Religion, Good or Bad?

[Empire of Narnia]

It is good. Religion gives people morals and a consistent set of beliefs. It also gives people a path to heaven.

I'm not saying religion drives people to do evil, but given the amount of awful people who were religious, it's safe to say that religion doesn't prevent evil. And I'm gonna need some proof that Heaven exists if you're going to use it in an argument.

Some people will always break the rules, but religion provides a stopgap. The idea that an all powerful God is always watching and will punish you for your sins will prevent crime. Not all crime, but it will prevent a lot of it.

[Radiatia]

I have no real problem with spirituality, and faith can occasionally make individuals better people, but in terms of organised religion? Well, that's just a manmade system to control and oppress people which expands and consolidates its power by exploiting the fears of the ignorant and uneducated, as well as man's primal and likely irrational urge to connect with something bigger than itself.

Basically, I'm very firmly in the 'religion is bad, no exceptions' category.

[Garrisoni]

Just because a portion of people are over zealous does not make religion bad,it simply means we will always have nuts.Religion is a gateway to Good and Evil.It matters only upon how you interprate it.

[Utceforp]

I'm not saying religion drives people to do evil, but given the amount of awful people who were religious, it's safe to say that religion doesn't prevent evil. And I'm gonna need some proof that Heaven exists if you're going to use it in an argument.

Some people will always break the rules, but religion provides a stopgap. The idea that an all powerful God is always watching and will punish you for your sins will prevent crime. Not all crime, but it will prevent a lot of it.

If that were true, countries hundreds of years ago would have a lot less crimes relative to their population than we do today. Do you have statistics to back that up?

[Sun Wukong]

I'm not saying religion drives people to do evil, but given the amount of awful people who were religious, it's safe to say that religion doesn't prevent evil. And I'm gonna need some proof that Heaven exists if you're going to use it in an argument.

Some people will always break the rules, but religion provides a stopgap. The idea that an all powerful God is always watching and will punish you for your sins will prevent crime. Not all crime, but it will prevent a lot of it.

Interesting thing about people who do bad things: most of them find a way to convince themselves what they're doing isn't actually bad. If anything a belief in god makes that worse.

[Empire of Narnia]

Some people will always break the rules, but religion provides a stopgap. The idea that an all powerful God is always watching and will punish you for your sins will prevent crime. Not all crime, but it will prevent a lot of it.

If that were true, countries hundreds of years ago would have a lot less crimes relative to their population than we do today. Do you have statistics to back that up?

It is not a fair comparison because they had worse technology than nowadays and worse systems of organization. The modern police state and surveillance systems keeps crime down regardless, but communities where faith is important tend to have lower crime rates compared to other areas where other conditions are identical.

[Sun Wukong]

If that were true, countries hundreds of years ago would have a lot less crimes relative to their population than we do today. Do you have statistics to back that up?

It is not a fair comparison because they had worse technology than nowadays and worse systems of organization. The modern police state and surveillance systems keeps crime down regardless, but communities where faith is important tend to have lower crime rates compared to other areas where other conditions are identical.

Cite several examples.

[God Kefka]

There is a complete overlap between religion with superstition, irrationality, and being outdated.

So it's bad...

[Old Vester]

It has it's ups and downs, but I always feels like it's:
Atheists= religion bad
Anyone of faith= religion good
But from my angle, I believe religion has the power to do good, but that power can be abused by any greedy individual easily.

[Grantica]

Ugh. Here comes the people that say "religion has killed so many people", when atheism, (U.S.S.R.,PRC,Pol pot,) has killed just as many.

Well, no.
See, when people are killed from religious persecution, it has to do directly with religion. Stalin didn't kill people because he was atheist, it had nothing to do with religion or lack of it. So, if there was no religion in the world, that would stop all the killing, For Religious reasons. Stalin would still kill people.
Point=Atheism has never killed people, because there is no reason to kill people because of Atheism.
Atheism is not a belief, it isn't anything, just a lack of something. You can not kill for a cause that doesn't exist.

