The White Persecution Complex

[Russadonia]

Which is precisely why I pointed out the concept of White Guilt. They are saying we deserve less because of our past racist actions, which are completely independent of other group's perceived racist actions. What they should be doing to feel less burden is not to rationalize those actions by comparison, but rather by analyzing our racist actions in society and attempting to correct the situation. Therefore, other societies are irrelevant.

"Deserve less" is a comparison, not a generic statement that we (and maybe everyone else too) should be humble.

I get that, but the comparison needs to stay within the confines of the culture it belongs to: a modern European-descended one. To pull it from this context does not make sense.

[Nazi Flower Power]

"Deserve less" is a comparison, not a generic statement that we (and maybe everyone else too) should be humble.

I get that, but the comparison needs to stay within the confines of the culture it belongs to: a modern European-descended one. To pull it from this context does not make sense.

When you are sharing the world with many other people, and you are sharing your country with immigrants from all over the world, why should you not take their history into consideration?

[Russadonia]

I get that, but the comparison needs to stay within the confines of the culture it belongs to: a modern European-descended one. To pull it from this context does not make sense.

When you are sharing the world with many other people, and you are sharing your country with immigrants from all over the world, why should you not take their history into consideration?

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

The point is: it doesn't matter that a Japanese person tortured a Korean at the same time a white person was burning a cross in a black person's yard. They are completely different actions which are the result of different cultures.

[God Kefka]

When you are sharing the world with many other people, and you are sharing your country with immigrants from all over the world, why should you not take their history into consideration?

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

they were interned to protect North America from Axis sabotage...

[Russadonia]

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

they were interned to protect North America from Axis sabotage...

I know the supposed logic behind the internment, but that still doesn't justify such a horrific action on the part of a "free" country. Anyway, this discussion is for another thread, I was only using it as an example.

[Nazi Flower Power]

When you are sharing the world with many other people, and you are sharing your country with immigrants from all over the world, why should you not take their history into consideration?

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

The point is: it doesn't matter that a Japanese person tortured a Korean at the same time a white person was burning a cross in a black person's yard. They are completely different actions which are the result of different cultures.

Unless you participated in or supported the internment camps, you don't need to feel guilty.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

they were interned to protect North America from Axis sabotage...

It was still a stupid and racist thing to do.

[God Kefka]

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

The point is: it doesn't matter that a Japanese person tortured a Korean at the same time a white person was burning a cross in a black person's yard. They are completely different actions which are the result of different cultures.

Unless you participated in or supported the internment camps, you don't need to feel guilty.

even if you did... you were just following orders... right?

[God Kefka]

they were interned to protect North America from Axis sabotage...

It was still a stupid and racist thing to do.

hardly... I mean it did turn out that almost all the identified spies in America of World War I were ethnically German.

So the US decided not have this stuff happen again in round 2...

See sometimes the practical thing to do in a time of war isn't what's most politically correct...

[Russadonia]

Under that logic, we simply should not feel guilty about Japanese-American and German-American internment and the appropriation of all of their belongings because, hey, the Japanese did racist things to Chinese people and those pesky Germans are responsible for the holocaust.

The point is: it doesn't matter that a Japanese person tortured a Korean at the same time a white person was burning a cross in a black person's yard. They are completely different actions which are the result of different cultures.

Unless you participated in or supported the internment camps, you don't need to feel guilty.

Why not? It is our collective ideals as a nation (which was at the time largely based on the ideals of whites) which led to this. That guilt is one of the factors which keep history from repeating itself. No one is saying you are directly responsible, but white people as a whole are, and we need to realize this, acknowledge, and try to correct society.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Unless you participated in or supported the internment camps, you don't need to feel guilty.

even if you did... you were just following orders... right?

The Allies said we are not allowed to use that excuse. They are meanies...

[God Kefka]

Unless you participated in or supported the internment camps, you don't need to feel guilty.

Why not? It is our collective ideals as a nation (which was at the time largely based on the ideals of whites) which led to this. That guilt is one of the factors which keep history from repeating itself. No one is saying you are directly responsible, but white people as a whole are, and we need to realize this, acknowledge, and try to correct society.

Ironically, isn't that perhaps MORE racist than the WWII internment policies?

Now every person by virtue of skin color must be held accountable for everything his race has done not only in the present but also in the past...

