Religion, Good or Bad?

[Sun Wukong]

Interesting thing about people who do bad things: most of them find a way to convince themselves what they're doing isn't actually bad. If anything a belief in god makes that worse.

As opposed to those who believe in no judgement whatsoever? Riiiiight.

Goddess Sweden doesn't seem to have collapsed into Mad Max-esque existence.

[Agripa Resurgent]

As opposed to those who believe in no judgement whatsoever? Riiiiight.

Goddess Sweden doesn't seem to have collapsed into Mad Max-esque existence.

I can only assume you were trying to say "Godless Sweden". In that case I would reference you to the Eurobarometer Poll of 2012 for Sweden which found the following results for their population:

Protestants 41%
Orthodox 1%
Catholics 2%
Other Christian 9%
Buddhist 1%
Other 3%
Atheist 13%
Agnostics 30%

Sweden is hardly "Godless"". They certainly aren't atheist.

[Grantica]

So you're going to completely ignore all of the good that is done by religion simply because it doesn't land on your radar? Hospitals, relief efforts, the daily good-will that people do in the name of their religions, and you're going to discredit all of that, and then go even farther and try to claim that most scientific achievements were accomplished trying to bring down the church? That's laughable, especially considering how many great scientific achievements were accomplished by noted Christians.

I mean, I agree that religion has many goods but then again you end up with extremists who turn into terrorists. Its really a pros and cons thing.

Cool. So let's say that atheism is a pros and cons thing. Atheism allegedly has many goods (like...?) and yet sometimes atheists get all extremist and paranoid and start killing religious people.

Now you just have to tally up the good and evil...

(And individually for each religion, I'd prefer. Christians, Muslims, and Jews shouldn't be lumped together, for instance, since the three religions don't recognize each other as valid.)

Of course, it's not really that simple, is it? We should really be looking for truth.

[Agripa Resurgent]

As opposed to those who believe in no judgement whatsoever? Riiiiight.

Goddess Sweden doesn't seem to have collapsed into Mad Max-esque existence.

And contrary to your assertion, Sweden, which is predominantly Christian, hasn't devolved into a nation of self-assured serial killers.

[Empire of Narnia]

-Empire of Narnia
-North Korea (compared to other nations with a similar size and GDP. Juche is basically a religion)
-Vatican City (the only crimes are committed by foreigners)
-Saudi Arabia (compared to similar countries)

You've just cited as an example of a nation with a comparably low crime rate an Orwellian state in which everyone is always in some way guilty.

The Vatican city cannot be taken seriously as an example for obvious reasons.

What similar country are you comparing Saudi Arabia to?

What's wrong with the Vatican City?

Saudi Arabia could be compared to Syria, or Somalia. Saudi Arabia has the disadvantage of being a popular tourist destination however which brings in a lot of foreigners. Most of the criminals in Saudi Arabia are foreign workers or visitors.

[Fralinia]

Goddess Sweden doesn't seem to have collapsed into Mad Max-esque existence.

I can only assume you were trying to say "Godless Sweden". In that case I would reference you to the Eurobarometer Poll of 2012 for Sweden which found the following results for their population:

Protestants 41%
Orthodox 1%
Catholics 2%
Other Christian 9%
Buddhist 1%
Other 3%
Atheist 13%
Agnostics 30%

Sweden is hardly "Godless"". They certainly aren't atheist.

According to your figures, nearly half the country either doesn't believe in a God, or can't find sufficient proof to decide either way. Whereas, according to the 1989 Census of the Soviet Union, nearly 4/5s of the population identified as religious.

Rather contradictory conclusions from the same data.

[Grantica]

It has it's ups and downs, but I always feels like it's:
Atheists= religion bad
Anyone of faith= religion good
But from my angle, I believe religion has the power to do good, but that power can be abused by any greedy individual easily.

From my view, I believe true Christianity (the way it was laid out in the New Testament with no additions or subtractions) is wholly good. Generosity, nonviolence, morality, evangelism, love - all good.

Christianity that has been mixed in with people's additions is varyingly bad. Throwing in that God will reward you on earth for your good deeds: Not awful, but does taint the Gospel. Completely reworking it into a legalistic, scary commune that you can't leave and must kill for: really bad.

