Should military service (or related service) be required?

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

Yes, but both Vietnam and WWII both involved "get your butt over there shooting some people" and no other options unless you were an engineer or a doctor. In a scenario in which you have a lot more freedom and options within required service, where is the civil instability?

Public opinion and mass protests against Vietnam can be traced back as early as 1963, after the Peace Corps was established. So, again: US involvement in Vietnam.

But the draft did not allow the Peace Corps as an alternative.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

It builds discipline and perseverance, adds a sense of being part of a nation and the civil duties that go along with it, it improves diplomacy and saves the lives of people living in poverty. The benefits would seem to outweigh the costs.

Only if they want to do it, otherwise it'll have the opposite effect.

You're suggesting they will be rebellious? Yeah, we'll see how long that will last in the military or the Peace Corps.

[Oaledonia]

This ultimately depends on the situation the nation is in:
Israel? Absolutely as the nation's existence depends on it.
A nation like France, Canada, or New Zealand? No, it's unnecessary and would be ultimately unwanted.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Only if they want to do it, otherwise it'll have the opposite effect.

You're suggesting they will be rebellious? Yeah, we'll see how long that will last in the military or the Peace Corps.

Oh, so they'll just perform poorly as they make it look like they're doing things to avoid punishment.
That's much better.

[Vetalia]

You're suggesting they will be rebellious? Yeah, we'll see how long that will last in the military or the Peace Corps.

There are plenty of ways to be disruptive and undisciplined without being rebellious...not to mention said sentiments will outlast their time in the service. I would say a lot of people aren't going to be too keen on being forced to piss away two years of their life doing national service, if they wanted to they would have done so already.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

You're suggesting they will be rebellious? Yeah, we'll see how long that will last in the military or the Peace Corps.

Oh, so they'll just perform poorly as they make it look like they're doing things to avoid punishment.
That's much better.

Well then that's an issue of not enough supervision. I honestly suspect that if everyone's doing it, and you have a reasonable amount of freedom in where you go and what you do, that a sense of civic responsibility will ride over any "but I don't want to work!!!"

[Vetalia]

Well then that's an issue of not enough supervision. I honestly suspect that if everyone's doing it, and you have a reasonable amount of freedom in where you go and what you do, that a sense of civic responsibility will ride over any "but I don't want to work!!!"

I'd really rather work in my chosen field in a job of my choosing.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

You're suggesting they will be rebellious? Yeah, we'll see how long that will last in the military or the Peace Corps.

There are plenty of ways to be disruptive and undisciplined without being rebellious...not to mention said sentiments will outlast their time in the service. I would say a lot of people aren't going to be too keen on being forced to piss away two years of their life doing national service, if they wanted to they would have done so already.

Surely though they will be aware of the fact that they are actively making the lives of other people better. How can you distribute aid to impoverished people and then walk away going "well F*CK THAT!" ?

[Oaledonia]

Oh, so they'll just perform poorly as they make it look like they're doing things to avoid punishment.
That's much better.

Well then that's an issue of not enough supervision. I honestly suspect that if everyone's doing it, and you have a reasonable amount of freedom in where you go and what you do, that a sense of civic responsibility will ride over any "but I don't want to work!!!"

Iraq? Russia in WW2? Put as much supervision as you want but a volunteer military is more likely motivated, better equipped, and generally better trained. Again, this differs depending on the nation's political situation.

[Vetalia]

Surely though they will be aware of the fact that they are actively making the lives of other people better. How can you distribute aid to impoverished people and then walk away going "well F*CK THAT!" ?

Easy, really. I'd certainly rather work in my chosen field doing something I enjoy than go over to some Third World country to distribute aid.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Oh, so they'll just perform poorly as they make it look like they're doing things to avoid punishment.
That's much better.

Well then that's an issue of not enough supervision. I honestly suspect that if everyone's doing it, and you have a reasonable amount of freedom in where you go and what you do, that a sense of civic responsibility will ride over any "but I don't want to work!!!"

Except it's not about not wanting to work.

It's about them not wanting to work for the Military or the Peace Corps.

Moral arguments aside, conscripted servicemen are less motivated, less effective, and a poor investment as they will be highly unlikely to reenlist.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

Well then that's an issue of not enough supervision. I honestly suspect that if everyone's doing it, and you have a reasonable amount of freedom in where you go and what you do, that a sense of civic responsibility will ride over any "but I don't want to work!!!"

Iraq? Russia in WW2? Put as much supervision as you want but a volunteer military is more likely motivated, better equipped, and generally better trained. Again, this differs depending on the nation's political situation.

It mostly will still be a volunteer service. How many people will choose the military over Peace Corps or AmeriCorps that wouldn't have gone into the military anyway?

