The White Persecution Complex

[Russadonia]

Nobody is saying that we should be held accountable, I'm saying we should remember and feel remorse. No, it isn't racist more racist that you should have to remember than it was for them to have their belongings forcefully removed and moved across the country against their will. Jesus Christ.

There's no practical and pressing imperative for the course of action you are suggesting. There was for the interment...

Other than remembering that we fucked and try not to repeat it? Okay, whatever.

[God Kefka]

There's no practical and pressing imperative for the course of action you are suggesting. There was for the interment...

Other than remembering that we fucked and try not to repeat it? Okay, whatever.

It was a perfectly sensible course of action.

If I'm a Lannister and my lands are at war with the Tyrells; I would immediately lock up anyone who has anything to do with the Tyrells or who is related to them. It just makes sense...

Not doing this is idealistic and naive...

Why would you want to fight a war and not do do what's wise to minimize the chances of the enemy sabotaging you? War's not the time for lofty ideals; it's time for pragmatism and putting safety first.

[Nazi Flower Power]

The Allies said we are not allowed to use that excuse. They are meanies...

yeah but it doesn't surprise me... after all, the Allies was always an imperialist alliance. The Soviets wanted to rule Eastern Europe, the British wanted to maintain their global colonial empire, and the USA wanted to expand its global influence.

WWII was not a war between good guys and bad guys, it was a war between two sets of empires.

The Axis side really was worse, though. Both sides had their share of douchebags, but dude... Hitler and Tojo took douchebaggery to a whole new level.

[God Kefka]

Actually, it's always been the American way to deprive marginalized groups of their lands, rights and benefits when it suited the interests of the elite.

They did it to the Indians, the Mexicans, and even as the war was being fought there was systemic discrimination and violence against blacks.

Now what's UNIQUE about the American way of oppressing minorities is that they love to do it in public and in the open while also publicly announcing their moral superiority. Who else would have the shamelessness to fight a war to liberate themselves from the British to continue to enslave blacks and Indians? who else would have the shamelessness of claiming to be fighting for freedom in the Middle East while invading and oppressing entire countries?

So i guess they felt they could discriminate just a little bit more if it could help achieve a practical outcome (minimize odds of being spied upon). After all, when the page is already black, one more drop of black ink won't be noticeable or make a real difference in how it looks as a whole.

Ummm....you just proved my point, so, uhh, thanks.

It does seem that you do not understand that American ideals are completely different from their actions. I'd point you in the direction of the nearest anthropology class.

I'm saying they can afford to be a bit more pragmatic given that no sensible person by that point in history could take the ideals their elites espouse with any degree of real seriousness.

And they did... they chose pragmatism, the course of action that minimizes the odds of being spied upon by eliminating a few suspicious pools of people. It makes sense.

[Empire of Narnia]

It is a sign of a fractured society where every single cultural/ethnic group feels discriminated against. Disunity has created persecution complexes among many groups who all feel they are not properly being taken care of by State.

[God Kefka]

yeah but it doesn't surprise me... after all, the Allies was always an imperialist alliance. The Soviets wanted to rule Eastern Europe, the British wanted to maintain their global colonial empire, and the USA wanted to expand its global influence.

WWII was not a war between good guys and bad guys, it was a war between two sets of empires.

The Axis side really was worse, though. Both sides had their share of douchebags, but dude... Hitler and Tojo took douchebaggery to a whole new level.

Well they were really just trying to imitate what Britain, France, Spain and others were doing a few years before except in accelerated mode and on steroids (with really modern weapons and mass production tech).

They didn't have very good role models...

And since by that time Britain and France already colonized most of the world and thus have most of the world's pizza, the Germans the Japanese being the late comers to the party had to go all-out for the remaining slices.

[Russadonia]

Why not? It is our collective ideals as a nation (which was at the time largely based on the ideals of whites) which led to this. That guilt is one of the factors which keep history from repeating itself. No one is saying you are directly responsible, but white people as a whole are, and we need to realize this, acknowledge, and try to correct society.

By holding the responsible parties accountable and not following in their footsteps, not by walking around with a bunch of racial guilt lodged in our heads. White people as a whole aren't responsible for jack shit. White people aren't some kind of hivemind conspiracy.

