"Santa Claus should be white"

[God Kefka]

I'd call it cultural misappropriation. Trying to take a European legend, a European cultural and fictional treasure... and then co-opt it to a different cultural and ethnic context and claim it as ''universal.''

In the process completely ruining Santa Claus' physical appearance by deviating from the canon...

Because having a chink, negro, spic, wop, paddy, pole, jew, or any one who isn't part of our great Herrenvolk would sully and taint Santa Claus' physical apperance...how?

And deviated definitely from the canon...why?

And if Canon is how Santa was protrayed 'traditionally', that is, circa 1850, shouldn't we then depict all Irish people like this:



You know, for the sake of canon?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm talking about legends... you're talking about real people.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Chinese have always canonically been protrayed as vicious, murdering, opium-addled rapists looking for summadat white flesh.

They always have been canonically protrayed as such.

There is no special reason to doubt that they are vicious, murdering, opium-addled rapists lusting after the purest white maiden, excepting that little thing called reality.

I am quite disgusted that you should think so. But what has this got to do with my point?

I am surprise that you don't think that we should keep the 'canonical' depiction of Chinese people as the 'Yellow Peril', but you think Santa should be kept white for the sake of canonicity.

[God Kefka]

I am quite disgusted that you should think so. But what has this got to do with my point?

I am surprise that you don't think that we should keep the 'canonical' depiction of Chinese people as the 'Yellow Peril', but you think Santa should be kept white for the sake of canonicity.

Santa's an artistic creation. The Chinese are real people.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Because having a chink, negro, spic, wop, paddy, pole, jew, or any one who isn't part of our great Herrenvolk would sully and taint Santa Claus' physical apperance...how?

And deviated definitely from the canon...why?

And if Canon is how Santa was protrayed 'traditionally', that is, circa 1850, shouldn't we then depict all Irish people like this:

(Image)

You know, for the sake of canon?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm talking about legends... you're talking about real people.

I am not, you, being a big fan of canonicity, somehow think that we can let go of out-dated and frankly racist canonical depiction of Chinese and Irish as subhuman, and keep in mind that these are fictional depictions, but think that Santa should be kept the purest Aryan, because otherwise it would 'spoil' his image. Why do you reject one depiction as such, and not the other? Both originate from the same period, and have persisted for a very long while, long enough, that is to say, to be 'canonical'.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

I am surprise that you don't think that we should keep the 'canonical' depiction of Chinese people as the 'Yellow Peril', but you think Santa should be kept white for the sake of canonicity.

Santa's an artistic creation. The Chinese are real people.

Then all the more reason to allow greater freedom in depicting Santa. There is no more canon of Santa, then there is of Chinese people, if you are prepared to accept a Santa 'canon', because that is how he is traditionally depicted, then accept that your argument can be made for a 'Yellow Peril' Chinaman, a 'Golliwog' Black man, or a simian Paddy Irishman.

[God Kefka]

You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm talking about legends... you're talking about real people.

I am not, you, being a big fan of canonicity, somehow think that we can let go of out-dated and frankly racist canonical depiction of Chinese and Irish as subhuman, and keep in mind that these are fictional depictions, but think that Santa should be kept the purest Aryan, because otherwise it would 'spoil' his image. Why do you reject one depiction as such, and not the other? Both originate from the same period, and have persisted for a very long while, long enough, that is to say, to be 'canonical'.

I hate to break it to you...

The Chinese and the Irish are REAL people. Santa Claus is not.

There is no ''cannon'' of the Chinese and Irish, there is a history of facts for each and everyone of them. So I don't see what you're even getting at. In fact, if anything, those pictures of Irishmen as apes and Chinese as whatever... can probably be likened to examples where Europeans participated in cultural misappropriation (and clearly factual twisting).

It's not remotely comparable to Santa Claus...

[God Kefka]

Santa's an artistic creation. The Chinese are real people.

Then all the more reason to allow greater freedom in depicting Santa. There is no more canon of Santa, then there is of Chinese people, if you are prepared to accept a Santa 'canon', because that is how he is traditionally depicted, then accept that your argument can be made for a 'Yellow Peril' Chinaman, a 'Golliwog' Black man, or a simian Paddy Irishman.

there is a canon... Santa is a European legend.

The Chinese and the Irish are not legends, they are actual people with actual histories (and any attempt to de-humanize them or allege incorrect facts to them is factual misrepresentation).

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

I am not, you, being a big fan of canonicity, somehow think that we can let go of out-dated and frankly racist canonical depiction of Chinese and Irish as subhuman, and keep in mind that these are fictional depictions, but think that Santa should be kept the purest Aryan, because otherwise it would 'spoil' his image. Why do you reject one depiction as such, and not the other? Both originate from the same period, and have persisted for a very long while, long enough, that is to say, to be 'canonical'.

I hate to break it to you...

The Chinese and the Irish are REAL people. Santa Claus is not.

Why, then, bitch about a fictious canon as if Santa is as real as I am, and so endowed with an actual race?

