NationStates

Ardoki wrote:We should tax the rich so much that they become middle class and then give some money to the poor so they also become the middle class. There will be only one class, the middle class!

Inequality will always exist when there are different outcomes from equal opportunity and thus different abilities. It's nature homie.

Libertechie wrote:

Liriena wrote:Except there is. Everybody with an income and/or property pays taxes. It's a civic duty, and nobody is exempt from it. Citizens have rights, guarantees and obligations.

Citizens have rights as affirmed by the UN Declaration of Human Rights Act. There are taxes, but we never consented to paying them, and we never got asked if we wanted to receive their services and pay them or opt out. And that's progressive or flat. There is no social contract which we voluntarily signed, instead we are coerced into taxes.

I intend to tax the wealthy for everything they have!

Libertechie wrote:

Ardoki wrote:We should tax the rich so much that they become middle class and then give some money to the poor so they also become the middle class. There will be only one class, the middle class!

Inequality will always exist when there are different outcomes from equal opportunity and thus different abilities. It's nature homie.

Socialism shall rise and there is nothing you can do about it! You are a reactionary!

Ardoki wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Citizens have rights as affirmed by the UN Declaration of Human Rights Act. There are taxes, but we never consented to paying them, and we never got asked if we wanted to receive their services and pay them or opt out. And that's progressive or flat. There is no social contract which we voluntarily signed, instead we are coerced into taxes.

I intend to tax the wealthy for everything they have!

How greedy of you.

Libertechie wrote:

Ardoki wrote:I intend to tax the wealthy for everything they have!

How greedy of you.

You mean how compassionate and generous of me.

Ardoki wrote:

Libertechie wrote: Inequality will always exist when there are different outcomes from equal opportunity and thus different abilities. It's nature homie.

Socialism shall rise and there is nothing you can do about it! You are a reactionary!

I think it died in 1991.

Libertechie wrote:

Liriena wrote:Except there is. Everybody with an income and/or property pays taxes. It's a civic duty, and nobody is exempt from it. Citizens have rights, guarantees and obligations.

Citizens have rights as affirmed by the UN Declaration of Human Rights Act. There are taxes, but we never consented to paying them, and we never got asked if we wanted to receive their services and pay them or opt out. And that's progressive or flat. There is no social contract which we voluntarily signed, instead we are coerced into taxes.

if we gave every person the choice at the age of 18 to sign the contract or get exiled (perfectly voluntary under libertarian ideas) would you stop complaining

Ardoki wrote:

Libertechie wrote:How greedy of you.

You mean how compassionate and generous of me.

Because stealing is oh so moral

Libertechie wrote:

Ardoki wrote:You mean how compassionate and generous of me.

Because stealing is oh so moral

It is if it stops a homeless man from dying!

Alyakia wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Citizens have rights as affirmed by the UN Declaration of Human Rights Act. There are taxes, but we never consented to paying them, and we never got asked if we wanted to receive their services and pay them or opt out. And that's progressive or flat. There is no social contract which we voluntarily signed, instead we are coerced into taxes.

if we gave every person the choice at the age of 18 to sign the contract or get exiled (perfectly voluntary under libertarian ideas) would you stop complaining

Yeahp. That's the basically the same as today with jailings for tax evasion.

Libertechie wrote:

Liriena wrote:Except there is. Everybody with an income and/or property pays taxes. It's a civic duty, and nobody is exempt from it. Citizens have rights, guarantees and obligations.

Citizens have rights as affirmed by the UN Declaration of Human Rights Act. There are taxes, but we never consented to paying them, and we never got asked if we wanted to receive their services and pay them or opt out. And that's progressive or flat. There is no social contract which we voluntarily signed, instead we are coerced into taxes.

So how do you propose the state sustains itself? Magic?

If you don't want to pay taxes, how can you consider yourself entitled to state-funded services, such as legal documentation recognizing certain objects as your property, police, firefighters, armed forces, social services, roads, electricity and water supplies, public transportation, regulations controlling toxic chemicals in products, regulations controlling abusive business practices, courts, the salaries of your lawmakers...? Wouldn't enjoying those benefits without contributing make you a freeloader, living off somebody else's money?

Ardoki wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Because stealing is oh so moral

It is if it stops a homeless man from dying!

Why don't you donate yourself if it's so important?

Libertechie wrote:

Alyakia wrote:
if we gave every person the choice at the age of 18 to sign the contract or get exiled (perfectly voluntary under libertarian ideas) would you stop complaining

Yeahp. That's the basically the same as today with jailings for tax evasion.

Or, you know... giving up your citizenship and moving to another country.

Libertechie wrote:

Ardoki wrote:It is if it stops a homeless man from dying!

Why don't you donate yourself if it's so important?

That is a breach of personal freedoms, comrade!

Good, good. Tax those greedy corrupt swines. No one needs millions of money.

Pindian Republic wrote:Good, good. Tax those greedy corrupt swines. No one needs millions of money.

Correct comrade, tax them for everything they have!

Liriena wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Citizens have rights as affirmed by the UN Declaration of Human Rights Act. There are taxes, but we never consented to paying them, and we never got asked if we wanted to receive their services and pay them or opt out. And that's progressive or flat. There is no social contract which we voluntarily signed, instead we are coerced into taxes.

