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Your thoughts on communism?

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:26 pm

Senatus Populusque Lundensis wrote:
Duvniask wrote:No, it doesn't exactly advocate social ownership.


This is what social democracy has evolved to.


Social democracy is a political ideology that officially has as its goal the establishment of democratic socialism through reformist and gradualist methods. Alternatively, social democracy is defined as a policy regime involving a universal welfare state and collective bargaining schemes within the framework of a capitalist economy. It is often used in this manner to refer to the social models and economic policies prominent in Western and Northern Europe during the later half of the 20th century.


Notice the underlined bit. It comes first, implicating that it is the more correct or relevant definition.

Social Democracy = Democratic Socialism through reforms = [Socialism through democracy] though reforms.

Still socialism.

You can't just deduce that from the article, because "it's first". The rest of the text is also relevant.
It is often used in this manner to refer to the social models and economic policies prominent in Western and Northern Europe during the later half of the 20th century.

Social democracy is merely a welfare state in the capitalist system, and has been widely acknowledged as such.
Social democratic parties have long given up on promoting social ownership, and have instead embraced third way. We should therefore distinguish this from socialism, which supports social ownership over private.
Last edited by Duvniask on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
One of these days, I'm going to burst a blood vessel in my brain.

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New Laikland
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Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby New Laikland » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:27 pm

Unitaristic Regions wrote:Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Wings mean nothing. Once you move beyond the concept of left/right, liberal/conservative, you then begin to truly understand politics.

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European Socialist Republic
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Founded: Apr 09, 2013
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Postby European Socialist Republic » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:27 pm

Clone Creatures wrote:
European Socialist Republic wrote:http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

Look how impossible it is to achieve Universal Healthcare!


Funny how in the 1900's the doctor came to the house, or how in the 1930's you might be able to barter for
services, but today it's barter the house you live in, if you got one. Corporate Thievery INC.

Is that all you're going to do in this thread? Posting hipster comments?
Economic Left/Right: -7
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.9
I am a far-left moderate social libertarian.
Left: 9.13
Libertarian: 2.62
Non-interventionalist: 7.34
Cultural liberal: 9.12
I am a Trotskyist.
Cosmopolitan: 71%
Secular: 80%
Visionary: 62%
Anarchistic: 43%
Communistic: 78%
Pacifist: 40%
Anthropocentric: 50%

Legalize Tyranny, Impeach the Twenty-second Amendment, Term Limits are Theft, Barack Obama 2016!
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Unitaristic Regions
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:29 pm

New Laikland wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Wings mean nothing. Once you move beyond the concept of left/right, liberal/conservative, you then begin to truly understand politics.


Yeah yeah, right. I know. Just wondering about his ideology is all.
Used to be a straight-edge orthodox communist, now I'm de facto a state-capitalist who dislikes migration and hopes automation will bring socialism under proper conditions.

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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:29 pm

European Socialist Republic wrote:
New Laikland wrote:
I agree, that North Korean Healthcare is something else!

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

According to the map, North Korea does not have universal healthcare.

The way that the US is funding health care in Afghanistan and Iraq but not in the US itself. Republicans, that's what your tax dollars are paying for; it's a key part of the war you know.
Last edited by Wolfmanne on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:29 pm

New Laikland wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Wings mean nothing. Once you move beyond the concept of left/right, liberal/conservative, you then begin to truly understand politics.

I think you're wrong in saying that. Understanding the opposition of those who support social hierarchy (right-wing) and those who don't (left-wing) seems fairly important.
Last edited by Duvniask on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
One of these days, I'm going to burst a blood vessel in my brain.

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New Laikland
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Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby New Laikland » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 pm

Duvniask wrote:I think you're wrong in saying that. Understanding the opposites of those who support social hierarchy (right-wing) and those who don't (left-wing) seems fairly important.

The definition of social hierarchy can change, it depends on the context.

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The New Age Republic
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Postby The New Age Republic » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 pm

I'm very pro communist, but I can understand why others aren't. I'm just waiting for the chance for true communism to occur, but I figure for it to work it needs to be applied to a fresh society, and the only places left where society could start anew are the other planets, so...

SPACE COMMUNISM ALL THE WAY!
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Communist Statolatry

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Clone Creatures
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Founded: Dec 10, 2013
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Postby Clone Creatures » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:33 pm

Unitaristic Regions wrote:
Clone Creatures wrote:
Funny how in the 1900's the doctor came to the house, or how in the 1930's you might be able to barter for
services, but today it's barter the house you live in, if you got one. Corporate Thievery INC.


Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.

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New Laikland
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Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby New Laikland » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Clone Creatures wrote:
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.


plsbjokeplsbjoke

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Unitaristic Regions
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Clone Creatures wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:
Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.


Then you're actually somewhat alike me... But perhaps a tad less leftist...
Used to be a straight-edge orthodox communist, now I'm de facto a state-capitalist who dislikes migration and hopes automation will bring socialism under proper conditions.

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:35 pm

New Laikland wrote:
Duvniask wrote:I think you're wrong in saying that. Understanding the opposites of those who support social hierarchy (right-wing) and those who don't (left-wing) seems fairly important.

The definition of social hierarchy can change, it depends on the context.

Doesn't matter. You said they were a irrelevant when understanding politics.
One of these days, I'm going to burst a blood vessel in my brain.

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The Fascist American Empire
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Founded: Oct 12, 2013
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Postby The Fascist American Empire » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:35 pm

New Laikland wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:
No, that's because Americans can be idiots. Don't blame rabid patriotism and disinformation on communism.


Yes, because Americans are the only ones capable of being idiots

Sometimes it seems like it. Until the Russians, the Chinese, or the Greeks make a stupid mistake. But we make mistakes a lot more often. Just used those three as examples.

