"Santa Claus should be white"

[God Kefka]

all the pictures of Santa Claus from before the modern age and especially the ones around the conception and height of the Father Christmas character... show him to be white.

That says enough... go on wikipedia and tell me what you see. White old men all over...

We get it, you don't like black people.

that's neither here nor there.

Fact of the matter is, Santa has always been white.

He's always been drawn as white prior to the 1900s and around the time of the conception of his character in Father Christmas, he's always been shown as white.

A simple wikipedia search does it...

[God Kefka]

when you look at the all the recognized and surviving pictures of Santa (such as some of the ones on wikipedia) from before the 1900s you find they all have one thing in common...

He's white.

And still no legends actually saying so.

Over 99% of people will say a white old man with a beard in red and white suit. That's been the case for hundreds of years...

Stop lying. No red suit to be found.

He's always been white...

Wrong.

But it's good to see you own up to your racism. Keep up the good fight.

I've already told you. The presumption is that when ethnic group X comes up with a character, that character is assumed to be ethnic group X as well unless explicitly shown otherwise.

hence, since Europeans came up with Santa, he's white unless shown otherwise.

The burden of proof is on you to show me a single story involving Father Christmas in the cannonical age that explicitly mentions he is not white.

He has always been white... against, just look at all the pictures from before the 1900s... always white.

[Lunamyst]

all the pictures of Santa Claus from before the modern age and especially the ones around the conception and height of the Father Christmas character... show him to be white.

That says enough... go on wikipedia and tell me what you see. White old men all over...

We get it, you don't like black people.

we get it, you're a waste of time.

[Mavorpen]

that's neither here nor there.

Fact of the matter is, Santa has always been white.

He's always been drawn as white prior to the 1900s and around the time of the conception of his character in Father Christmas, he's always been shown as white.

A simple wikipedia search does it...

Again, your dislike for black people is opposed to what Santa is supposed to represent.

[Mavorpen]

I've already told you. The presumption is that when ethnic group X comes up with a character, that character is assumed to be ethnic group X as well unless explicitly shown otherwise.

This was already addressed.

there's a reason why EVERY bloody picture of him on the wikipedia page depicts a white man.

And it isn't a very good reason.

Also, if you read the whole article, the source of the legend is clearly European. The presumption with Europeans is that when they are looking at people like St. Nick, Odin, Sinterklass and Father Christmas... they have a white man in mind unless shown otherwise.

Really, when I hear all those, I have a Turkish fellow in mind...Anatolian, but that's not the point.

People in China don't have mythical figures that we assume are white or black unless they expressly state so.

Glad you brought China up because remember that Northern Indian, Nepalese sage, the one they call the Buddha?

Notice how Chinese he looks in China:

With myths, the presumption is that the people who come up with them see the figures as being of their own race... UNLESS explicitly shown otherwise.

What? In the long trip of King Yama from India to China to finally Japan, this is how he ended up:



I don't know any world where that looks Indian, and he is dressed in a Chinese fashion too.

Therefore, because they all came from Europe, they are white unless shown otherwise.

Now that they spread to a multicultural world, they should be multicultural, no?

I mean, they have black Jesus, chinese Jesus, white Jesus, if the founder of an entire religion gets such make over, why can't Santa?

Plus, as you can see from wikipedia and pretty much all depictions of him from prior to the 1900s... he has ALWAYS been shown as white.

The same era when it was okay to call a black lady an 'degenerate Hottentot'.

Funny you ignored it.

[God Kefka]

I've already told you. The presumption is that when ethnic group X comes up with a character, that character is assumed to be ethnic group X as well unless explicitly shown otherwise.

This was already addressed.

And it isn't a very good reason.



Really, when I hear all those, I have a Turkish fellow in mind...Anatolian, but that's not the point.



Glad you brought China up because remember that Northern Indian, Nepalese sage, the one they call the Buddha?

Notice how Chinese he looks in China:







What? In the long trip of King Yama from India to China to finally Japan, this is how he ended up:



I don't know any world where that looks Indian, and he is dressed in a Chinese fashion too.