[Nazi Flower Power]

It was still a stupid and racist thing to do.

hardly... I mean it did turn out that almost all the identified spies in America of World War I were ethnically German.

So the US decided not have this stuff happen again in round 2...

See sometimes the practical thing to do in a time of war isn't what's most politically correct...

I see you have embraced National Socialist thought. Would you like to join the NSDAP?

[Russadonia]

It was still a stupid and racist thing to do.

hardly... I mean it did turn out that almost all the identified spies in America of World War I were ethnically German.

So the US decided not have this stuff happen again in round 2...

See sometimes the practical thing to do in a time of war isn't what's most politically correct...

Regardless if there were a lot of spies of German ancestry, it is hypocritically un-american to lock away a whole group of people because of their ancestry.

It also helped the US government in that it now had access to all these people's belongings, including land, bank accounts and valuable heirlooms. Seems pretty convenient to me.

[God Kefka]

even if you did... you were just following orders... right?

The Allies said we are not allowed to use that excuse. They are meanies...

yeah but it doesn't surprise me... after all, the Allies was always an imperialist alliance. The Soviets wanted to rule Eastern Europe, the British wanted to maintain their global colonial empire, and the USA wanted to expand its global influence.

WWII was not a war between good guys and bad guys, it was a war between two sets of empires.

[Russadonia]

Why not? It is our collective ideals as a nation (which was at the time largely based on the ideals of whites) which led to this. That guilt is one of the factors which keep history from repeating itself. No one is saying you are directly responsible, but white people as a whole are, and we need to realize this, acknowledge, and try to correct society.

Ironically, isn't that perhaps MORE racist than the WWII internment policies?

Now every person by virtue of skin color must be held accountable for everything his race has done not only in the present but also in the past...

Nobody is saying that we should be held accountable, I'm saying we should remember and feel remorse. No, it isn't racist more racist that you should have to remember than it was for them to have their belongings forcefully removed and moved across the country against their will. Jesus Christ.

[Euronion]

So people think they're being persecuted because of their experiences, that's nothing new. People talk about the "Christian Persecution Complex" but I cannot tell you how many times I've heard atheists say that they are persecuted against, how Muslims believe they are persecuted against in their own Sharia law countries. People are inclined to believe they are victims of persecution because of their experiences. I live in a very diverse school and there is no tolerance for racism, homophobia, or sexism, that is unless you want to bash on men, white people, and Christians. With the debate on Affirmative Action it is not that hard to see why white Americans would view themselves to be more persecuted than other groups. It may not be the reality, but it's what they perceive. Humans have issues looking at things outside themselves and thinking "I don't have it bad, I have no troubles." It's easy to say but most humans like to believe they are in the center of some kind of struggle against the Big Ebil Government or the Big Ebil Republicans/Democrats or the Big Ebil Christians/Atheists. All of it boils down to the fact that humans are naturally inclined to believe that they individually are important and that their struggles represent the struggle of others. I would say stop calling it "The <insert human trait here> Persecution Complex" and start calling it what it really is: natural human behavior.

To reference another person's post earlier in the thread: People think they are the center of attention, News at 7

Your statement is not entirely represented of the truth because it manages to erase persecution that does often exist, just asked James Byrd, Jr., or Matthew Shepard. I do agree that most persecution is imagined or perceived, especially by whites and Christians, but we have so far failed to examine why a minority may perceive themselves as persecuted, which is the result of a history of persecution on the part of straight, white, Christians.

I'm not suggesting that persecution does not exist, but I am saying that the outrage is unjustified. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude, that you are being persecuted against for your skin color if you are white. Allow me to demonstrate how someone could come to believe this from their own experiences (everything below are things that have taken place at my school in the last four years)

