France's 'Millionaire Tax'

[Frisivisia]

And for the last time, the rightists talk in nonsense analogies so we need one that works slightly better to counter it.

Many who make the argument don't really believe that they are, it's just a way to explain it to "taxation is theft!" folks, who use simplistic analogies as well.

fight stupid oversimplitstic analogies with stupid oversimplitstic analogies, young padawan?

perhaps then... they will understand.

Yeah, that's all well and good until you have people who aren't aware of the joke(?) and then repeat it like it's a good analogy. Why do you want to make everyone's life harder? Why do you hate children?

Because the bastards won't get off my lawn. I've had to drone six this week.

[Geilinor]

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131010/france-tops-europes-table-of-millionaires
France has the most millionaires in Europe. If they were really going to leave, they'd have all gone to Monaco already to evade high taxes. The 75% tax has been discussed for months and they haven't fled.

[The balkens]

Yeah, that's all well and good until you have people who aren't aware of the joke(?) and then repeat it like it's a good analogy. Why do you want to make everyone's life harder? Why do you hate children?

Because the bastards won't get off my lawn. I've had to drone six this week.

joe is the old guy of the future, blowing kids off his lawn with drones.

[Frisivisia]

Because the bastards won't get off my lawn. I've had to drone six this week.

joe is the old guy of the future, blowing kids off his lawn with drones.

Where's my jetpack, Obama?

[Conscentia]

joe is the old guy of the future, blowing kids off his lawn with drones.

Where's my jetpack, Obama?

"Up there, Joe."

[Frisivisia]

Where's my jetpack, Obama?

"Up there, Joe."

You know I can't reach that high, Barack. I may have been your running mate, but I never voted for you!

[New Chalcedon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/30/business/international/french-millionaire-tax-cleared.html?hpw&rref=business

France’s Constitutional Council gave the go-ahead on Sunday to the government’s so-called millionaire tax, to be levied on companies that pay salaries of more than 1 million euros a year.

...

It was originally intended as a 75 percent tax to be paid by high earners on the portion of annual income exceeding €1 million, or roughly $1.37 million, but the council rejected it last year, saying it was unfair. France’s top administrative court later said that 66 percent was the legal maximum for individuals.

The Socialist government has since reworked the tax to levy it on companies instead, raising the ire of entrepreneurs.

Under its new design, which the council found constitutional, the tax will be a 50 percent rate on the portion of wages above €1 million in 2013 and 2014.

Including social contributions, the rate will effectively remain about 75 percent, though the tax will be capped at 5 percent of a company’s turnover.

My take on the matter?

This consistent attack on the wealthy by (many) socialist and other left wing governments seems to only confirm my longstanding belief that the left is only concerned with enlarging the size of government and subverting the sovereignty of the individual. It unfairly places the tax burned on wealthy individuals and companies.

So..........your thought's on France's 'Millionaire Tax'?

I think it more than a tad high, but your recitation of the "facts" leaves something to be desired. The milionaires' tax is an effort to balance the French budget - an effort which also includes radical cuts in public spending, not growth in it. They're already cutting €15 billion in spending (with no planned increases to offset it) and raising less than €3 billion in revenue in an effort to meet the deficit-reduction requirements of the EU (conversely, the UK - which is under no such requirements, not being a Eurozone member, is still running a deficit of 6% of GDP, compared to France's 4.6%). Granted, this is off a very high base (the French public sector is over 50% of the economy, which I consider to be simply silly), but to present this as a left-wing effort to expand the state, when it is in fact an effort to clean up the shambles that the Eurozone slump and Sarkozy's policies made of French public finance, is highly-misleading at best.

[Othelos]

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131010/france-tops-europes-table-of-millionaires
France has the most millionaires in Europe. If they were really going to leave, they'd have all gone to Monaco already to evade high taxes. The 75% tax has been discussed for months and they haven't fled.

That doesn't mean they haven't moved some of their money.