Atheism and all other religions are neutral at best. Ultimately, they are very, very bad for their adherents.

[Sun Wukong]

You've just cited as an example of a nation with a comparably low crime rate an Orwellian state in which everyone is always in some way guilty.

The Vatican city cannot be taken seriously as an example for obvious reasons.

What similar country are you comparing Saudi Arabia to?

What's wrong with the Vatican City?

Seriously? Aside from having less then a thousand citizens (what other nations are you comparing it to?) experience has shown that the Vatican does not prosecute their own even when they know them to be guilty of a crime.

Saudi Arabia could be compared to Syria, or Somalia. Saudi Arabia has the disadvantage of being a popular tourist destination however which brings in a lot of foreigners. Most of the criminals in Saudi Arabia are foreign workers or visitors.

Saudi Arabia has massively more natural resources than either. It has an enormous tourism bump in its economy as well. The GDP is well above both nations and they are all comparably religious. This does absolutely nothing for your assertion.

[Agripa Resurgent]

I can only assume you were trying to say "Godless Sweden". In that case I would reference you to the Eurobarometer Poll of 2012 for Sweden which found the following results for their population:

Protestants 41%
Orthodox 1%
Catholics 2%
Other Christian 9%
Buddhist 1%
Other 3%
Atheist 13%
Agnostics 30%

Sweden is hardly "Godless"". They certainly aren't atheist.

According to your figures, nearly half the country either doesn't believe in a God, or can't find sufficient proof to decide either way. Whereas, according to the 1989 Census of the Soviet Union, nearly 4/5s of the population identified as religious.

Rather contradictory conclusions from the same data.

Stalin died in 1953. Each one of his successor's brought the nation closer and closer back to the West, and the freedoms that went along with it. Yes, shocking I know...they weren't executing millions per year in 1985.

However, it sounds as if you're suggesting that Sun Wukong is correct in labeling Sweden as 'godless' when over half of their popuation believes in God.

[Grantica]

I can only assume you were trying to say "Godless Sweden". In that case I would reference you to the Eurobarometer Poll of 2012 for Sweden which found the following results for their population:

Protestants 41%
Orthodox 1%
Catholics 2%
Other Christian 9%
Buddhist 1%
Other 3%
Atheist 13%
Agnostics 30%

Sweden is hardly "Godless"". They certainly aren't atheist.

According to your figures, nearly half the country either doesn't believe in a God, or can't find sufficient proof to decide either way. Whereas, according to the 1989 Census of the Soviet Union, nearly 4/5s of the population identified as religious.

Rather contradictory conclusions from the same data.

He's saying that the country is not Godless, not that it is God-worshipping. Like most western countries, it is pretty much in the middle.

[Sun Wukong]

Goddess Sweden doesn't seem to have collapsed into Mad Max-esque existence.

And contrary to your assertion, Sweden, which is predominantly Christian, hasn't devolved into a nation of self-assured serial killers.

Straw men are flammable. You should be careful.

[Agripa Resurgent]

And contrary to your assertion, Sweden, which is predominantly Christian, hasn't devolved into a nation of self-assured serial killers.

Straw men are flammable. You should be careful.

Advice you should live by.

[Fralinia]

According to your figures, nearly half the country either doesn't believe in a God, or can't find sufficient proof to decide either way. Whereas, according to the 1989 Census of the Soviet Union, nearly 4/5s of the population identified as religious.

Rather contradictory conclusions from the same data.

Stalin died in 1953. Each one of his successor's brought the nation closer and closer back to the West, and the freedoms that went along with it. Yes, shocking I know...they weren't execution millions per year in 1985.

However, it sounds as if you're suggesting that Sun Wukong is correct in labeling Sweden as 'godless' when over half of their popuation believes in God.

It isn't godless. But it definitely isn't a pillar of wholesome god-fearing Christianity, either. That was my point.

I am aware Stalin died in 1953, but what you have to get through your head is that Stalin wasn't murdering people because he was atheist. He was murdering them because the Church stood as a way for people to cling to the old system, which weakened the power of the party. Atheism wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform.