The US government as an institution is responsible for its actions, which is why it paid reparations for the internment camps. Unlike the white race, the US government is a clearly defined entity made up of members who chose to be part of it, who have some control over each other's actions, and have been organized to serve a common purpose. They might not always do a great job of working together or agreeing on what their purpose is, but they all have joined an institution which has its own identity, its own power, and its own responsibilities beyond those of its individual members. White people do not choose to be white, do not have any special means of controlling the actions of other white people, and do not have any race-wide organization or shared purpose.

We are never going to agree. I see your point, I just don't see any validity in it. Nobody said anything about a hivemind conspiracy and it has no relevance here. White people are responsible for a ton of shit. The list is long, but racism is definitely in there.

[Russadonia]

It is a sign of a fractured society where every single cultural/ethnic group feels discriminated against. Disunity has created persecution complexes among many groups who all feel they are not properly being taken care of by State.

Or maybe historical persecution has led to persecution complexes.

[Russadonia]

Ummm....you just proved my point, so, uhh, thanks.

It does seem that you do not understand that American ideals are completely different from their actions. I'd point you in the direction of the nearest anthropology class.

I'm saying they can afford to be a bit more pragmatic given that no sensible person by that point in history could take the ideals their elites espouse with any degree of real seriousness.

And they did... they chose pragmatism, the course of action that minimizes the odds of being spied upon by eliminating a few suspicious pools of people. It makes sense.

I get the logic, I really do, but said logic doesn't make it any less fucked up or racist.

[Mavorpen]

Colleges exclude you from scholarships for being white, when colleges give free stuff to people who are nonwhite,

You DO know there are a shit ton of scholarships for people of "white" ancestry, right? Really, it takes five seconds of searching Google.

http://scholarships.fastweb.com/e-irish-students
http://www.schoolsoup.com/scholarship-d ... n-descent/
http://www.schoolsoup.com/scholarship-d ... h-descent/

when tests have explicit sections on them where you fill in certain bubbles to indicate whether you are a certain ethnicity to apply to a certain scholarship (My PSAT had a special box for African Americans who wanted to apply for the Negro College Fund) yet there are no sections for whites, rich or poor, no matter what country you come from.

Which has a very good reason behind it. Despite the fact that things like this exist, white people STILL disproportionately receive scholarship money. Thus, the goal is to get more possible applicants for minorities. The fact that ANY white person would complain about this only amounts to, "how DARE those dirty niggers take away scholarship money that should go to me?!?!?!111one!?"

Combine this with the fact that the "safe space" idea in schools is ruthlessly enforced (at least in my area) except in cases where teachers and students decide to bash, slander, and otherwise defame any person of light complexion for the acts of their ancestors.

And every day, I ride off into the sunset on my pink unicorn.

I've had teachers stop in the hallways to give referrals to students for using terms such as "fag," and rightfully so, yet I see them calmly walk by while groups of students blame the troubles of the entire world on white people.

This is indeed outrageous. How dare those teachers not teach you that your silly anecdotes aren't a substitute for actual data. If you really think, "X happened at my high school!" is enough to scream and shout that there is a nationwide injustice, your school failed you.

When it is considered okay to have a BET

Wait... what's wrong with BET?

a Black Student Union, a Latinos Unidos, and special award nights for nonwhites but then prevent a white student group from forming an "English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh Club" (again something that happened at my school) and refuse the proposal that there be award nights for people of all types of cultural backgrounds, not on skin color (again, happened at my school)

Could you explain why we should a) believe you and b) take this at a face value in a discussion about trends and data on a national scale? Despite what you may believe, your experiences (which are questionable at best in the first place) mean utterly nothing on a national scale and once again, amounts to nothing more than whining that you no longer can subjugate minorities.

you have certain public school classes with quotas for "people of color" (my school)

Um... no you don't. No school in this country has quotas. That's illegal.

you have teachers supporting the idea that all white people are privileged no matter their situation, and when you dane to suggest that things may not be the way that they would have you believe, that perhaps white people aren't always privileged, that perhaps there is a little racism going in your direction or a little religious hate coming towards Christians (Christian shaming definitely takes place at my school), then you are told that you are wrong, you are told to sit down, and you are told it is time to move on to another topic.

Well, that's probably because you are wrong.