Colleges exclude you from scholarships for being white, when colleges give free stuff to people who are nonwhite, when tests have explicit sections on them where you fill in certain bubbles to indicate whether you are a certain ethnicity to apply to a certain scholarship (My PSAT had a special box for African Americans who wanted to apply for the Negro College Fund) yet there are no sections for whites, rich or poor, no matter what country you come from. Combine this with the fact that the "safe space" idea in schools is ruthlessly enforced (at least in my area) except in cases where teachers and students decide to bash, slander, and otherwise defame any person of light complexion for the acts of their ancestors. I've had teachers stop in the hallways to give referrals to students for using terms such as "fag," and rightfully so, yet I see them calmly walk by while groups of students blame the troubles of the entire world on white people. When it is considered okay to have a BET, a Black Student Union, a Latinos Unidos, and special award nights for nonwhites but then prevent a white student group from forming an "English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh Club" (again something that happened at my school) and refuse the proposal that there be award nights for people of all types of cultural backgrounds, not on skin color (again, happened at my school) you have certain public school classes with quotas for "people of color" (my school) you have teachers supporting the idea that all white people are privileged no matter their situation, and when you dane to suggest that things may not be the way that they would have you believe, that perhaps white people aren't always privileged, that perhaps there is a little racism going in your direction or a little religious hate coming towards Christians (Christian shaming definitely takes place at my school), then you are told that you are wrong, you are told to sit down, and you are told it is time to move on to another topic.

Given these circumstances, as an average American, you could probably come to the conclusion that the system is working against you for merely being white and possibly Christian. It is perfectly human and perfectly reasonable to assume such things, in fact, one could argue it's evolutionarily built into us for good measure. If you could perceive that a group of people around you and more powerful than you were working against you, it was probably a good idea to leave and go somewhere more friendly to you, some Jews realized this before the Holocaust, some Christians realized this before the Syrian Civil War and the Arab Spring. I think it is foolish to dismiss any group who claims to be persecuted against as having no troubles and waving it aside like a pesky fly that isn't worth your time. For example, a Christian woman working in a British Airport was told she could not wear her cross at work or she would be fired, the case went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights were Britain was found in violation of the woman's religious rights (I remind you that the British Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Airport). In many countries Christians are raped, executed, burned, and forced into conversion by the blade of a knife or the barrel of a gun. Persecution happens at varying degrees of severity in different places. Is there persecution against the "majority"? yes, does this mean persecution against the minority has disappeared? no. So I think that we should really stop saying "meh, persecution complex" and start looking at WHY people feel this way and begin to try and repair race relations because it is now clear that if the current system is designed to repair race relations over time, it is having the exact opposite effect.

[God Kefka]

hardly... I mean it did turn out that almost all the identified spies in America of World War I were ethnically German.

So the US decided not have this stuff happen again in round 2...

See sometimes the practical thing to do in a time of war isn't what's most politically correct...

I see you have embraced National Socialist thought. Would you like to join the NSDAP?

I didn't realize the NSDAP and National Socialist thought were germanophobic...

but they say you learn something new every day...

[God Kefka]

hardly... I mean it did turn out that almost all the identified spies in America of World War I were ethnically German.

So the US decided not have this stuff happen again in round 2...

See sometimes the practical thing to do in a time of war isn't what's most politically correct...

Regardless if there were a lot of spies of German ancestry, it is hypocritically un-american to lock away a whole group of people because of their ancestry.

It also helped the US government in that it now had access to all these people's belongings, including land, bank accounts and valuable heirlooms. Seems pretty convenient to me.

Actually, it's always been the American way to deprive marginalized groups of their lands, rights and benefits when it suited the interests of the elite.

They did it to the Indians, the Mexicans, and even as the war was being fought there was systemic discrimination and violence against blacks.

Now what's UNIQUE about the American way of oppressing minorities is that they love to do it in public and in the open while also publicly announcing their moral superiority. Who else would have the shamelessness to fight a war to liberate themselves from the British to continue to enslave blacks and Indians? who else would have the shamelessness of claiming to be fighting for freedom in the Middle East while invading and oppressing entire countries?

So i guess they felt they could discriminate just a little bit more if it could help achieve a practical outcome (minimize odds of being spied upon). After all, when the page is already black, one more drop of black ink won't be noticeable or make a real difference in how it looks as a whole.

[God Kefka]

Ironically, isn't that perhaps MORE racist than the WWII internment policies?

Now every person by virtue of skin color must be held accountable for everything his race has done not only in the present but also in the past...

Nobody is saying that we should be held accountable, I'm saying we should remember and feel remorse. No, it isn't racist more racist that you should have to remember than it was for them to have their belongings forcefully removed and moved across the country against their will. Jesus Christ.

There's no practical and pressing imperative for the course of action you are suggesting. There was for the interment...

[British Prussia]

Regardless if there were a lot of spies of German ancestry, it is hypocritically un-american to lock away a whole group of people because of their ancestry.