[AiliailiA]

France has a Value Added Tax (VAT) like every other EU country. It's actually a requirement of membership. Countries are allowed to have a lower rate for some products (typically food to be consumed at home, medicine and books) and some countries negotiated a zero rate for small sectors of their economy when joining the EU VAT area.

France's 19.6% VAT is actually below the European average of 21%. But it has more levels of discount rate than other countries:

7% pharmaceuticals, passenger transport, admission to cultural sporting and entertainment events, hotels, accommodation, restaurants
5.5% medical, foodstuffs, ebooks, books
2.1% newspapers, pharmaceuticals

The lower rates forgo about half of what would be raised by everything being taxed at the highest rate.

Well anyway, the standard rate is going to rise to 20%, and the first discount rate is going to rise to 10%. The middle-discounted rate may or may not fall from 5.5% to 5%. This happens ... tomorrow. 1st January.

This is supposed to raise about €10 billion a year, and that money will go to. Wait for it. Tax credits for businesses which raise productivity of labor or increase employment.

Now look, employment is important. It increases social cohesion and gives people self respect. For France to spend money on reducing the effective cost of employment, without actually cutting wages, really is a good idea at this time. A tax break for a company, in the year the company increases employment, is money well spent.

However, productivity increase is not so clearly a good thing: it could mean skills development of employees or buying them better tools ... but it could also mean just making them work harder for the same pay. Particularly concerning is that an incentive to employers to increase productivity of labor in their business won't be transparent to employees themselves, if it's in the form of a tax credit. Employers have no obligation to disclose what tax credits they get, to employees. And that doesn't sound very socialist to me.

Anyway, my point is that the 'millionaires tax' is supposed to raise €210 million a year. If the chicken little libertarians are right and the rich flee and/or weasel around the tax, it will raise even less than that. But that's all they want to talk about, the vast unfairness of income tax. Where's their concern about this tax increase which is FIFTY TIMES BIGGER?

(Note, it may not actually happen. It's pretty unpopular. Businesses at all levels are liable for it, but it won't actually be collected until enabling legislation is passed.)

[Vazdania]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/30/business/international/french-millionaire-tax-cleared.html?hpw&rref=business




My take on the matter?

This consistent attack on the wealthy by (many) socialist and other left wing governments seems to only confirm my longstanding belief that the left is only concerned with enlarging the size of government and subverting the sovereignty of the individual. It unfairly places the tax burned on wealthy individuals and companies.

So..........your thought's on France's 'Millionaire Tax'?

I think it more than a tad high, but your recitation of the "facts" leaves something to be desired. The milionaires' tax is an effort to balance the French budget - an effort which also includes radical cuts in public spending, not growth in it. They're already cutting €15 billion in spending (with no planned increases to offset it) and raising less than €3 billion in revenue in an effort to meet the deficit-reduction requirements of the EU (conversely, the UK - which is under no such requirements, not being a Eurozone member, is still running a deficit of 6% of GDP, compared to France's 4.6%). Granted, this is off a very high base (the French public sector is over 50% of the economy, which I consider to be simply silly), but to present this as a left-wing effort to expand the state, when it is in fact an effort to clean up the shambles that the Eurozone slump and Sarkozy's policies made of French public finance, is highly-misleading at best.

Which would be completely unnecisary had the French government maintained a better budget. The government shouldn't use the rich as it's purse.

[Norstal]

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131010/france-tops-europes-table-of-millionaires
France has the most millionaires in Europe. If they were really going to leave, they'd have all gone to Monaco already to evade high taxes. The 75% tax has been discussed for months and they haven't fled.

Honestly, if you can't even afford taxes in the first place, you're not cut out to be rich anyways. Simply put, you're not elite enough if taxes is what's biting your wealth.