Now that they spread to a multicultural world, they should be multicultural, no?

I mean, they have black Jesus, chinese Jesus, white Jesus, if the founder of an entire religion gets such make over, why can't Santa?



The same era when it was okay to call a black lady an 'degenerate Hottentot'.

Funny you ignored it.

You've shown me nothing that counters the presumption (when whites come up with a legendary figure, he's white unless explicitly shown otherwise).

What you have shown me are some examples where there IS evidence to overturn the presumption. BECAUSE we have statues, drawings, and literature that show the Buddha might not be Chinese, the presumption is overturned and we can no longer assume he is Chinese.

Now show me the drawings, literature, and statues that overturn the presumption that Santa is white (a presumption correctly held because Europeans wrote him up).

[God Kefka]

I've already told you. The presumption is that when ethnic group X comes up with a character, that character is assumed to be ethnic group X as well unless explicitly shown otherwise.

This was already addressed.

And it isn't a very good reason.



Really, when I hear all those, I have a Turkish fellow in mind...Anatolian, but that's not the point.



Glad you brought China up because remember that Northern Indian, Nepalese sage, the one they call the Buddha?

Notice how Chinese he looks in China:







What? In the long trip of King Yama from India to China to finally Japan, this is how he ended up:



I don't know any world where that looks Indian, and he is dressed in a Chinese fashion too.



Now that they spread to a multicultural world, they should be multicultural, no?

I mean, they have black Jesus, chinese Jesus, white Jesus, if the founder of an entire religion gets such make over, why can't Santa?



The same era when it was okay to call a black lady an 'degenerate Hottentot'.

Funny you ignored it.

You've shown me nothing that counters the presumption (when whites come up with a legendary figure, he's white unless explicitly shown otherwise).

What you have shown me are some examples where there IS evidence to overturn the presumption. BECAUSE we have statues, drawings, and literature that show the Buddha might not be Chinese, the presumption is overturned and we can no longer assume he is Chinese.

Now show me the drawings, literature, and statues that overturn the presumption that Santa is white (a presumption correctly held because Europeans wrote him up).

[The Godly Nations]

It is non-material that ''Greeks'' back then were not considered white. It is material that he WAS Greek and that TODAY we would consider Greeks whites. His physical appearance, being attributed to those of a Greek, would have been white in appearance back then even if people back then did not label such a set of physical appearance as white.

It is material that Greeks back then were not restricted to whites, and it does not matter that the meaning changed, because we are speaking about whether Saint Nicholaus and, thus, Sinterklaas was white, which, given that he was Anatolian Greek Speaker, and part of the Hellenosphere in that era, he isn't.

the material facts are that Father Christmas AND Sinterklaas are the most recent interpretations before the cannonical Santa was born (arguably, Father Christmas was the canonical Santa).

Sinterklaas was based on Saint Nicholas, who was Anatolian, and the anthromorphisation of the holiday season did not have any race attached to him personally, because everyone accepted that he wasn't fucking human, he is a representation of Christmas, they probably wouldn't care if they made him a Christian Moor for all that it mattered.

Both of these were conceived by Europeans and all visual depictions of these two specific figures in their historical era...

HAVE BEEN WHITE

Odin wasn't white, Saint Nicholas wasn't White, and neither was Sinterklaas.

A picture is greater than a thousand words, and all of them have shown a white Father Christmas.

http://www.lucylearns.com/images//father-christmas-picture-transparent-gif-santa-claus-clipart-1black-and-white-christmas-clipart.gif

Here's Father Christmas, and, as you can see, he is a printed image, meaning I can colour him whatever the fuck I want.

[God Kefka]

Come to think of it, I've never in my life heard of a single black man complaining about santa being white.

Evidently you don't meet any in real life.

because Santa IS white.

[Mavorpen]

What you have shown me are some examples where there IS evidence to overturn the presumption. BECAUSE we have statues, drawings, and literature that show the Buddha might not be Chinese, the presumption is overturned and we can no longer assume he is Chinese.

