Religion, Good or Bad?

[Agripa Resurgent]

What you have to get through your head is atheists have long made it a habit to make religion the reason that all of the world's troubles have occurred. By your own logic, religion wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform. If you're going to say that atheism wasn't the reason behind the Communist purges in the Soviet Union, then you cannot say that religion was the reason behind the Inquisition or the Crusades..it was simply about greed, power & territory.

You're generalizing things. Even if the Crusades were just a political ploy by Europe, it still took religion to convince Europeans to fight in them. I never said it was religion that caused the Stalin regime to kill millions, all I said is that it wasn't atheism. The Inquisition was a power grab, I'll give you that. Also, we don't blame everything on religion. But we tend to find that most of history revolves around it, including the bad stuff.

Well if you insist on attributing the bad stuff, then we're going to have to claim the good stuff too. Sorry fellas.

[Sun Wukong]

All I ever said in this line of discussion was that it didn't help. So again with the straw men.

You can't keep claiming Straw Man when I'm simply reversing your logic on you.

Hence, advice you should live by.

Except you're not. Someone made the point that region helped in this regard and I said they were incorrect. It does not help.

That is the totality of my argument. You're not arguing with me if you're not arguing with that. And you're not arguing with that.

Hence why it's a strawman.

[Fralinia]

You're generalizing things. Even if the Crusades were just a political ploy by Europe, it still took religion to convince Europeans to fight in them. I never said it was religion that caused the Stalin regime to kill millions, all I said is that it wasn't atheism. The Inquisition was a power grab, I'll give you that. Also, we don't blame everything on religion. But we tend to find that most of history revolves around it, including the bad stuff.

Well if you insist on attributing the bad stuff, then we're going to have to claim the good stuff too. Sorry fellas.

Name some good stuff that isn't completely washed out by the horrible stuff. We've got racial hatred for Middle Easterns in America, 9/11, more or less every major terrorist attack in the West since 9/11, Armenian genocide, various other assorted genocide, misogyny...

[Agripa Resurgent]

Ok, just to clarify here. Rich=Atheist Poor=Religious?

There is literally so much evidence to disprove that statement, and honestly, I would suggest deleting that.

You love making things black and white, don't you? The equal sign has no place here. The statement was that, statistically, richer people tend to be less religious than poor people. Stop taking everything o the extreme.

it's the point when he ties the connections of Poor->Religious->Criminal Rich->Atheist->Not Criminal.

If you make moronic statements, I'm going to call you on them. Don't like it? Don't post them.

[Sun Wukong]

You love making things black and white, don't you? The equal sign has no place here. The statement was that, statistically, richer people tend to be less religious than poor people. Stop taking everything o the extreme.

it's the point when he ties the connections of Poor->Religious->Criminal Rich->Atheist->Not Criminal.

If you make moronic statements, I'm going to call you on them. Don't like it? Don't post them.

Right. Other people are moronic because you can't grasp demography.

[Fralinia]

You love making things black and white, don't you? The equal sign has no place here. The statement was that, statistically, richer people tend to be less religious than poor people. Stop taking everything o the extreme.

it's the point when he ties the connections of Poor->Religious->Criminal Rich->Atheist->Not Criminal.

If you make moronic statements, I'm going to call you on them. Don't like it? Don't post them.

Thank you for ignoring what I said, now please read the post and don't just repeat what you said this time in different words.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Well if you insist on attributing the bad stuff, then we're going to have to claim the good stuff too. Sorry fellas.

Name some good stuff that isn't completely washed out by the horrible stuff. We've got racial hatred for Middle Easterns in America, 9/11, more or less every major terrorist attack in the West since 9/11, Armenian genocide, various other assorted genocide, misogyny...

Uhhh, all of it. Obviously.

[Fralinia]

Name some good stuff that isn't completely washed out by the horrible stuff. We've got racial hatred for Middle Easterns in America, 9/11, more or less every major terrorist attack in the West since 9/11, Armenian genocide, various other assorted genocide, misogyny...