Americans, hands off Ukraine and let Russia do what they will in their own sphere of influence! You are not the world's police!
You obviously do since you posted a response like the shifty little red velvet pseudo ant you are. Yes I am onto your little tricks you hissing pest you exoskeleton brier patch you. Now crawl back in to that patch of grass you call hell and hiss some more. -Benuty
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European Socialist Republic
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Founded: Apr 09, 2013
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Postby European Socialist Republic » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:35 pm

Clone Creatures wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:
Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.

So what form of Anarchism do you support?
Economic Left/Right: -7
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.9
I am a far-left moderate social libertarian.
Left: 9.13
Libertarian: 2.62
Non-interventionalist: 7.34
Cultural liberal: 9.12
I am a Trotskyist.
Cosmopolitan: 71%
Secular: 80%
Visionary: 62%
Anarchistic: 43%
Communistic: 78%
Pacifist: 40%
Anthropocentric: 50%

Legalize Tyranny, Impeach the Twenty-second Amendment, Term Limits are Theft, Barack Obama 2016!
HOI4

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Unitaristic Regions
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:36 pm

European Socialist Republic wrote:
Clone Creatures wrote:
Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.

So what form of Anarchism do you support?


Because there a lots indeed...
Used to be a straight-edge orthodox communist, now I'm de facto a state-capitalist who dislikes migration and hopes automation will bring socialism under proper conditions.

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The Scientific States
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Founded: Apr 29, 2013
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Postby The Scientific States » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:37 pm

Clone Creatures wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:
Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.


Anarchism?

Why do you have such a dislike for government?
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Unitaristic Regions
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:37 pm

New Laikland wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:
No, that's because Americans can be idiots. Don't blame rabid patriotism and disinformation on communism a lot of fucking things.


Yes, because Americans are the only ones capable of being idiots


Through mentioned, edited, flaws in America they seem much more capable, to be fair.
Used to be a straight-edge orthodox communist, now I'm de facto a state-capitalist who dislikes migration and hopes automation will bring socialism under proper conditions.

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The New Age Republic
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Founded: Jun 27, 2013
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Postby The New Age Republic » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:38 pm

Clone Creatures wrote:Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.


Ah, see, now anarchy I can't understand. You can have government without it being dangerous, and I suppose its possible to have collective anarchy, but anarchy always seems much more dangerous and volatile than government.
Communist Statolatry

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Unitaristic Regions
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:38 pm

The Scientific States wrote:
Clone Creatures wrote:
Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.


Anarchism?

Why do you have such a dislike for government?


Probably because it is inherently coercive.
Used to be a straight-edge orthodox communist, now I'm de facto a state-capitalist who dislikes migration and hopes automation will bring socialism under proper conditions.

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:39 pm

Unitaristic Regions wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:
Anarchism?

Why do you have such a dislike for government?


Probably because it is inherently coercive.

Are you sure, that you don't mean a state?
One of these days, I'm going to burst a blood vessel in my brain.

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Clone Creatures
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Founded: Dec 10, 2013
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Postby Clone Creatures » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:39 pm

Unitaristic Regions wrote:
Clone Creatures wrote:
Government is innately dangerous.
Anarchism is the proper way ahead, as opposed to the current rule by corporate anarchy.


Then you're actually somewhat alike me... But perhaps a tad less leftist...


Government is a front, the illusion; the people who pose for the job are compromised. There can be no others.
It is impossible to rise to any level of authority without having been compromised.

This control by black mail and extortion reaches far down to extremely low levels, even if those at those levels
are unaware they are actually being watched.

As long as humans believe they need a "Big Daddy" then they will remain slaves and servants.

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The Scientific States
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Founded: Apr 29, 2013
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Postby The Scientific States » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:40 pm

Unitaristic Regions wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:
Anarchism?

Why do you have such a dislike for government?


Probably because it is inherently coercive.


If you assume that society can survive without government, you'd have to be really idealistic.

Most humans are selfish assholes, and a fair sized government should exist for that reason, and to help others who have been put in bad situations by selfish assholes.
Centrist, Ordoliberal, Bisexual, Agnostic, Pro Social Market Economy, Pro Labour Union, Secular Humanist, Cautious Optimist, Pro LGBT, Pro Marijuana Legalization, Pro Humanitarian Intervention etc etc.
Compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Liberal/Authoritarian: -6.62
Political Stuff I Wrote
Why Pinochet and Allende were both terrible
The UKIP: A Bad Choice for Britain
Why South Africa is in a sorry state, and how it can be fixed.
Massive List of My OOC Pros and Cons
Hey, Putin! Leave Ukraine Alone!

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Gyrenaica
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Founded: Nov 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Gyrenaica » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:42 pm

Gyre acid sees it as it's second choice,sh pull the dictator fall in any way, shape, or form.

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Pandeeria
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Founded: Jun 12, 2011
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Postby Pandeeria » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:42 pm

New Laikland wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.


Wings mean nothing. Once you move beyond the concept of left/right, liberal/conservative, you then begin to truly understand politics.


So in other words, you're a political hipster? Cute.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Zeganas
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Founded: Jul 26, 2011
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Postby Zeganas » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:43 pm

How it was used in its history? bad

How it was meant to be used ideally? a bit good
I would say ideal communism still doesn't compare to ideal capitalism or ideal socialism because in both capitalism and socialism, people still have a shot at becoming rich and improving their lives, that gives everyone at least some motivation to keep going a bit more in a capitalistic and socialistic society. Though they have the downsides, like poverty and starvation, there's also welfare. It's the motivation that counts, and once the world is fully automated by robots and people won't have to work at anything, then there will be no more need for capitalism, but that's centuries away.
Last edited by Zeganas on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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