It also helped the US government in that it now had access to all these people's belongings, including land, bank accounts and valuable heirlooms. Seems pretty convenient to me.

Actually, it's always been the American way to deprive marginalized groups of their lands, rights and benefits when it suited the interests of the elite.

They did it to the Indians, the Mexicans, and even as the war was being fought there was systemic discrimination and violence against blacks.

Now what's UNIQUE about the American way of oppressing minorities is that they love to do it in public and in the open while also publicly announcing their moral superiority. Who else would have the shamelessness to fight a war to liberate themselves from the British to continue to enslave blacks and Indians? who else would have the shamelessness of claiming to be fighting for freedom in the Middle East while invading and oppressing entire countries?

So i guess they felt they could discriminate just a little bit more if it could help achieve a practical outcome (minimize odds of being spied upon). After all, when the page is already black, one more drop of black ink won't be noticeable or make a real difference in how it looks as a whole.

Liberate themselves? It was more of an extreme form of tax evasion, if you ask me...

[Euronion]

Ironically, isn't that perhaps MORE racist than the WWII internment policies?

Now every person by virtue of skin color must be held accountable for everything his race has done not only in the present but also in the past...

Nobody is saying that we should be held accountable, I'm saying we should remember and feel remorse. No, it isn't racist more racist that you should have to remember than it was for them to have their belongings forcefully removed and moved across the country against their will. Jesus Christ.

I completely and wholly disagree. Not about the remembering part, but about the idea that all white people should carry some kind of white man's burden (definitely intended to make that reference) that simply because we share melanin levels consistent with inhabiting the European and Northern Asian continents that somehow we carry some kind of white people memory and white people legacy and that binds us all together. I can't speak for you or any other white person, but my ancestors were farmers in Germany who emigrated to Portugal in the 13th Century and lived there as fishermen until they came to American and worked as factory workers and farmers. I'm not descended from anyone who had any kind of power, I'm not descended from any noble family, any political family, or royal dynasty, I should not be made to feel any kind of remorse or regret for the actions of white people anymore than a Mexican should feel remorse and regret for the actions of Fidel Castro. I played no part in the persecution of people and neither did my ancestors.

[Russadonia]

Your statement is not entirely represented of the truth because it manages to erase persecution that does often exist, just asked James Byrd, Jr., or Matthew Shepard. I do agree that most persecution is imagined or perceived, especially by whites and Christians, but we have so far failed to examine why a minority may perceive themselves as persecuted, which is the result of a history of persecution on the part of straight, white, Christians.

I'm not suggesting that persecution does not exist, but I am saying that the outrage is unjustified. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude, that you are being persecuted against for your skin color if you are white. Allow me to demonstrate how someone could come to believe this from their own experiences (everything below are things that have taken place at my school in the last four years)

Colleges exclude you from scholarships for being white, when colleges give free stuff to people who are nonwhite, when tests have explicit sections on them where you fill in certain bubbles to indicate whether you are a certain ethnicity to apply to a certain scholarship (My PSAT had a special box for African Americans who wanted to apply for the Negro College Fund) yet there are no sections for whites, rich or poor, no matter what country you come from. Combine this with the fact that the "safe space" idea in schools is ruthlessly enforced (at least in my area) except in cases where teachers and students decide to bash, slander, and otherwise defame any person of light complexion for the acts of their ancestors. I've had teachers stop in the hallways to give referrals to students for using terms such as "fag," and rightfully so, yet I see them calmly walk by while groups of students blame the troubles of the entire world on white people. When it is considered okay to have a BET, a Black Student Union, a Latinos Unidos, and special award nights for nonwhites but then prevent a white student group from forming an "English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh Club" (again something that happened at my school) and refuse the proposal that there be award nights for people of all types of cultural backgrounds, not on skin color (again, happened at my school) you have certain public school classes with quotas for "people of color" (my school) you have teachers supporting the idea that all white people are privileged no matter their situation, and when you dane to suggest that things may not be the way that they would have you believe, that perhaps white people aren't always privileged, that perhaps there is a little racism going in your direction or a little religious hate coming towards Christians (Christian shaming definitely takes place at my school), then you are told that you are wrong, you are told to sit down, and you are told it is time to move on to another topic.