Uhhh, all of it. Obviously.

Let's try this again.
Name specific good things that can nullify the above list, and these good things have to be caused by religion or its manipulation.

[L Ron Cupboard]

I think if all the time wasted teaching religion in schools over the last century, had instead been devoted to teaching rational thinking, we would be in a much better world.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Some people will always break the rules, but religion provides a stopgap. The idea that an all powerful God is always watching and will punish you for your sins will prevent crime. Not all crime, but it will prevent a lot of it.

Interesting thing about people who do bad things: most of them find a way to convince themselves what they're doing isn't actually bad. If anything a belief in god makes that worse.

Actually this was your initial statement on the matte. You stated your belief that a belief in god makes people more likely to do bad things. So yes, if you want to claim that the atheists in Sweden are evidence that life with out God does not make people because murderers, then I'm going to use the other half of Sweden as evidence that you're wrong.

So yes, Sun Wukong, I am reversing your logic on you.

[Agripa Resurgent]

I think if all the time wasted teaching religion in schools over the last century, had instead been devoted to teaching rational thinking, we would be in a much better world.

And yet no religious text is being taught in schools, yet our students are getting progressively dumber. Your logic fails you.

[Fralinia]

I think if all the time wasted teaching religion in schools over the last century, had instead been devoted to teaching rational thinking, we would be in a much better world.

And yet no religious text is being taught in schools, yet our students are getting progressively dumber. Your logic fails you.

Correlation=/=Causation

[L Ron Cupboard]

I think if all the time wasted teaching religion in schools over the last century, had instead been devoted to teaching rational thinking, we would be in a much better world.

And yet no religious text is being taught in schools, yet our students are getting progressively dumber. Your logic fails you.

Are you under the impression that yours' is the only school system in the world?

[Agripa Resurgent]

Uhhh, all of it. Obviously.

Let's try this again.
Name specific good things that can nullify the above list, and these good things have to be caused by religion or its manipulation.

Salvation Army
Christian Children’s Fund
St. Jude’s Hospital
Habitat For Humanity International
Intercristo
Promise Keepers
World Relief
Remuda (Eating Disorder help)
Christian Aid Canada
Christian Aid USA
International Needs
International Prison Ministry
The YMCA
Outreach programs conducted by Christian ministries around the world
Advancement of science under the Islamic Scholars
The preservation of written knowledge during the dark ages
The spread of education throughout the world
Nicholas Copernicus' contribution to science
Sir Francis Bacon's contribution to science
Galileo's contribution to science
Rene Descartes, a famous Christian philosopher
and dozens others.
do I need to keep going? Or perhaps the freeing of the slaves in the United States by Christian abolitionists?

[Agripa Resurgent]

And yet no religious text is being taught in schools, yet our students are getting progressively dumber. Your logic fails you.

Correlation=/=Causation

Take the time to police your own people

[Agripa Resurgent]

it's the point when he ties the connections of Poor->Religious->Criminal Rich->Atheist->Not Criminal.

If you make moronic statements, I'm going to call you on them. Don't like it? Don't post them.

Right. Other people are moronic because you can't grasp demography.

Correlation=/=Causation

[Fralinia]

Let's try this again.
Name specific good things that can nullify the above list, and these good things have to be caused by religion or its manipulation.

Salvation Army
Christian Children’s Fund
St. Jude’s Hospital
Habitat For Humanity International
Intercristo
Promise Keepers
World Relief
Remuda (Eating Disorder help)
Christian Aid Canada
Christian Aid USA
International Needs
International Prison Ministry
The YMCA
Outreach programs conducted by Christian ministries around the world
Advancement of science under the Islamic Scholars
The preservation of written knowledge during the dark ages
The spread of education throughout the world
Nicholas Copernicus' contribution to science
Sir Francis Bacon's contribution to science
Galileo's contribution to science
Rene Descartes, a famous Christian philosopher
and dozens others.
do I need to keep going? Or perhaps the freeing of the slaves in the United States by Christian abolitionists?