There is no ''cannon'' of the Chinese and Irish, there is a history of facts for each and everyone of them. So I don't see what you're even getting at. In fact, if anything, those pictures of Irishmen as apes and Chinese as whatever... can probably be likened to examples where Europeans participated in cultural misappropriation (and clearly factual twisting).

There is a 'canonical' depiction of the Chinaman and Paddy Irishman in western media, just as there is a 'canonical' depiction of Santa, and the idea of these foriegners being boogeymen may be something in itself a legend of sorts, in that it is a narrative to explain events or occurances within their society and their society itself.

So, having met both your requirement, why should Santa, a fictional character, keep to a strict image as Aryan, red suit, and fat man, when we evolve out of Yellow Peril Chinaman (with the exception of Fu Manchu and Ming the Merciless, who are now used ironically rather than as actual depiction of Chinese people)?

It's not remotely comparable to Santa Claus...

Prove it without disproving your own point that Santa must be white.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Then all the more reason to allow greater freedom in depicting Santa. There is no more canon of Santa, then there is of Chinese people, if you are prepared to accept a Santa 'canon', because that is how he is traditionally depicted, then accept that your argument can be made for a 'Yellow Peril' Chinaman, a 'Golliwog' Black man, or a simian Paddy Irishman.

there is a canon... Santa is a European legend.

The Chinese and the Irish are not legends, they are actual people with actual histories (and any attempt to de-humanize them or allege incorrect facts to them is factual misrepresentation).

Yes, they are both Anglo-American legends, in that both race serve as a boogeymen of sorts for their society to blame their ills upon. Why should Santa, whose origins come from Asia Minor and the Orient, suddenly be kept white, despite lack of any connexion at all to reality, when the depiction of Irish people as Apes and Chinese people as rapist druggies are dropt because of their lack of connexion to reality?

[God Kefka]

there is a canon... Santa is a European legend.

The Chinese and the Irish are not legends, they are actual people with actual histories (and any attempt to de-humanize them or allege incorrect facts to them is factual misrepresentation).

Yes, they are both Anglo-American legends, in that both race serve as a boogeymen of sorts for their society to blame their ills upon. Why should Santa, whose origins come from Asia Minor and the Orient, suddenly be kept white, despite lack of any connexion at all to reality, when the depiction of Irish people as Apes and Chinese people as rapist druggies are dropt because of their lack of connexion to reality?

Santa was born in Europe... Europe is the first to put it all together. And they imagined a white man...

THAT is the key.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Yes, they are both Anglo-American legends, in that both race serve as a boogeymen of sorts for their society to blame their ills upon. Why should Santa, whose origins come from Asia Minor and the Orient, suddenly be kept white, despite lack of any connexion at all to reality, when the depiction of Irish people as Apes and Chinese people as rapist druggies are dropt because of their lack of connexion to reality?

Santa was born in Europe... Europe is the first to put it all together. And they imagined a white man...

THAT is the key.

Santa is a fictional character, he can be depicted however the artist wants, they imagined Chinese people as druggie rapists, and Irish people as fucking apes, their opinion has no bearing on how we should depict him, nor is what they think 'canon'. Proof, we no longer find the Golliwog an acceptable depiction of Africans, and Little Black Sambo as an appropiate depiction of an Indian.

[Aeken]

Yes, they are both Anglo-American legends, in that both race serve as a boogeymen of sorts for their society to blame their ills upon. Why should Santa, whose origins come from Asia Minor and the Orient, suddenly be kept white, despite lack of any connexion at all to reality, when the depiction of Irish people as Apes and Chinese people as rapist druggies are dropt because of their lack of connexion to reality?

Santa was born in Europe... Europe is the first to put it all together. And they imagined a white man...

THAT is the key.

A site that is about Santa 'canon' disagrees.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/origin-of-santa/

[God Kefka]

Santa was born in Europe... Europe is the first to put it all together. And they imagined a white man...

THAT is the key.

A site that is about Santa 'canon' disagrees.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/origin-of-santa/

the site does nothing EXCEPT talk about the contributions of Europeans and European settlers in concretizing the legend... what are you talking about?

It's like... all it does...

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

A site that is about Santa 'canon' disagrees.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/origin-of-santa/

the site mentions does nothing except talk about the contributions of Europeans and European settlers in concretizing the legend... what are you talking about?

St. Nicholas and Odin were from Anatolia, and Christmas itself was a holiday in celebration of Jesus, from the Orient, meaning both had dark skin, at least darker than the fair, Aryan Santa you seem keen on keeping, and are disturbed if changed.

[God Kefka]

Santa was born in Europe... Europe is the first to put it all together. And they imagined a white man...

THAT is the key.

Santa is a fictional character, he can be depicted however the artist wants, they imagined Chinese people as druggie rapists, and Irish people as fucking apes, their opinion has no bearing on how we should depict him, nor is what they think 'canon'. Proof, we no longer find the Golliwog an acceptable depiction of Africans, and Little Black Sambo as an appropiate depiction of an Indian.

Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem. The portrayals such as the ones you bring up are not considered as such and so I'm not concerned with them...

[God Kefka]

the site mentions does nothing except talk about the contributions of Europeans and European settlers in concretizing the legend... what are you talking about?