[Sun Wukong]

Straw men are flammable. You should be careful.

Advice you should live by.

I am invulnerable even to alchemic fire. But you will note that atheism does not correlate to an increase in violent crime. The opposite is true.

Now correlation is not causation but it does seem a snag in the proposal that people behave better for fear of judgment.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Stalin died in 1953. Each one of his successor's brought the nation closer and closer back to the West, and the freedoms that went along with it. Yes, shocking I know...they weren't execution millions per year in 1985.

However, it sounds as if you're suggesting that Sun Wukong is correct in labeling Sweden as 'godless' when over half of their popuation believes in God.

It isn't godless. But it definitely isn't a pillar of wholesome god-fearing Christianity, either. That was my point.

I am aware Stalin died in 1953, but what you have to get through your head is that Stalin wasn't murdering people because he was atheist. He was murdering them because the Church stood as a way for people to cling to the old system, which weakened the power of the party. Atheism wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform.

What you have to get through your head is atheists have long made it a habit to make religion the reason that all of the world's troubles have occurred. By your own logic, religion wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform. If you're going to say that atheism wasn't the reason behind the Communist purges in the Soviet Union, then you cannot say that religion was the reason behind the Inquisition or the Crusades..it was simply about greed, power & territory.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Advice you should live by.

I am invulnerable even to alchemic fire. But you will note that atheism does not correlate to an increase in violent crime. The opposite is true.

Now correlation is not causation but it does seem a snag in the proposal that people behave better for fear of judgment.

And by your own logic, the other half of Sweden that is religious does not seem to be committing genocides, stifling science or any other malevolent deeds. So, tell me again how religion is bad?

[Maqo]

Advice you should live by.

I am invulnerable even to alchemic fire. But you will note that atheism does not correlate to an increase in violent crime. The opposite is true.

Now correlation is not causation but it does seem a snag in the proposal that people behave better for fear of judgment.

Christianity gives people a convenient way out.
They commit crime... then go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's, take communion, and it's like the crime never happened. God has forgiven them. No need to fear heavenly judgement if you (briefly) repent.

Or it's probably just that religiosity has a strong negative correlation to wealth/education. Higher educated people tend to be more wealthy and tend to be more atheist, and tend to commit less crime because of their wealth rather than religion or lack thereof. Vice-versa for poor/uneducated/religious people.

[Sun Wukong]

It isn't godless. But it definitely isn't a pillar of wholesome god-fearing Christianity, either. That was my point.

I am aware Stalin died in 1953, but what you have to get through your head is that Stalin wasn't murdering people because he was atheist. He was murdering them because the Church stood as a way for people to cling to the old system, which weakened the power of the party. Atheism wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform.

What you have to get through your head is atheists have long made it a habit to make religion the reason that all of the world's troubles have occurred. By your own logic, religion wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform. If you're going to say that atheism wasn't the reason behind the Communist purges in the Soviet Union, then you cannot say that religion was the reason behind the Inquisition or the Crusades..it was simply about greed, power & territory.

Apples and oranges. Atheism was never the reason for these purges in any capacity. Those performing them didn't justify them with atheism. These are Marxist purges.

You're going to have a much harder time saying the same for the Crusades what with all those "deus vults" in the relevant literature.

[Fralinia]

It isn't godless. But it definitely isn't a pillar of wholesome god-fearing Christianity, either. That was my point.

I am aware Stalin died in 1953, but what you have to get through your head is that Stalin wasn't murdering people because he was atheist. He was murdering them because the Church stood as a way for people to cling to the old system, which weakened the power of the party. Atheism wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform.

What you have to get through your head is atheists have long made it a habit to make religion the reason that all of the world's troubles have occurred. By your own logic, religion wasn't the cause, it was just hijacked as a convenient platform. If you're going to say that atheism wasn't the reason behind the Communist purges in the Soviet Union, then you cannot say that religion was the reason behind the Inquisition or the Crusades..it was simply about greed, power & territory.