Given these circumstances, as an average American, you could probably come to the conclusion that the system is working against you for merely being white and possibly Christian.

Well, sure. If you have the mentality of a child and don't understand that personal anecdotes aren't a placeholder for data or noticeable trends or patterns on a national scale.

[Kylia]

NSG and race. Never gets old.

Here is my radical proposal.

Let us be judged as an individual. Not be judged by potential ancestors with similar melinin ratios? M'kay?

Sure. We can start this as soon race no longer correlates with socio-economic status, education, crime and other factors which are the direct result of centuries of institutionalized oppression. M'kay?

Yeah. The white people and their eeeeevil capitalism. It's obviously the whites' fault for the minorities' trouble.

[Osterlais]

Why would you want to fight a war and not do do what's wise to minimize the chances of the enemy sabotaging you? War's not the time for lofty ideals; it's time for pragmatism and putting safety first.

Actually, Hawaii which had been directly attacked and had way more Japanese, didn't have internment camps. That was all paranoid Californians. Of course maybe it was its high percentage of Japanese that meant most Hawaiians were familiar with them, and didn't fear them?

This is related to the OP. Some white people are scared. The way to reduce that fear, is not to fan the flames of racial hatred, or denounce their claims as insignificant or invalid. The original poster wants to change people's mind, to convince them they are not persecuted, but because he does not understand how they think, he acts in a way that feeds their paranoia.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I see you have embraced National Socialist thought. Would you like to join the NSDAP?

I didn't realize the NSDAP and National Socialist thought were germanophobic...

but they say you learn something new every day...

National Socialism isn't inherently Germanophobic, but it can be if your country is having a problem with Germans. National Socialism teaches that it is OK to engage in racial persecution if a racial minority poses a threat to your country's interests. It does not require that you sort out which individuals are causing the problem and which are innocent people who just happen to be the same race.

[Russadonia]

Sure. We can start this as soon race no longer correlates with socio-economic status, education, crime and other factors which are the direct result of centuries of institutionalized oppression. M'kay?

Yeah. The white people and their eeeeevil capitalism. It's obviously the whites' fault for the minorities' trouble.

This isn't about capitalism. I beg you to read a sociological study on the subject, seriously they can be easily accessed in most libraries. Most problems affecting blacks and Hispanics, such as those listed above in the modern United States are the result of historical oppression. I'm not saying that modern whites are completely responsible, but your passive-aggressive statement ignores facts.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Nobody is saying that we should be held accountable, I'm saying we should remember and feel remorse. No, it isn't racist more racist that you should have to remember than it was for them to have their belongings forcefully removed and moved across the country against their will. Jesus Christ.

There's no practical and pressing imperative for the course of action you are suggesting. There was for the interment...

It really wasn't that practical or that pressing. Setting up the camps was a big waste of time, manpower, etc.

[Empire of Narnia]

It is a sign of a fractured society where every single cultural/ethnic group feels discriminated against. Disunity has created persecution complexes among many groups who all feel they are not properly being taken care of by State.

Or maybe historical persecution has led to persecution complexes.

Historically those of European ancestry did not face much discrimination in Canada or America.

[Russadonia]

Or maybe historical persecution has led to persecution complexes.

Historically those of European ancestry did not face much discrimination in Canada or America.

I agree. They still don't.

[Nazi Flower Power]

We are never going to agree. I see your point, I just don't see any validity in it. Nobody said anything about a hivemind conspiracy and it has no relevance here. White people are responsible for a ton of shit. The list is long, but racism is definitely in there.

Some individual white people, yes. White people as a collective, no.

If white people can be held collectively responsible for racism, then black people can be held collectively responsible for high crime rates in inner cities. Making that sort of generalizations just opens up a whole can of worms.

