Your thoughts on communism?

[Wolfmanne]

Luveria has a point. The NHS is not considered anywhere near socialistic in the UK. Heck, I'd say a key component of one nation conservatism (a form of conservatism in the UK) is strong support for universal health care. Even our thatcherite cousins support the NHS. Bismarck, a key influence on modern conservatism, supported a strong welfare state and universal health as a bastion against leftism (including both socialism and marxism).

Universal Healthcare isn't even socialist. There has never even been a welfare state that was Socialist (Was the USSR or Cuba one?). As UR said above, Welfare Capitalism.

And it is basic reforms like these that are considered socialistic in the United States, when really they have been endorsed by conservatives, liberals and social democrats alike (the three main political groupings in Europe basically). Truly sad.

[Clone Creatures]

National Socialism.

National Socialism=/=Socialism.

They're polar opposites.

Are they? In theory maybe, but in reality?

[Lumeau]

I can see how it would be an appealing idea to end the excesses of the free market and eliminate obscenely huge gaps between the rich and poor, but in my opinion it suffers from some very huge failings.

1. The most obvious one to me is that collective ownership of the means of production requires some mechanism to enforce such ownership. In basically all communist countries, that mechanism has been the state. The terminal stage of communism, as envisioned by Marx, would be a stateless, classless society. However, the way that communism works in practice is you have to have some sort of nationalizing of factories, labor, etc. in order to keep the property out of the hands of one person or one group (such as a corporation).

This setup requires that the government be given a HUGE amount of power during the "transitional stage" to stateless communism. These sorts of governments always seem to become more about self-perpetuation than anything, as you have a small group of people suddenly controlling an entire country's means of production. In the end, it ends up looking a lot like any other form of dictatorship - see the USSR, the PRC (of several decades ago), Cambodia, Cuba, etc. Not good.

2. I like the idea of people being entitled to things like food, housing, and necessary medical care. I'm not, however, convinced these goals can't be accomplished in a free-market economy that's sensibly regulated to prevent excess and abuse (think of a social democracy). Furthermore, I'm much more concerned about those at the bottom not falling through the cracks than those at the top having some sort of hard cap on how much wealth they can accumulate. Obviously, at some point concentrating SO much wealth at the top will hurt those at the bottom, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to have exactly the same amount of wealth in order to succeed in life, either.

3. Communism might be able to work on a very small scale; in one village or town, for example. But when you start talking about entire countries, it becomes VERY difficult to centrally plan an economy from the top-down. Most economists agree this is not a good idea, and instead advocate sensible government intervention to avoid reckless behavior.

4. The concept of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a denial of freedom of choice. I am strongly opposed to a society that essentially forces people to have a pre-defined vocation or career in which the citizen has no voice.

5. Even if there was a communist society that achieved statelessness and income equality, people would still have to pitch in to keep the machine going; i.e., they'd still have to work, and many would have to work just as hard as they would in a capitalist system. Communism was a response to the Industrial Revolution when the idea of selling one's own labor became very widespread, and before we had laws that protected workers from overambitious industrialists. We obviously have issues with labor and workers' rights today, but during the time of Marx, these abuses seemed to be on a wholly different scale. I can understand the backlash against exploitation of laborers in Marx's day, but now, as it was then, communism seems to be something akin to driving a nail with a wrecking ball.

If the goal is to protect the laborer from the excesses of unrestricted capitalism, there are more effective ways to do it that respect the rights of the people far more than communism.

[Unitaristic Regions]

It's how he called himself, how would I know if you don't use it with the same meaning? That's what I meant.
Also it was a joke, if the ALL CAPS and bold letters didn't tip anyone off.

There are some uninformed, apathetic people on NSG who would've non-jokingly said Hitler is a socialist.

You're new to NSG, so we didn't know you were joking, as we don't know your beliefs or posting style super well.

Haha, indeed

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

National Socialism=/=Socialism.

They're polar opposites.

Are they? In theory maybe, but in reality?

"If people have their bread, they have their socialism." Hitler

[New Laikland]

And it is basic reforms like these that are considered socialistic in the United States, when really they have been endorsed by conservatives, liberals and social democrats alike (the three main political groupings in Europe basically). Truly sad.

'murica

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSxPTlJ1nOA

[Unitaristic Regions]

National Socialism=/=Socialism.

They're polar opposites.

Are they? In theory maybe, but in reality?

They're not, but they're very different.

[European Socialist Republic]

National Socialism=/=Socialism.

They're polar opposites.

