"Santa Claus should be white"

[North Calaveras]

Only way I could see them do it is if they did an alternate interpretation of the story of alladin and changed his name to a Nordic one, then I could see it perhaps. Still wouldn't be considered the original however.

That's fair. Though, that wouldn't really be Aladdin anymore; it would be a story set in Scandinavia most likely and inspired by or based on Aladdin of the Thousand and One Nights.

ya exactly

[God Kefka]

Because he isn't Nordic. It's not that it impacts the nature of the character or anything deeply analytical like that. He just isn't. It's a fact. It is perfectly fine for me to expect people to accept hard facts.

Only way I could see them do it is if they did an alternate interpretation of the story of alladin and changed his name to a Nordic one, then I could see it perhaps. Still wouldn't be considered the original however.

exactly...

[God Kefka]

if a white author wrote up a character who has a white first name and a white last name (the character) and that character is born in a predominantly white country and works for a predominantly white government... the presumption is that such a character is white.

No it isn't.

it is when you use common sense...

if a character is named James Bond (clearly a white last name), works for England, the author who wrote him up is English, Bond is born England, and all movie versions of Bond have shown him to be white... he is white.

the whole argument is moot anyhow because I do believe there is actually explicit textual reference that Bond is white somewhere in the book.

[Raltirian Denethier]

Because he isn't Nordic. It's not that it impacts the nature of the character or anything deeply analytical like that. He just isn't. It's a fact. It is perfectly fine for me to expect people to accept hard facts.

Which is what they're doing.

Them believing that Alladin in the original story isn't Nordic has jack shit to do with their version of it where he is.

What does that even mean?

There is one story of Aladdin. The fact is, then, that Aladdin is Arab, as he is originally.

[The Godly Nations]

Because he isn't Nordic. It's not that it impacts the nature of the character or anything deeply analytical like that. He just isn't. It's a fact. It is perfectly fine for me to expect people to accept hard facts.

Only way I could see them do it is if they did an alternate interpretation of the story of alladin and changed his name to a Nordic one, then I could see it perhaps. Still wouldn't be considered the original however.

Alladin was supposedly originally from China (at a time when Chinoiserie was all the rage), and, in the original French, he spoke in courtly French of the 17-18th century.

It was freely adapted by Galland from a tale told by his Arab Christian monk friend, and serve to show how Alladin, like Santa Claus should be, was an adaptation to the listener/viewer and the place.

[Mavorpen]

if a character is named James Bond, works for England, the author who wrote him up is English, Bond is born England, and all movie versions of Bond have shown him to be white... he is white.

...What a shitty straw man you have there.

I never, not once, said that he isn't white.

[The Godly Nations]

Which is what they're doing.

Them believing that Alladin in the original story isn't Nordic has jack shit to do with their version of it where he is.

What does that even mean?

There is one story of Aladdin. The fact is, then, that Aladdin is Arab, as he is originally.

Which goes to show how time change, because in the original, he was Chinese. Did the story suddenly change...was it less powerful, less moving, more beautiful, more poetic?

[God Kefka]

Which is what they're doing.

Them believing that Alladin in the original story isn't Nordic has jack shit to do with their version of it where he is.

What does that even mean?

There is one story of Aladdin. The fact is, then, that Aladdin is Arab, as he is originally.

What? Aladdin? Of course he is Middle Eastern...

[Mavorpen]

What does that even mean?

It means that contrary to what you believe, writing a story based on another one and changing one thing about said character doesn't require that you believe that your story is the original one.

You are, again, whining over absolutely nothing. It's not meant to replace the original Aladdin. It's not meant to erase the original from existence. It's meant to be another take on the character.

[Raltirian Denethier]

Only way I could see them do it is if they did an alternate interpretation of the story of alladin and changed his name to a Nordic one, then I could see it perhaps. Still wouldn't be considered the original however.

Alladin was supposedly originally from China (at a time when Chinoiserie was all the rage), and, in the original French, he spoke in courtly French of the 17-18th century.

It was freely adapted by Galland from a tale told by his Arab Christian monk friend, and serve to show how Alladin, like Santa Claus should be, was an adaptation to the listener/viewer and the place.

Sorry, I forgot, you are right. He was Chinese.

In any case, that is the fact of Aladdin.