[Euronion]

I'm not suggesting that persecution does not exist, but I am saying that the outrage is unjustified. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude, that you are being persecuted against for your skin color if you are white. Allow me to demonstrate how someone could come to believe this from their own experiences (everything below are things that have taken place at my school in the last four years)

Colleges exclude you from scholarships for being white, when colleges give free stuff to people who are nonwhite, when tests have explicit sections on them where you fill in certain bubbles to indicate whether you are a certain ethnicity to apply to a certain scholarship (My PSAT had a special box for African Americans who wanted to apply for the Negro College Fund) yet there are no sections for whites, rich or poor, no matter what country you come from. Combine this with the fact that the "safe space" idea in schools is ruthlessly enforced (at least in my area) except in cases where teachers and students decide to bash, slander, and otherwise defame any person of light complexion for the acts of their ancestors. I've had teachers stop in the hallways to give referrals to students for using terms such as "fag," and rightfully so, yet I see them calmly walk by while groups of students blame the troubles of the entire world on white people. When it is considered okay to have a BET, a Black Student Union, a Latinos Unidos, and special award nights for nonwhites but then prevent a white student group from forming an "English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh Club" (again something that happened at my school) and refuse the proposal that there be award nights for people of all types of cultural backgrounds, not on skin color (again, happened at my school) you have certain public school classes with quotas for "people of color" (my school) you have teachers supporting the idea that all white people are privileged no matter their situation, and when you dane to suggest that things may not be the way that they would have you believe, that perhaps white people aren't always privileged, that perhaps there is a little racism going in your direction or a little religious hate coming towards Christians (Christian shaming definitely takes place at my school), then you are told that you are wrong, you are told to sit down, and you are told it is time to move on to another topic.

Given these circumstances, as an average American, you could probably come to the conclusion that the system is working against you for merely being white and possibly Christian. It is perfectly human and perfectly reasonable to assume such things, in fact, one could argue it's evolutionarily built into us for good measure. If you could perceive that a group of people around you and more powerful than you were working against you, it was probably a good idea to leave and go somewhere more friendly to you, some Jews realized this before the Holocaust, some Christians realized this before the Syrian Civil War and the Arab Spring. I think it is foolish to dismiss any group who claims to be persecuted against as having no troubles and waving it aside like a pesky fly that isn't worth your time. For example, a Christian woman working in a British Airport was told she could not wear her cross at work or she would be fired, the case went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights were Britain was found in violation of the woman's religious rights (I remind you that the British Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Airport). In many countries Christians are raped, executed, burned, and forced into conversion by the blade of a knife or the barrel of a gun. Persecution happens at varying degrees of severity in different places. Is there persecution against the "majority"? yes, does this mean persecution against the minority has disappeared? no. So I think that we should really stop saying "meh, persecution complex" and start looking at WHY people feel this way and begin to try and repair race relations because it is now clear that if the current system is designed to repair race relations over time, it is having the exact opposite effect.

Seriously, I hear this stuff all the time. I don't agree.

I am white and I received several scholarships to pay for my school, hell, I studied in Russia on full scholarship courtesy the State of Texas. The reason why race-exclusive scholarships for non-whites exist is because historically, non-whites do not have equal access to opportunities and funding that whites do. Poverty disproportionately affects blacks and Hispanics and these programs are meant to fill the gap, otherwise they would not have access to higher education and such. White privilege does exist regardless of situation because race cannot be hidden. A white man may be poor, but he still has a better chance of success in this country because of his race. Whites don't need white identity clubs because most clubs are still white clubs, dominated by whites and controlled by whites. The purpose of identity clubs is to give minorities a place to be free of unfair expectations placed on them by whites where they can themselves succeed without being held down by whites, whether the whites do it unconsciously or not.

Christians are not persecuted against. I will always feel this notion is ridiculous. Just because you get told to stop bullying the gay kid does not mean you are being persecuted against.

1. I'm not talking about what happened historically, I'm talking about perceptions and how many Americans can view themselves as being persecuted due to all these factors combined. I also completely disagree with you on a great deal of what you said but this is not about historical and social debate but about perception so I'm going to avoid going on that tangent.

2. Really? Because I could've sworn that "persecution" is a valid word when one is talking about the murder, rape, pillaging, and sacking of a group of people for either their beliefs or their ethnicity. I also don't see what bully a gay kid has to do with a Woman's right to wear a small cross under her uniform being told that she could either get rid of it or lose her job. Like it or not persecution against Christians is real. Pastor Saeed is currently imprisoned by the Iranian government because he is an Iranian-American Christian who went to Iran for a short period. He is still imprisoned. I'm very sick of this idea that because violence, murder, rape, and pillaging is against Christians, it's suddenly not persecution.

[Euronion]

Or maybe historical persecution has led to persecution complexes.