Are they? In theory maybe, but in reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monowitz_c ... ation_camp

Hitler allowed IG Farben (a PRIVATE company) to use concentration camp prisoners for slave labour.

[Clone Creatures]

National Socialism.

The Third Reich form of socialism does not fit the common textbook definition though.

The state did take control of the economy and maintained several social programs, but as far as I know that's it. Hitler was anti-communist and anti-capitalist.

No, to me it makes perfect sense, anyways Il Duce invented fascism. In national socialism, the social people, that's you BTW, exists to serve the state, and you do that by serving the corporations. In effect a front for rule by oligarchs.

Pretty much just like all of the Western Europeans and the US and Canada are doing.

[Unitaristic Regions]

The Third Reich form of socialism does not fit the common textbook definition though.

The state did take control of the economy and maintained several social programs, but as far as I know that's it. Hitler was anti-communist and anti-capitalist.

No, to me it makes perfect sense, anyways Il Duce invented fascism. In national socialism, the social people, that's you BTW, exists to serve the state, and you do that by serving the corporations. In effect a front for rule by oligarchs.

Pretty much just like all of the Western Europeans and the US and Canada are doing.

...

So... Capitalism?

[European Socialist Republic]

The Third Reich form of socialism does not fit the common textbook definition though.

The state did take control of the economy and maintained several social programs, but as far as I know that's it. Hitler was anti-communist and anti-capitalist.

No, to me it makes perfect sense, anyways Il Duce invented fascism. In national socialism, the social people, that's you BTW, exists to serve the state, and you do that by serving the corporations. In effect a front for rule by oligarchs.

Pretty much just like all of the Western Europeans and the US and Canada are doing.

Sure. Of course. Why not.

[Petrovia-]

A good idea that's impossible to achieve.

If it were such a good idea, it would not be impossible to achieve.

Good ideas are usually possible to achieve. Universal healthcare is a good idea. It's possible to achieve.

Universal Healthcare possible to achieve... that's a good one!

[The Scientific States]

If it were such a good idea, it would not be impossible to achieve.

Good ideas are usually possible to achieve. Universal healthcare is a good idea. It's possible to achieve.

Universal Healthcare possible to achieve... that's a good one!

Western Europe, and every other developed country(besides Murica), would like a word with you.

[New Laikland]

Universal Healthcare possible to achieve... that's a good one!

Man, who cares about Norway?

[The Scientific States]

Universal Healthcare possible to achieve... that's a good one!

Man, who cares about Norway?

While we're at it, who gives a fuck about Western Europe and East Asia?

[New Laikland]

While we're at it, who gives a fuck about Western Europe and East Asia?

I agree, that North Korean Healthcare is something else!

[European Socialist Republic]

If it were such a good idea, it would not be impossible to achieve.

Good ideas are usually possible to achieve. Universal healthcare is a good idea. It's possible to achieve.

Universal Healthcare possible to achieve... that's a good one!

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

Look how impossible it is to achieve Universal Healthcare!

[Clone Creatures]

Are they? In theory maybe, but in reality?

"If people have their bread, they have their socialism." Hitler

So much for Stalins Socialism then huh?

[European Socialist Republic]

While we're at it, who gives a fuck about Western Europe and East Asia?

I agree, that North Korean Healthcare is something else!

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

According to the map, North Korea does not have universal healthcare.

[New Laikland]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

According to the map, North Korea does not have universal healthcare.

[Clone Creatures]

Are they? In theory maybe, but in reality?

"If people have their bread, they have their socialism." Hitler

You will notice too that Stalin had first disarmed them before removing the bread.

[Unitaristic Regions]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

According to the map, North Korea does not have universal healthcare.

[Clone Creatures]

Universal Healthcare possible to achieve... that's a good one!

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

Look how impossible it is to achieve Universal Healthcare!

Funny how in the 1900's the doctor came to the house, or how in the 1930's you might be able to barter for
services, but today it's barter the house you live in, if you got one. Corporate Thievery INC.

[Unitaristic Regions]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/ ... rldbig.jpg

Look how impossible it is to achieve Universal Healthcare!

Funny how in the 1900's the doctor came to the house, or how in the 1930's you might be able to barter for
services, but today it's barter the house you live in, if you got one. Corporate Thievery INC.

Are you left or right wing? Or moderate? Because your posted content seems rather mixed.

[New Laikland]

Funny how in the 1900's the doctor came to the house, or how in the 1930's you might be able to barter for
services, but today it's barter the house you live in, if you got one. Corporate Thievery INC.

Nah, just horrible government policy.