You're generalizing things. Even if the Crusades were just a political ploy by Europe, it still took religion to convince Europeans to fight in them. I never said it was religion that caused the Stalin regime to kill millions, all I said is that it wasn't atheism. The Inquisition was a power grab, I'll give you that. Also, we don't blame everything on religion. But we tend to find that most of history revolves around it, including the bad stuff.

[Sun Wukong]

I am invulnerable even to alchemic fire. But you will note that atheism does not correlate to an increase in violent crime. The opposite is true.

Now correlation is not causation but it does seem a snag in the proposal that people behave better for fear of judgment.

And by your own logic, the other half of Sweden that is religious does not seem to be committing genocides, stifling science or any other malevolent deeds. So, tell me again how religion is bad?

All I ever said in this line of discussion was that it didn't help. So again with the straw men.

[Agripa Resurgent]

I am invulnerable even to alchemic fire. But you will note that atheism does not correlate to an increase in violent crime. The opposite is true.

Now correlation is not causation but it does seem a snag in the proposal that people behave better for fear of judgment.

Christianity gives people a convenient way out.
They commit crime... then go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's, take communion, and it's like the crime never happened. God has forgiven them. No need to fear heavenly judgement if you (briefly) repent.

Or it's probably just that religiosity has a strong negative correlation to wealth/education. Higher educated people tend to be more wealthy and tend to be more atheist, and tend to commit less crime because of their wealth rather than religion or lack thereof. Vice-versa for poor/uneducated/religious people.

Ok, just to clarify here. Rich=Atheist Poor=Religious?

There is literally so much evidence to disprove that statement, and honestly, I would suggest deleting that.

[Sun Wukong]

I am invulnerable even to alchemic fire. But you will note that atheism does not correlate to an increase in violent crime. The opposite is true.

Now correlation is not causation but it does seem a snag in the proposal that people behave better for fear of judgment.

Christianity gives people a convenient way out.
They commit crime... then go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's, take communion, and it's like the crime never happened. God has forgiven them. No need to fear heavenly judgement if you (briefly) repent.

Or it's probably just that religiosity has a strong negative correlation to wealth/education. Higher educated people tend to be more wealthy and tend to be more atheist, and tend to commit less crime because of their wealth rather than religion or lack thereof. Vice-versa for poor/uneducated/religious people.

The smart money is probably on the second. Though we probably shouldn't discount the first entirely.

[Agripa Resurgent]

And by your own logic, the other half of Sweden that is religious does not seem to be committing genocides, stifling science or any other malevolent deeds. So, tell me again how religion is bad?

All I ever said in this line of discussion was that it didn't help. So again with the straw men.

You can't keep claiming Straw Man when I'm simply reversing your logic on you.

Hence, advice you should live by.

[Sun Wukong]

Christianity gives people a convenient way out.
They commit crime... then go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's, take communion, and it's like the crime never happened. God has forgiven them. No need to fear heavenly judgement if you (briefly) repent.

Or it's probably just that religiosity has a strong negative correlation to wealth/education. Higher educated people tend to be more wealthy and tend to be more atheist, and tend to commit less crime because of their wealth rather than religion or lack thereof. Vice-versa for poor/uneducated/religious people.

Ok, just to clarify here. Rich=Atheist Poor=Religious?

There is literally so much evidence to disprove that statement, and honestly, I would suggest deleting that.

Richer populations trend towards higher percentages of atheism.

[Fralinia]

Christianity gives people a convenient way out.
They commit crime... then go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's, take communion, and it's like the crime never happened. God has forgiven them. No need to fear heavenly judgement if you (briefly) repent.

Or it's probably just that religiosity has a strong negative correlation to wealth/education. Higher educated people tend to be more wealthy and tend to be more atheist, and tend to commit less crime because of their wealth rather than religion or lack thereof. Vice-versa for poor/uneducated/religious people.

Ok, just to clarify here. Rich=Atheist Poor=Religious?

There is literally so much evidence to disprove that statement, and honestly, I would suggest deleting that.

You love making things black and white, don't you? The equal sign has no place here. The statement was that, statistically, richer people tend to be less religious than poor people. Stop taking everything o the extreme.