Now to your last point, I have no problem with the idea of adapting Santa. Go for it. Make him a Martian for all I care. It's when people view the traditional white image as racist that is the trouble, because it is just a false accusation, and I don't like it when people make false accusations out of nowhere.

[Raltirian Denethier]

What does that even mean?

It means that contrary to what you believe, writing a story based on another one and changing one thing about said character doesn't require that you believe that your story is the original one.

You are, again, whining over absolutely nothing. It's not meant to replace the original Aladdin. It's not meant to erase the original from existence. It's meant to be another take on the character.

Are you paying attention to me at all? I haven't objected to the idea of people taking their own take on characters. The problem is when people view traditional images, such as that of a white Santa, as being somehow a bad thing.

[Mavorpen]

Alladin was supposedly originally from China (at a time when Chinoiserie was all the rage), and, in the original French, he spoke in courtly French of the 17-18th century.

It was freely adapted by Galland from a tale told by his Arab Christian monk friend, and serve to show how Alladin, like Santa Claus should be, was an adaptation to the listener/viewer and the place.

Sorry, I forgot, you are right. He was Chinese.

In any case, that is the fact of Aladdin.

Now to your last point, I have no problem with the idea of adapting Santa. Go for it. Make him a Martian for all I care. It's when people view the traditional white image as racist that is the trouble, because it is just a false accusation, and I don't like it when people make false accusations out of nowhere.

And since absolutely no one views the original white Santa as racist, you're tilting at windmills.

[The Godly Nations]

if a character is named James Bond, works for England, the author who wrote him up is English, Bond is born England, and all movie versions of Bond have shown him to be white... he is white.

...What a shitty straw man you have there.

I never, not once, said that he isn't white.

In addition, the information is completely incorrect: James Bond works for the government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I don't believe Flemings went into much detail about where he was born (he may be born in Wales), Sean Connery's Bond had something of a Scottish Accent, and it does not preclude the possibility of having a Black Bond, as Black Britons do exist.

[Mavorpen]

Are you paying attention to me at all? I haven't objected to the idea of people taking their own take on characters.

Then I have no idea why you're complaining about it.

The problem is when people view traditional images, such as that of a white Santa, as being somehow a bad thing.

Which is again, not being argued as a viewpoint.

[Alien Space Bats]

It's fun for everyone but yes, it started as a holiday pioneered by white people (so it would seem that Santa Claus is white in the legend). But I don't see what that has to do with anything I've said...

Are you trying to perhaps imply that I think only white people should have the right to celebrate Christmas? Just remember, I didn't say that... you said it. Don't act like I did...

So you're telling me it's wrong for black fathers to dress up as Santa for their kids because it's "inauthentic"?

[Mavorpen]

...What a shitty straw man you have there.

I never, not once, said that he isn't white.

In addition, the information is completely incorrect: James Bond works for the government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I don't believe Flemings went into much detail about where he was born (he may be born in Wales), Sean Connery's Bond had something of a Scottish Accent, and it does not preclude the possibility of having a Black Bond, as Black Britons do exist.

Ian Fleming drew a photo of Bond portraying him as white, IIRC. But you're right that it isn't stated that he is in the story.

[God Kefka]

It's fun for everyone but yes, it started as a holiday pioneered by white people (so it would seem that Santa Claus is white in the legend). But I don't see what that has to do with anything I've said...

Are you trying to perhaps imply that I think only white people should have the right to celebrate Christmas? Just remember, I didn't say that... you said it. Don't act like I did...

So you're telling me it's wrong for black fathers to dress up as Santa for their kids because it's "inauthentic"?

no... it's not wrong.

Just that when they do that, they are either role playing a racially white role... or else role playing something else that can't be appropriately called a Santa.

Because Santa is and has always been white...

[Raltirian Denethier]

Sorry, I forgot, you are right. He was Chinese.

In any case, that is the fact of Aladdin.

Now to your last point, I have no problem with the idea of adapting Santa. Go for it. Make him a Martian for all I care. It's when people view the traditional white image as racist that is the trouble, because it is just a false accusation, and I don't like it when people make false accusations out of nowhere.

And since absolutely no one views the original white Santa as racist, you're tilting at windmills.

Why does this whole debate exist to begin with? It's because people have a problem with Santa being white. Apparently Santa has to be multicultural.

