be a break from the politics. Its a time to share dreams, not bitch and moan about policies and hotels.

This is a misunderstanding. The Olympic games has always been connected with politics.

I do like the quote,
"The Olympic Games and politics are inseparable. When someone claims that sport and politics do not mix, they have political motives for saying so. And they say it in order to achieve political gains."
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That's preposterous. Gravlens's not a white nationalist; Gravlen's a penguin.

Unio de Sovetaj Socialismaj Respublikoj wrote:There is no use arguing the definition of murder with someone who has a picture of a penguin with a chainsaw as their nations flag.

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Gravlen
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Gravlen » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:20 am

Srboslavija wrote:My support for the western LGBT community was much higher before they recently "disocovered" Russia. :roll:

Ah, thank you for giving an example of what a " fairweather activist" would look like.
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That's preposterous. Gravlens's not a white nationalist; Gravlen's a penguin.

Unio de Sovetaj Socialismaj Respublikoj wrote:There is no use arguing the definition of murder with someone who has a picture of a penguin with a chainsaw as their nations flag.

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Gravlen
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Gravlen » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:22 am

Oil exporting People wrote:Russia has been utterly slammed by Western media, advocacy groups, and politicians. I find myself asking where were these same people in 2008 when the Olympics were in Communist China.

Too bad you can't go back to Jolt and check out the posts that were made on the human rights situation in China in connection with the Olympic games back in 2008...
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That's preposterous. Gravlens's not a white nationalist; Gravlen's a penguin.

Unio de Sovetaj Socialismaj Respublikoj wrote:There is no use arguing the definition of murder with someone who has a picture of a penguin with a chainsaw as their nations flag.

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:13 am

Srboslavija wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:While that's an issue that needs to be dealt with, it pales in comparison to Russia's horrific anti-LGBT discrimination. Stop trying to distract from the topic, which is Russia. I know that you don't like having the super special perfect amazing Russia called out for what it is, but a spade is a spade, and Russia is continuing to treat its LGBT population as second class citizens.


:roll:

I should say the same to you, since this topic was originally about the Winter Olympics in Sochi.

Until it was distracted - see, hijacked.


Actually, as this particular topic is about the political controversies surrounding the Olympics, it's very much relevant, and no hijacking has been involved at any point. I specifically asked for a separate thread to be created so that issues such as this one could be discussed openly without hijacking the thread from those who wished to discuss the actual sporting events.

So, in other words, we're all very much on topic. Please directly answer the posts being raised to challenge your points without intellectual dishonesty, deflection, or outright fallacies.

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