Except, Buddha being Chinese isn't a presumption. That's the point.

Now show me the drawings, literature, and statues that overturn the presumption that Santa is white (a presumption correctly held because Europeans wrote him up).

Show me the legends saying he's white.

[Aeken]

Evidently you don't meet any in real life.

because Santa IS white.

I fail to see why it actually matters why he is white or not. It does nothing to the character.

[Mavorpen]

Evidently you don't meet any in real life.

because Santa IS white.

Santa isn't anything.

He doesn't exist.

[Mavorpen]

because Santa IS white.

I fail to see why it actually matters why he is white or not. It does nothing to the character.

He doesn't like black people for some reason.

[God Kefka]

What you have shown me are some examples where there IS evidence to overturn the presumption. BECAUSE we have statues, drawings, and literature that show the Buddha might not be Chinese, the presumption is overturned and we can no longer assume he is Chinese.

Except, Buddha being Chinese isn't a presumption. That's the point.

Now show me the drawings, literature, and statues that overturn the presumption that Santa is white (a presumption correctly held because Europeans wrote him up).

Show me the legends saying he's white.

No, Buddha not being Chinese is an example of the presumption being successfully overturned by evidence, not that the presumption doesn't exist.

Pictures are better then legend...

[God Kefka]

I fail to see why it actually matters why he is white or not. It does nothing to the character.

He doesn't like black people for some reason.

I never said that. And that's neither here nor there.

[God Kefka]

because Santa IS white.

Santa isn't anything.

He doesn't exist.

He has always been white.

Look at all the pictures from before the 1900s... look at the figure of Father Christmas. Look at wikipedia...

[Mavorpen]

No, Buddha not being Chinese is an example of the presumption being successfully overturned by evidence, not that the presumption doesn't exist.

No, it means the presumption doesn't exist.

Since, you know, no archaeologist actually takes such bullshit seriously. "Look, I found a statue of Buddha in China. He must have been Chinese!" isn't what actually happens in the academic world.

Pictures are better then legend...

Which means there is no canon.

Good.

[Mavorpen]

Santa isn't anything.

He doesn't exist.

He has always been white.

Look at all the pictures from before the 1900s... look at the figure of Father Christmas. Look at wikipedia...

I love how you apparently don't know what the word "always" means.

[The Godly Nations]

This was already addressed.

Funny you ignored it.

You've shown me nothing that counters the presumption (when whites come up with a legendary figure, he's white unless explicitly shown otherwise).

What you have shown me are some examples where there IS evidence to overturn the presumption. BECAUSE we have statues, drawings, and literature that show the Buddha might not be Chinese, the presumption is overturned and we can no longer assume he is Chinese.

He was never presumed Chinese. In fact, Han Yu, a Tang Dynasty Chinese Scholar, wrote thus about the Buddha:
"Buddha was a man of the barbarians who did not speak the language of China and wore clothes of a different fashion. His sayings did not concern the ways of our ancient kings, nor did his manner of dress conform to their laws. He understood neither the duties that bind sovereign and subject, nor the affections of father and son."

They never assumed that the Buddha was Chinese, nor did the Buddhist in India have a hissyfit because the Buddha in China looked Chinese, while their Buddha look Indian, and the Bactrian Buddha looks slightly Greek.

Now show me the drawings, literature, and statues that overturn the presumption that Santa is white (a presumption correctly held because Europeans wrote him up).

Here is Butler's 'Lives of Saints' on Saint Nicholas:

...All accounts agree that he was a native of Patara, in Lycia...

[Mavorpen]

He doesn't like black people for some reason.

I never said that. And that's neither here nor there.

Then why do you have a strange fetish for a time when blacks were enslaved?

Why do you think it's a good thing that blacks were never represented as a symbol of joy, giving, etc. during the 1800s?

The only logical conclusion is that you really, really don't enjoy a positive figure being depicted as black.