[Occupied Deutschland]

There are plenty of ways to be disruptive and undisciplined without being rebellious...not to mention said sentiments will outlast their time in the service. I would say a lot of people aren't going to be too keen on being forced to piss away two years of their life doing national service, if they wanted to they would have done so already.

Surely though they will be aware of the fact that they are actively making the lives of other people better. How can you distribute aid to impoverished people and then walk away going "well F*CK THAT!" ?

Because they won't see distributing aid.
They'll see "Move this pallet of stuff from this point to that point."

Only a handful of people would distribute aid and see the results of 'their' work. The vast majority will see military/peace-corps bureaucracy and shipping.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

Surely though they will be aware of the fact that they are actively making the lives of other people better. How can you distribute aid to impoverished people and then walk away going "well F*CK THAT!" ?

Easy, really. I'd certainly rather work in my chosen field doing something I enjoy than go over to some Third World country to distribute aid.

I'm sure you rather would, but I'm just saying it will be hard for you to be particularly resentful after feeding starving people in Africa.

[Regnum Dominae]

There are plenty of ways to be disruptive and undisciplined without being rebellious...not to mention said sentiments will outlast their time in the service. I would say a lot of people aren't going to be too keen on being forced to piss away two years of their life doing national service, if they wanted to they would have done so already.

Surely though they will be aware of the fact that they are actively making the lives of other people better. How can you distribute aid to impoverished people and then walk away going "well F*CK THAT!" ?

Because different people have different interests, and there is more to life than distributing aid to starving Africans.

Seriously, fuck this totalitarian bullshit.

[Vetalia]

I'm sure you rather would, but I'm just saying it will be hard for you to be particularly resentful after feeding starving people in Africa.

I'm being forced to do something I don't want to do, of course I'll be resentful.

[Oaledonia]

Iraq? Russia in WW2? Put as much supervision as you want but a volunteer military is more likely motivated, better equipped, and generally better trained. Again, this differs depending on the nation's political situation.

It mostly will still be a volunteer service. How many people will choose the military over Peace Corps or AmeriCorps that wouldn't have gone into the military anyway?

That's still an issue for funding and logistics, seeing as now you're straining the already outstretched economy on more equipment, training, and payment to these conscripts.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

Surely though they will be aware of the fact that they are actively making the lives of other people better. How can you distribute aid to impoverished people and then walk away going "well F*CK THAT!" ?

Because they won't see distributing aid.
They'll see "Move this pallet of stuff from this point to that point."

Only a handful of people would distribute aid and see the results of 'their' work. The vast majority will see military/peace-corps bureaucracy and shipping.

I think that's a error in one method of the system that could be fixed. And there's several ways to fix it.

(A) - Allow people the opportunity to switch jobs regularly if they wish.

(B) - Make aid distribution a required job that each person takes part in at least once a month.

(C) - Have "field trip" days to see the lives of the people in the respective country or impoverished area.

(D) - All of the above.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

It mostly will still be a volunteer service. How many people will choose the military over Peace Corps or AmeriCorps that wouldn't have gone into the military anyway?

That's still an issue for funding and logistics, seeing as now you're straining the already outstretched economy on more equipment, training, and payment to these conscripts.

That's very faulty logic. Spending more money on all of that equipment, training, and payment will only grow the economy, not strain it. There is zero reason why the economy would be strained by spending that money.

[Regnum Dominae]

Seriously, how is conscription, military or otherwise, anything but slavery?

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

I'm sure you rather would, but I'm just saying it will be hard for you to be particularly resentful after feeding starving people in Africa.

I'm being forced to do something I don't want to do, of course I'll be resentful.

We're forced to do or not do a lot of things. That's why we have laws. Paying taxes and education are both compulsory at some level in the US, and yet the benefits outweigh the costs.

[Regnum Dominae]

That's still an issue for funding and logistics, seeing as now you're straining the already outstretched economy on more equipment, training, and payment to these conscripts.

That's very faulty logic. Spending more money on all of that equipment, training, and payment will only grow the economy, not strain it. There is zero reason why the economy would be strained by spending that money.

There are many other ways to grow the economy that do not require enslaving individuals to the state.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

Seriously, how is conscription, military or otherwise, anything but slavery?

By that logic, compulsory education is slavery as well.

[Vetalia]

We're forced to do or not do a lot of things. That's why we have laws. Paying taxes and education are both compulsory at some level in the US, and yet the benefits outweigh the costs.

And people become resentful against paying taxes if they feel they're too onerous, too unfair, or they aren't getting benefits commensurate to the taxes paid. Same with education.

[Post-Keynesian Economics]

That's very faulty logic. Spending more money on all of that equipment, training, and payment will only grow the economy, not strain it. There is zero reason why the economy would be strained by spending that money.

There are many other ways to grow the economy that do not require enslaving individuals to the state.

It isn't slavery when you get paid and you have a significant amount of freedom in choosing exactly what you do.