Galileo and Copernicus's contributions to science? The ones religion did their best to destroy all evidence of? Not remotely.

Other than that, this is a good list. That is why my opinion on the matter is that religion is neither intrinsically evil or good, but rather that it can be easily swayed to the one side or the other. Look at all the horrible stuff it did, look at all the amazing things it's doing, it isn't good or bad, it just is.

However, that does not mean we get to act like it's all unicorns and rainbows. Some pretty messed up stuff gets done in the name of God. Religious people like to pretend it never happened.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Salvation Army
Christian Children’s Fund
St. Jude’s Hospital
Habitat For Humanity International
Intercristo
Promise Keepers
World Relief
Remuda (Eating Disorder help)
Christian Aid Canada
Christian Aid USA
International Needs
International Prison Ministry
The YMCA
Outreach programs conducted by Christian ministries around the world
Advancement of science under the Islamic Scholars
The preservation of written knowledge during the dark ages
The spread of education throughout the world
Nicholas Copernicus' contribution to science
Sir Francis Bacon's contribution to science
Galileo's contribution to science
Rene Descartes, a famous Christian philosopher
and dozens others.
do I need to keep going? Or perhaps the freeing of the slaves in the United States by Christian abolitionists?

Galileo and Copernicus's contributions to science? The ones religion did their best to destroy all evidence of? Not remotely.

Other than that, this is a good list. That is why my opinion on the matter is that religion is neither intrinsically evil or good, but rather that it can be easily swayed to the one side or the other. Look at all the horrible stuff it did, look at all the amazing things it's doing, it isn't good or bad, it just is.

However, that does not mean we get to act like it's all unicorns and rainbows. Some pretty messed up stuff gets done in the name of God. Religious people like to pretend it never happened.

I think that might be a flawed view. We're constantly reminded of the atrocities that have been committed in our history. But alas, it's 4 am and once again the internet has kept me awake far longer than it should have. G'night folks.

[Limborg]

Ugh. Here comes the people that say "religion has killed so many people", when atheismmessed up/faked Marxism, (U.S.S.R.,PRC,Pol pot,) has killed just as many.

Fixed.

Fixed properly.

[Limborg]

My personall opinion is that religion is good, at least on a small scale.

On a large scale religions can indeed get bad, but in the end the good things can make up for the wrong ones.

[Caninope]

I'd say religion does more harm then good. For centuries religion has held back the progress of science, understanding, and advancement.

I'd like to see this expanded upon, given that it was only because of Christian monasteries and Catholic institutions that Roman knowledge was preserved in the West during the "Dark Ages" (which is a misleading term to begin with).

[Maohia]

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWESOME!

[Old Tyrannia]

Religion is essentially a good thing. Like any cause or philosophy, however, throughout history it has been warped and bent to the will of people seeking to use it for their own purposes, purposes which many would classify as "evil."

[Maohia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTJnjLkbk8

Does that count as a religion?

[Caninope]

Galileo and Copernicus's contributions to science? The ones religion did their best to destroy all evidence of? Not remotely.

So here's the thing. The Catholic Church never directly persecuted Copernicus because he died shortly after publishing his work. Religion didn't exactly destroy his work until later, and by then it was no longer political but rather religious.

And that brings us to Galileo, the reason why it became political. Galileo was a great scientist. He was also a dick. At first, some Jesuit scientists and astronomers were open to his ideas (and they even repeated his findings, part of the modern scientific method). However, Galileo was openly dismissive of some of the skeptics, and was in the midst of a feud with a Jesuit over who discovered sunspots, earning him enemies.

The real persecution of Galileo came after 1632, where Galileo openly mocked Pope Urban VIII (someone who had given him considerable autonomy and had allowed him to discuss Copernican ideas) in Dialogues. Urban was also facing pressure from within the Vatican. In other words, the heliocentric persecution was largely, if not wholly, political.