So how do you propose the state sustains itself? Magic?

If you don't want to pay taxes, how can you consider yourself entitled to state-funded services, such as legal documentation recognizing certain objects as your property, police, firefighters, armed forces, social services, roads, electricity and water supplies, public transportation, regulations controlling toxic chemicals in products, regulations controlling abusive business practices, courts, the salaries of your lawmakers...? Wouldn't enjoying those benefits without contributing make you a freeloader, living off somebody else's money?

Re-read it. I am giving people the choice to opt out of government services. But I should probably redo some of it, people should be able to opt outta education, healthcare, pensions etc, and it should be an individual life-time commitment. The courts should remain, but seriously if we just took down tax and privatized most of it, it would be so much better, so less coercive.

So, it has almost been a month. Any word on how France's millionaires are taking this?

Ardoki wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Why don't you donate yourself if it's so important?

That is a breach of personal freedoms, comrade!

No, it's a breach of freedoms to force someone else to pay, tovarishch.

Libertechie wrote:

Ardoki wrote:It is if it stops a homeless man from dying!

Why don't you donate yourself if it's so important?

Because the quality of life of others affects your own. No human being lives in a vacuum. A dying homeless man could carry contagious diseases that could spread to you and/or your loved ones. A starving homeless man could be driven to crime by his desperation, once again endangering your health and/or that of your loved ones.

You want to enjoy the fruits of your labour? Try to help make sure that you live surrounded by people who are mentally and physically healthy, relatively content and not prone to endangering you or the rest of society, be it directly or indirectly.

Liriena wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Why don't you donate yourself if it's so important?

Because the quality of life of others affects your own. No human being lives in a vacuum. A dying homeless man could carry contagious diseases that could spread to you and/or your loved ones. A starving homeless man could be driven to crime by his desperation, once again endangering your health and/or that of your loved ones.

You want to enjoy the fruits of your labour? Try to help make sure that you live surrounded by people who are mentally and physically healthy, relatively content and not prone to endangering you or the rest of society, be it directly or indirectly.

Of course I would! Compassion is at the heart of my values. Is forcing other people to do so? No.

Libertechie wrote:

Ardoki wrote:That is a breach of personal freedoms, comrade!

No, it's a breach of freedoms to force someone else to pay, tovarishch.

No it isn't if it weren't for the state they would not have made all their money!

Libertechie wrote:

Liriena wrote:So how do you propose the state sustains itself? Magic?

If you don't want to pay taxes, how can you consider yourself entitled to state-funded services, such as legal documentation recognizing certain objects as your property, police, firefighters, armed forces, social services, roads, electricity and water supplies, public transportation, regulations controlling toxic chemicals in products, regulations controlling abusive business practices, courts, the salaries of your lawmakers...? Wouldn't enjoying those benefits without contributing make you a freeloader, living off somebody else's money?

Re-read it. I am giving people the choice to opt out of government services. But I should probably redo some of it, people should be able to opt outta education, healthcare, pensions etc, and it should be an individual life-time commitment. The courts should remain, but seriously if we just took down tax and privatized most of it, it would be so much better, so less coercive.

Bullshit. The thing about the state providing services and regulating activities is that it's universal and unbiased. It sets broad basic standards that apply to all citizens, regardless of socioeconomic status. Privatizing all services would automatically leave the less economically and educationally fortunate extremely vulnerable to abuse and neglect, and the whole of society would suffer from it shortly afterwards.

Liriena wrote:

Libertechie wrote:Re-read it. I am giving people the choice to opt out of government services. But I should probably redo some of it, people should be able to opt outta education, healthcare, pensions etc, and it should be an individual life-time commitment. The courts should remain, but seriously if we just took down tax and privatized most of it, it would be so much better, so less coercive.

Bullshit. The thing about the state providing services and regulating activities is that it's universal and unbiased. It sets broad basic standards that apply to all citizens, regardless of socioeconomic status. Privatizing all services would automatically leave the less economically and educationally fortunate extremely vulnerable to abuse and neglect, and the whole of society would suffer from it shortly afterwards.

Well no. Businesses compete and provide the lowest prices possible to cater for their people they serve, and if there are lots of people left behind, the companies would have to respond to the demand they lose. The government should keep an education system in the background for if the market does stuff up, but the market would deliver lots if they just freed it up.

Libertechie wrote:

Liriena wrote:Because the quality of life of others affects your own. No human being lives in a vacuum. A dying homeless man could carry contagious diseases that could spread to you and/or your loved ones. A starving homeless man could be driven to crime by his desperation, once again endangering your health and/or that of your loved ones.

You want to enjoy the fruits of your labour? Try to help make sure that you live surrounded by people who are mentally and physically healthy, relatively content and not prone to endangering you or the rest of society, be it directly or indirectly.

Of course I would! Compassion is at the heart of my values. Is forcing other people to do so? No.

Again, citizens don't have just rights. They also have obligations, duties that may seem coercive at first glance, but ultimately serve to ensure a modicum of social order.