[Raltirian Denethier]

Also, Saint Nicholas was Greek. Insofar as Greeks are white, Saint Nicholas was white. Yes, he lived in Asia Minor, but we must remember that there were no Turks in what we know as Turkey. The people who would become the Turks were still kicking around modern Turkmenistan (go figure), and Asia Minor was in part populated by Greeks.

So, yes, Santa Claus, Saint Nikolaos (say that really fast, you'll see how that turned into Santa Claus through a number of bastardizations) was a white guy. Her only point was that people need to stop getting all up in arms about non-issues. That is, Santa is white. His traditional image is a white guy. There is nothing wrong with that; he is not depicted beating on people of other colors. He is simply white. That doesn't need to change. That was her only point.

Now let's move on to real news, seriously.

[The Godly Nations]

Also, Saint Nicholas was Greek. Insofar as Greeks are white, Saint Nicholas was white. Yes, he lived in Asia Minor, but we must remember that there were no Turks in what we know as Turkey. The people who would become the Turks were still kicking around modern Turkmenistan (go figure), and Asia Minor was in part populated by Greeks.

So, yes, Santa Claus, Saint Nikolaos (say that really fast, you'll see how that turned into Santa Claus through a number of bastardizations) was a white guy. Her only point was that people need to stop getting all up in arms about non-issues. That is, Santa is white. His traditional image is a white guy. There is nothing wrong with that; he is not depicted beating on people of other colors. He is simply white. That doesn't need to change. That was her only point.

Now let's move on to real news, seriously.

No, Greek didn't mean white, back then, being Greek meant that you were part of the Greek speaking and Greek cultural world, the Hellenosphere, which included parts of North Africa, the Middle East, Anatolia, etc. Augustine, for example, was born in modern day Algeria, and he was still 'Greek'. So, no, Saint Nicholas was not white, we are Anatolian. I think that settles it.

[God Kefka]

Also, Saint Nicholas was Greek. Insofar as Greeks are white, Saint Nicholas was white. Yes, he lived in Asia Minor, but we must remember that there were no Turks in what we know as Turkey. The people who would become the Turks were still kicking around modern Turkmenistan (go figure), and Asia Minor was in part populated by Greeks.

So, yes, Santa Claus, Saint Nikolaos (say that really fast, you'll see how that turned into Santa Claus through a number of bastardizations) was a white guy. Her only point was that people need to stop getting all up in arms about non-issues. That is, Santa is white. His traditional image is a white guy. There is nothing wrong with that; he is not depicted beating on people of other colors. He is simply white. That doesn't need to change. That was her only point.

Now let's move on to real news, seriously.

i agree with this...

[God Kefka]

I never said that. And that's neither here nor there.

Then why do you have a strange fetish for a time when blacks were enslaved?

Why do you think it's a good thing that blacks were never represented as a symbol of joy, giving, etc. during the 1800s?

The only logical conclusion is that you really, really don't enjoy a positive figure being depicted as black.

your personal attacks are neither here nor there...

Santa Claus is white. Look at all the pictures from before the 1900s...

[The Godly Nations]

Also, Saint Nicholas was Greek. Insofar as Greeks are white, Saint Nicholas was white. Yes, he lived in Asia Minor, but we must remember that there were no Turks in what we know as Turkey. The people who would become the Turks were still kicking around modern Turkmenistan (go figure), and Asia Minor was in part populated by Greeks.

So, yes, Santa Claus, Saint Nikolaos (say that really fast, you'll see how that turned into Santa Claus through a number of bastardizations) was a white guy. Her only point was that people need to stop getting all up in arms about non-issues. That is, Santa is white. His traditional image is a white guy. There is nothing wrong with that; he is not depicted beating on people of other colors. He is simply white. That doesn't need to change. That was her only point.

Now let's move on to real news, seriously.

i agree with this...

I presume that you would also agree that black people are only three fifth of a person, that they should be back tending the cotton fields, Chinese should be driven back to China, natives need the guiding hand of the white man to lead them to civilisation and Christiandom, and other such ideas, from the era you seem to fetishise, the eras before the 1950s, an era when Santa was definitely White.