I hope you aren't saying that when an atheist kills someone because that someone is (let's say peacefully) religious that it is still a religious killing and thus the fault of religion. If so, way to go blame the victim.

[Utceforp]

It has it's ups and downs, but I always feels like it's:
Atheists= religion bad
Anyone of faith= religion good
But from my angle, I believe religion has the power to do good, but that power can be abused by any greedy individual easily.

Again, what's the upside? Even if there is a good thing associated with religion, it does not balance out the downsides of people willfully disregarding evidence and a general dislike of change and difference caused and justified by religion.

[Greater Beggnig]

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) 7:9-10

Where are these from?

Matthew, I think. At least for most of them.

[Utceforp]

Well, no.
See, when people are killed from religious persecution, it has to do directly with religion. Stalin didn't kill people because he was atheist, it had nothing to do with religion or lack of it. So, if there was no religion in the world, that would stop all the killing, For Religious reasons. Stalin would still kill people.
Point=Atheism has never killed people, because there is no reason to kill people because of Atheism.
Atheism is not a belief, it isn't anything, just a lack of something. You can not kill for a cause that doesn't exist.

I hope you aren't saying that when an atheist kills someone because that someone is (let's say peacefully) religious that it is still a religious killing and thus the fault of religion. If so, way to go blame the victim.

He's not. And if an atheist killed a religious person, it's not because they're an atheist, but because of other reasons. Name one time in history somebody killed religious people because the killer was atheist and the victims were religious.

[Sun Wukong]

It has it's ups and downs, but I always feels like it's:
Atheists= religion bad
Anyone of faith= religion good
But from my angle, I believe religion has the power to do good, but that power can be abused by any greedy individual easily.

As an immortal monkey who has actually been to heaven and hell = religion bad.

Any deity who requires or desires worship doesn't deserve it.

[Empire of Narnia]

It is not a fair comparison because they had worse technology than nowadays and worse systems of organization. The modern police state and surveillance systems keeps crime down regardless, but communities where faith is important tend to have lower crime rates compared to other areas where other conditions are identical.

Cite several examples.

-Empire of Narnia
-North Korea (compared to other nations with a similar size and GDP. Juche is basically a religion)
-Vatican City (the only crimes are committed by foreigners)
-Saudi Arabia (compared to similar countries)

[UED]

Religion can be used for both good and bad, it can be used to bring hope and give people a reason to live in the darkest times, or be used to gain power and an excuse to exterminate opponents.

[Tribea]

I hope you aren't saying that when an atheist kills someone because that someone is (let's say peacefully) religious that it is still a religious killing and thus the fault of religion. If so, way to go blame the victim.

He's not. And if an atheist killed a religious person, it's not because they're an atheist, but because of other reasons. Name one time in history somebody killed religious people because the killer was atheist and the victims were religious.

Narnia *nods*

[Agripa Resurgent]

Religion as a whole: Good.

Religion, like any other idea can be used to manipulate others. However, to say that it is what makes the world bad, or worse, is absurd. Look at countries that had state-sponsored atheism, or persecuted those who were religious. Does anyone here think that the Soviet Union, Mao's China or any of the other communist dictatorship's were "beacons of freedom and individual liberty?" Nada.

Also, the concept that religion holds backs science is equally unfounded. Religion preserved vast amounts of knowledge that would have been destroyed during the dark ages. It was the Islamic scholars who advanced mathematics and science in the Middle East. Religion does, however, ask that science maintain a degree of humanity, aka, don't clone humans, etc...

People have long tried to make religion the scape goat for all of the world's problems, but the least amount of investigating disproves that assertion.

Westboro Baptist Church, the Middle East, and the fact that you think that cloning people is wrong for some reason are very good arguments for why religion holds back science.