Historically those of European ancestry did not face much discrimination in Canada or America.

Not true, People from Eastern Europe and Ireland particularly were rather despised and hated in America.

[Nazi Flower Power]

This is related to the OP. Some white people are scared. The way to reduce that fear, is not to fan the flames of racial hatred, or denounce their claims as insignificant or invalid. The original poster wants to change people's mind, to convince them they are not persecuted, but because he does not understand how they think, he acts in a way that feeds their paranoia.

^This.

Though it does get a little tricky when someone has a completely irrational claim like "OMG! If you walk through a black neighborhood you are guaranteed to be shot!" Sometimes you do need to tell people to calm down and stop exaggerating so you can have a reasonable conversation.

[Mavorpen]

1. I'm not talking about what happened historically, I'm talking about perceptions and how many Americans can view themselves as being persecuted due to all these factors combined. I also completely disagree with you on a great deal of what you said but this is not about historical and social debate but about perception so I'm going to avoid going on that tangent.

You're missing his point. He gets that you're talking about perceptions. His issue is that quite frankly, the perceptions that you listed were either based on ignorance and/or massive exaggerations. Basically, the issue is that you're comparing apple to oranges. Blacks, gays, women, etc. have legitimate reasons to complain about systematic discrimination in places such as the United States. White, male Christians? Not so much.

[Mavorpen]

Or maybe historical persecution has led to persecution complexes.

Historically those of European ancestry did not face much discrimination in Canada or America.

Is that so?

[Kingdom of Israel]

Let's see. I can actually agree with this. Any time a White employer fires a black person. It is immediately racist.

If a Black man is shot by a white man. It is automatically a hate crime

If a white man says the N word he is racist even though blacks say it around themselves all the time.

Blacks say they want to be called "African-Americans" Then call us "Caucasians" White.

I understand we aren't persecuted more than blacks but we are heading down that road.

I'm not sure if white people haven't already passed the Africans.

Unfortunately Jews are probably still the most persecuted.

[Russadonia]

Seriously, I hear this stuff all the time. I don't agree.

I am white and I received several scholarships to pay for my school, hell, I studied in Russia on full scholarship courtesy the State of Texas. The reason why race-exclusive scholarships for non-whites exist is because historically, non-whites do not have equal access to opportunities and funding that whites do. Poverty disproportionately affects blacks and Hispanics and these programs are meant to fill the gap, otherwise they would not have access to higher education and such. White privilege does exist regardless of situation because race cannot be hidden. A white man may be poor, but he still has a better chance of success in this country because of his race. Whites don't need white identity clubs because most clubs are still white clubs, dominated by whites and controlled by whites. The purpose of identity clubs is to give minorities a place to be free of unfair expectations placed on them by whites where they can themselves succeed without being held down by whites, whether the whites do it unconsciously or not.

Christians are not persecuted against. I will always feel this notion is ridiculous. Just because you get told to stop bullying the gay kid does not mean you are being persecuted against.

1. I'm not talking about what happened historically, I'm talking about perceptions and how many Americans can view themselves as being persecuted due to all these factors combined. I also completely disagree with you on a great deal of what you said but this is not about historical and social debate but about perception so I'm going to avoid going on that tangent.

2. Really? Because I could've sworn that "persecution" is a valid word when one is talking about the murder, rape, pillaging, and sacking of a group of people for either their beliefs or their ethnicity. I also don't see what bully a gay kid has to do with a Woman's right to wear a small cross under her uniform being told that she could either get rid of it or lose her job. Like it or not persecution against Christians is real. Pastor Saeed is currently imprisoned by the Iranian government because he is an Iranian-American Christian who went to Iran for a short period. He is still imprisoned. I'm very sick of this idea that because violence, murder, rape, and pillaging is against Christians, it's suddenly not persecution.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase: Christians in the United States are not persecuted. Again, just because you get told to stop bullying the gay kid does not mean you are being persecuted.

Also, perception has everything to do with history because that is the root of it. White people in the modern United States are not persecuted. They aren't refused service for their race, they aren't disproportionately affected by poverty and incarceration rates, they are not beaten to death in small southern towns, they do not have crosses burned in their yards, they are not disproportionately stopped and searched by police. White Americans are not the victims persecution. They perceive this persecution because they are losing their former place of power.