[Xirtam]

If you think this is extreme then you should know that Eisenhower charged a 91% tax rate and fuck all happened.
It's called trickle up. If you take money from the rich and give it commoners, the money will be used to buy things from the rich and just like that they get most of their money back.
Food stamps in america is a great example.
Say a person buys a corn cob for a dollar with a food stamp that a farmer pays taxes for. The cost of the food stamp to the farmer is not a dollar, but it is essentially the equivalent of the farmer giving them the corn cob, which would only cost them a third of a dollar to get to market.
A tax raise on the rich does not reduce their wealth by as much revenue is made from it.

In terms of combating the factor of rich people moving to places with lower taxes, we can
a) Get countries to have tax rates more similar to each other or
b) create regulations on moving resources out of the country

Personally, I prefer a to b, but it would require either international support, some kind of diplomatic peer pressure, or the use of military force. B can be done within the democratic process of a single nation.

[Conscentia]

(Image)
"Up there, Joe."

You know I can't reach that high, Barack. I may have been your running mate, but I never voted for you!

"Oh Really? Remind me - how did your presidential campaign in 08 go, president Biden? Oh wait - I won that."

[Sociobiology]

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131010/france-tops-europes-table-of-millionaires
France has the most millionaires in Europe. If they were really going to leave, they'd have all gone to Monaco already to evade high taxes. The 75% tax has been discussed for months and they haven't fled.

That doesn't mean they haven't moved some of their money.

I though France taxed international assets just like the US.

[Vazdania]

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131010/france-tops-europes-table-of-millionaires
France has the most millionaires in Europe. If they were really going to leave, they'd have all gone to Monaco already to evade high taxes. The 75% tax has been discussed for months and they haven't fled.

Honestly, if you can't even afford taxes in the first place, you're not cut out to be rich anyways. Simply put, you're not elite enough if taxes is what's biting your wealth.

This is complete BS.

[Geilinor]

Honestly, if you can't even afford taxes in the first place, you're not cut out to be rich anyways. Simply put, you're not elite enough if taxes is what's biting your wealth.

This is complete BS.

The argument that you can't afford taxes while owning a mansion and luxury cars is what's BS.

[Geilinor]

That doesn't mean they haven't moved some of their money.

I though France taxed international assets just like the US.

I believe they do.

[Sociobiology]

This is complete BS.

The argument that you can't afford taxes while owning a mansion and luxury cars is what's BS.

If your yearly income is in the millions and you only own one mansion and a luxury car, you are a very strange millionaire.

[Euronion]

go ahead, let them tax their wealthy people even more. With many rich French citizens paying the majority of their income in taxes already, I'm sure that it will only prompt even more French citizens to give up their citizenship. At this rate France won't have anymore rich people to tax.

[Socialist Antarctica]

75% is rather high to start out, perhaps 30-35% anything above 40% may be for billionaires because they can still pay off everything.

[Geilinor]

75% is rather high to start out, perhaps 30-35% anything above 40% may be for billionaires because they can still pay off everything.

It already goes up to 45%. A sudden 30% jump in the rate seems sharp though.

[Keventle]

As tge NYE said today..."socialism at its finest" (sarcasm)
Later saying "killing capitalism..."

[Xirtam]

go ahead, let them tax their wealthy people even more. With many rich French citizens paying the majority of their income in taxes already, I'm sure that it will only prompt even more French citizens to give up their citizenship. At this rate France won't have anymore rich people to tax.

What the hell is with this pointless self-serving argument?
"if you tax the rich too highly they will move to places with lower taxes for the rich" this is the exact kind of logic that gives rich people a place to run from high taxes

[Xirtam]

As tge NYE said today..."socialism at its finest" (sarcasm)
Later saying "killing capitalism..."

High taxes on the rich is not socialism and does not "kill capitalism" in any way whatsoever

[Socialist Antarctica]

75% is rather high to start out, perhaps 30-35% anything above 40% may be for billionaires because they can still pay off everything.

It already goes up to 45%. A sudden 30% jump in the rate seems sharp though.

I agree, if a person ears 1-2 million a 75% tax will be devastating, if anything depending on how much luxuries they have! they would have to take out loans to pay the tax on them all. That does not mean that everyone will, but a 30 to 35% tax may seem more appropriate.