St. Nicholas and Odin were from Anatolia, and Christmas itself was a holiday in celebration of Jesus, from the Orient, meaning both had dark skin, at least darker than the fair, Aryan Santa you seem keen on keeping, and are disturbed if changed.

Neither St. Nicholas nor Odin by himself was Santa though. Santa Claus was only born when all of the canonical sources have been synthesized into a recognizable modern entity (incorporating Sinterklass, Father Christmas and many other European legends). When THAT first complete and canonical version of Santa was born, in the 1800s, everyone imagined and depicted a white man.

THAT is the key.

[Aeken]

A site that is about Santa 'canon' disagrees.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/origin-of-santa/

the site does nothing EXCEPT talk about the contributions of Europeans and European settlers in concretizing the legend... what are you talking about?

It's like... all it does...

You must not be paying attention to details.

1821 brought some new elements with publication of the first lithographed book in America, the Children's Friend. This "Sante Claus" arrived from the North in a sleigh with a flying reindeer. The anonymous poem and illustrations proved pivotal in shifting imagery away from a saintly bishop.

Americans made Santa Claus.

[God Kefka]

the site does nothing EXCEPT talk about the contributions of Europeans and European settlers in concretizing the legend... what are you talking about?

It's like... all it does...

You must not be paying attention to details.

1821 brought some new elements with publication of the first lithographed book in America, the Children's Friend. This "Sante Claus" arrived from the North in a sleigh with a flying reindeer. The anonymous poem and illustrations proved pivotal in shifting imagery away from a saintly bishop.

Americans made Santa Claus.

Americans are Europeans...

and in 1821, they were imagining and depicting a white Santa universally...

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Santa is a fictional character, he can be depicted however the artist wants, they imagined Chinese people as druggie rapists, and Irish people as fucking apes, their opinion has no bearing on how we should depict him, nor is what they think 'canon'. Proof, we no longer find the Golliwog an acceptable depiction of Africans, and Little Black Sambo as an appropiate depiction of an Indian.

Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem. The portrayals such as the ones you bring up are not considered as such and so I'm not concerned with them...

So, Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem...how? And why does this immediately prevent him from being depicted as other than white when Jesus, who have a much more profound impact on European thought and culture, can be depicted as Asian, Black, Arab, or Hispanic?


And why is Santa Claus' depiction as white canonical, when 'the Terrifying Yellow Peril', the Golliwog, Little Black Sambo, Paddy Irishman, and all those 'cultural and artistic gems' can be casted away as a terrifying reminder of our society's racism?

[God Kefka]

Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem. The portrayals such as the ones you bring up are not considered as such and so I'm not concerned with them...

So, Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem...how? And why does this immediately prevent him from being depicted as other than white when Jesus, who have a much more profound impact on European thought and culture, can be depicted as Asian, Black, Arab, or Hispanic?


And why is Santa Claus' depiction as white canonical, when 'the Terrifying Yellow Peril', the Golliwog, Little Black Sambo, Paddy Irishman, and all those 'cultural and artistic gems' can be casted away as a terrifying reminder of our society's racism?

Only when something is an artistic and cultural gem should we be concerned about cultural misappropriation...

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

You must not be paying attention to details.

Americans made Santa Claus.

Americans are Europeans...

Well, fuck me, I've been living in America all my life, and this is the first time I've heard of us being connected to the European continent. Fuck, I think now I'll drive my Car to Paris.

[Aeken]

You must not be paying attention to details.

Americans made Santa Claus.

Americans are Europeans...

You are really desperate to say that.

[God Kefka]

Americans are Europeans...

Well, fuck me, I've been living in America all my life, and this is the first time I've heard of us being connected to the European continent. Fuck, I think now I'll drive my Car to Paris.

The vast majority of people in America trace their immediate ancestry back to Europe, even today so... culturally they are linked.

[Gauthier]

So, Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem...how? And why does this immediately prevent him from being depicted as other than white when Jesus, who have a much more profound impact on European thought and culture, can be depicted as Asian, Black, Arab, or Hispanic?


And why is Santa Claus' depiction as white canonical, when 'the Terrifying Yellow Peril', the Golliwog, Little Black Sambo, Paddy Irishman, and all those 'cultural and artistic gems' can be casted away as a terrifying reminder of our society's racism?

Only when something is an artistic and cultural gem should we be concerned about cultural misappropriation...

Translation: If it's a positive image, it belongs to whites. If it's a negative image, the darkies can have it.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

So, Santa Claus is a cultural and artistic gem...how? And why does this immediately prevent him from being depicted as other than white when Jesus, who have a much more profound impact on European thought and culture, can be depicted as Asian, Black, Arab, or Hispanic?


And why is Santa Claus' depiction as white canonical, when 'the Terrifying Yellow Peril', the Golliwog, Little Black Sambo, Paddy Irishman, and all those 'cultural and artistic gems' can be casted away as a terrifying reminder of our society's racism?

Only when something is an artistic and cultural gem should we be concerned about cultural misappropriation...

So, something like this:



Isn't an artistic and cultural gem.

But something like this:



is.