Given these circumstances, as an average American, you could probably come to the conclusion that the system is working against you for merely being white and possibly Christian. It is perfectly human and perfectly reasonable to assume such things, in fact, one could argue it's evolutionarily built into us for good measure. If you could perceive that a group of people around you and more powerful than you were working against you, it was probably a good idea to leave and go somewhere more friendly to you, some Jews realized this before the Holocaust, some Christians realized this before the Syrian Civil War and the Arab Spring. I think it is foolish to dismiss any group who claims to be persecuted against as having no troubles and waving it aside like a pesky fly that isn't worth your time. For example, a Christian woman working in a British Airport was told she could not wear her cross at work or she would be fired, the case went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights were Britain was found in violation of the woman's religious rights (I remind you that the British Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Airport). In many countries Christians are raped, executed, burned, and forced into conversion by the blade of a knife or the barrel of a gun. Persecution happens at varying degrees of severity in different places. Is there persecution against the "majority"? yes, does this mean persecution against the minority has disappeared? no. So I think that we should really stop saying "meh, persecution complex" and start looking at WHY people feel this way and begin to try and repair race relations because it is now clear that if the current system is designed to repair race relations over time, it is having the exact opposite effect.

Seriously, I hear this stuff all the time. I don't agree.

I am white and I received several scholarships to pay for my school, hell, I studied in Russia on full scholarship courtesy the State of Texas. The reason why race-exclusive scholarships for non-whites exist is because historically, non-whites do not have equal access to opportunities and funding that whites do. Poverty disproportionately affects blacks and Hispanics and these programs are meant to fill the gap, otherwise they would not have access to higher education and such. White privilege does exist regardless of situation because race cannot be hidden. A white man may be poor, but he still has a better chance of success in this country because of his race. Whites don't need white identity clubs because most clubs are still white clubs, dominated by whites and controlled by whites. The purpose of identity clubs is to give minorities a place to be free of unfair expectations placed on them by whites where they can themselves succeed without being held down by whites, whether the whites do it unconsciously or not.

Christians are not persecuted against. I will always feel this notion is ridiculous. Just because you get told to stop bullying the gay kid does not mean you are being persecuted against.

[Russadonia]

Regardless if there were a lot of spies of German ancestry, it is hypocritically un-american to lock away a whole group of people because of their ancestry.

It also helped the US government in that it now had access to all these people's belongings, including land, bank accounts and valuable heirlooms. Seems pretty convenient to me.

Actually, it's always been the American way to deprive marginalized groups of their lands, rights and benefits when it suited the interests of the elite.

They did it to the Indians, the Mexicans, and even as the war was being fought there was systemic discrimination and violence against blacks.

Now what's UNIQUE about the American way of oppressing minorities is that they love to do it in public and in the open while also publicly announcing their moral superiority. Who else would have the shamelessness to fight a war to liberate themselves from the British to continue to enslave blacks and Indians? who else would have the shamelessness of claiming to be fighting for freedom in the Middle East while invading and oppressing entire countries?

So i guess they felt they could discriminate just a little bit more if it could help achieve a practical outcome (minimize odds of being spied upon). After all, when the page is already black, one more drop of black ink won't be noticeable or make a real difference in how it looks as a whole.

Ummm....you just proved my point, so, uhh, thanks.

It does seem that you do not understand that American ideals are completely different from their actions. I'd point you in the direction of the nearest anthropology class.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Unless you participated in or supported the internment camps, you don't need to feel guilty.

Why not? It is our collective ideals as a nation (which was at the time largely based on the ideals of whites) which led to this. That guilt is one of the factors which keep history from repeating itself. No one is saying you are directly responsible, but white people as a whole are, and we need to realize this, acknowledge, and try to correct society.

By holding the responsible parties accountable and not following in their footsteps, not by walking around with a bunch of racial guilt lodged in our heads. White people as a whole aren't responsible for jack shit. White people aren't some kind of hivemind conspiracy.

The US government as an institution is responsible for its actions, which is why it paid reparations for the internment camps. Unlike the white race, the US government is a clearly defined entity made up of members who chose to be part of it, who have some control over each other's actions, and have been organized to serve a common purpose. They might not always do a great job of working together or agreeing on what their purpose is, but they all have joined an institution which has its own identity, its own power, and its own responsibilities beyond those of its individual members. White people do not choose to be white, do not have any special means of controlling the actions of other white people, and do not have any race-wide organization or shared purpose.