I pointed out that since Santa was actually a white guy, that isn't unjustified. I'm saying we need to chill out about these things.

And talking about tilting at windmills, you're getting all aggressive at people who you would fancy racists for saying that Santa is/was white, etc. The fact is, that is just a fact, not racism. It doesn't mean people are hating on blacks or anything like that.

[The Godly Nations]

Alladin was supposedly originally from China (at a time when Chinoiserie was all the rage), and, in the original French, he spoke in courtly French of the 17-18th century.

It was freely adapted by Galland from a tale told by his Arab Christian monk friend, and serve to show how Alladin, like Santa Claus should be, was an adaptation to the listener/viewer and the place.

Sorry, I forgot, you are right. He was Chinese.

In any case, that is the fact of Aladdin.

Now to your last point, I have no problem with the idea of adapting Santa. Go for it. Make him a Martian for all I care. It's when people view the traditional white image as racist that is the trouble, because it is just a false accusation, and I don't like it when people make false accusations out of nowhere.

Only, it isn't a fact of the matter, Galland arbitrarily choose to make him Chinese, you thought he was an Arab, clearly Race plays really no influence in this story but that it is a 'somewhere else', that is distant from their time. That was probably the only function of setting it somewhere else, for some Chinese thrills, tailored for his audience's taste. If you choose to make Alladin a nordic Alladin, there is no major harm to the story.

[Alien Space Bats]

So you're telling me it's wrong for black fathers to dress up as Santa for their kids because it's "inauthentic"?

no... it's not wrong.

Just that when they do that, they are either role playing a racially white role... or else role playing something else that can't be appropriately called a Santa.

Because Santa is and has always been white...

Oh, so black fathers have to play Santa in whiteface, then? And talk with a pretend white accent?

Dig yourself deeper, Mr. Grinch.

[Mavorpen]

Why does this whole debate exist to begin with? It's because people have a problem with Santa being white.

No. No one has a problem with Santa being white.

Apparently Santa has to be multicultural.

Again, no one has said this.

And talking about tilting at windmills, you're getting all aggressive at people who you would fancy racists for saying that Santa is/was white, etc. The fact is, that is just a fact, not racism. It doesn't mean people are hating on blacks or anything like that.

No. For the love of Odin could you once represent my argument correctly? I didn't call anyone a racist for saying that Santa has been portrayed as white. I called someone a racist for saying that he should only be white.

[Alien Space Bats]

I mean... try as hard as you want, a white actor can never fully portray Martin Luther King jr.

So Lawrence Olivier should have never accepted a role as Othello?

A theater won't hire a white person to ever play Martin Luther King jr... not a professional one anyways. It just won't be convincing.

Political correctness and racial blindness doesn't and shouldn't tie art. Art is all about the visual...

Santa is white.

Othello is a black character. Olivier was white.

Elaborate, please, on why Olivier's Othello was not a great stage performance.

I'm all ears.

[God Kefka]

no... it's not wrong.

Just that when they do that, they are either role playing a racially white role... or else role playing something else that can't be appropriately called a Santa.

Because Santa is and has always been white...

Oh, so black fathers have to play Santa in whiteface, then? And talk with a pretend white accent?

Dig yourself deeper, Mr. Grinch.

no they don't have to...

[The Godly Nations]

I mean... try as hard as you want, a white actor can never fully portray Martin Luther King jr.

So Lawrence Olivier should have never accepted a role as Othello?

A theater won't hire a white person to ever play Martin Luther King jr... not a professional one anyways. It just won't be convincing.

Political correctness and racial blindness doesn't and shouldn't tie art. Art is all about the visual...

Santa is white.

Othello is a black character. Olivier was white.

Elaborate, please, on why Olivier's Othello was not a great stage performance.

I'm all ears.

The same reason why Kurosawa's Ran and Throne of Blood were terrible movies, because they are in Japan with Japanese, when both take place in Britain with Britons, and because Olivier was white when Othello was a Moor.

[Mavorpen]

Oh, so black fathers have to play Santa in whiteface, then? And talk with a pretend white accent?

Dig yourself deeper, Mr. Grinch.

no they don't have to...

So they should do a half-assed job of portraying Santa?

What happened to that fervent "stick to the source material!" fire you displayed?