The fact that you think there is nothing wrong with cloning humans is why science needs humanity.

[Grantica]

Here's the deal. Yes, people have done awful things in the name of religion.

However, more deaths and atrocities have been caused when religion played no role or a negligible role. I'd argue that Politics and Nationalism and paranoia and despotism have killed far more people. Religion is also rarely the single motivation. The Crusades on both sides (Catholic and Muslim) had strong political causes as well as religious causes.

I think what people need to realize is that people kill people. And they come up with lots of reasons to do so.

[Sun Wukong]

Cite several examples.

-Empire of Narnia
-North Korea (compared to other nations with a similar size and GDP. Juche is basically a religion)
-Vatican City (the only crimes are committed by foreigners)
-Saudi Arabia (compared to similar countries)

You've just cited as an example of a nation with a comparably low crime rate an Orwellian state in which everyone is always in some way guilty.

The Vatican city cannot be taken seriously as an example for obvious reasons.

What similar country are you comparing Saudi Arabia to?

[Grantica]

I hope you aren't saying that when an atheist kills someone because that someone is (let's say peacefully) religious that it is still a religious killing and thus the fault of religion. If so, way to go blame the victim.

He's not. And if an atheist killed a religious person, it's not because they're an atheist, but because of other reasons. Name one time in history somebody killed religious people because the killer was atheist and the victims were religious.

That makes sense. I disagree, largely because then there would be no reason to specifically persecute Christians and other religious groups in atheistic countries, but I see where he is coming from.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Religion within itself is not bad.


The people who practice the religions are what make them seem bad (or good).

Based off of what I know in history, the people practicing religion have done more harm than good, but at the same time, it challenged people to think. Many people wanted to bring down the Church.

And we thank these people for most of our scientific achievements to date

So you're going to completely ignore all of the good that is done by religion simply because it doesn't land on your radar? Hospitals, relief efforts, the daily good-will that people do in the name of their religions, and you're going to discredit all of that, and then go even farther and try to claim that most scientific achievements were accomplished trying to bring down the church? That's laughable, especially considering how many great scientific achievements were accomplished by noted Christians.

[UED]

Religion within itself is not bad.


The people who practice the religions are what make them seem bad (or good).

Based off of what I know in history, the people practicing religion have done more harm than good, but at the same time, it challenged people to think. Many people wanted to bring down the Church.

And we thank these people for most of our scientific achievements to date

So you're going to completely ignore all of the good that is done by religion simply because it doesn't land on your radar? Hospitals, relief efforts, the daily good-will that people do in the name of their religions, and you're going to discredit all of that, and then go even farther and try to claim that most scientific achievements were accomplished trying to bring down the church? That's laughable, especially considering how many great scientific achievements were accomplished by noted Christians.

I mean, I agree that religion has many goods but then again you end up with extremists who turn into terrorists. Its really a pros and cons thing.

[Agripa Resurgent]

I hope you aren't saying that when an atheist kills someone because that someone is (let's say peacefully) religious that it is still a religious killing and thus the fault of religion. If so, way to go blame the victim.

He's not. And if an atheist killed a religious person, it's not because they're an atheist, but because of other reasons. Name one time in history somebody killed religious people because the killer was atheist and the victims were religious.

Until you get to religious purges, aka, Stalin's Soviet Union. Then yes, people were deported, imprisoned, tortured & executed for their faith. The same persecution persists in atheist-states like North Korea today. Nations which have state-sponsored atheism have always been some of the most non-tolerant towards religion.

[Agripa Resurgent]

Some people will always break the rules, but religion provides a stopgap. The idea that an all powerful God is always watching and will punish you for your sins will prevent crime. Not all crime, but it will prevent a lot of it.

Interesting thing about people who do bad things: most of them find a way to convince themselves what they're doing isn't actually bad. If anything a belief in god makes that worse.

As opposed to those who believe in no judgement whatsoever? Riiiiight.